Eegie's 2nd Day - AMPS=251; +4=135 - But I'm concerned

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Sgans and Eegie - GA

Sgans and Eegie - GA

Member Since 2015
Hi guys. Just started yesterday with insulin. Normally, I'd love these numbers, but I'm very worried it's too soon! Yesterday morning (different meter) he measured AMPS=440; +5=338; +8.5=458; PMPS=341. That seemed normal.

Today AMPS =251; +4=135; +8 (just taken)=119!

Today's numbers seem too low to me... but I have no clue - I'm so new! He gets 1 unit of Lantus 2x/day. Should I bring it down to .75 (if I can see it), or .5, or stay the course?
 
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How much does Eegie weigh?

I know there is a formula to determine what the starting dose should, but I also think that many here start out at .25 or .5 and increase based on protocol. I don't know enough about starting dose to really give you advice, but I agree it seems like he is coming down really quickly, although if the readings were from different meters that can make all the difference. I started testing Sammy on one meter and then switched and there was a huge difference in the numbers.

So my advice is to pick one meter and stick with it and don't stress yourself out by testing on different meters. Collect data and use that data to make dosing decision.
 
Hi and welcome to you. Those are great numbers for starting. Normal numbers using a human meter are 50-120 if you are following TR but higher if SLGS so we need to know which you plan to follow if you know that. Eerie probably did nadir, reach his lowest point, lower than your +4 as nadir is usually at 5-7 hours after injection. You are getting a good response so it's important to get a test 15 minutes before injecting and post for dosing advice if that number is under 200. I would also read the sticky on shooting low numbers and what to do if he drops under 50. Do you have karo and food with gravy which is high carbs should that happen? Plenty of people will be around to guide you when that happens. You have come to the best place.
 
I would have loved to see where he was at about +6 or +7, but it's great that he got into blues so soon!

As long as he's above 200 at PMPS, I'd shoot the 1 unit again, but you do need to try to get some tests in on the PM cycle...at least a "before bed" test. Most cats go lower at night, so it can let you know if you need to set an alarm to get more tests in later

It takes 5-7 days to "Fill the depot" so you're still not seeing the full effect of this dose...He may need to be reduced if he keeps up like this!
 
Eegie's about 11 lbs and all pages say (and my vet says) to start with 1 unit 2x/day. I was working in between the tests, so no way to test him then.
I'm planning on using the TR method, so I used settings based on his "ideal" weight of 10 lbs (about 4.5kg) and the instructions are "the formula is 0.25 unit per kg of the cat's ideal weight"

Next dosing is supposed to be at about 10pm PDT, so I can test in about 1/2 hour and hope to get dosing advice in time.

Chris - that is the before bed test - our schedule changes so much and I work so early sometimes, that 10am-10pm was set up so I could get to bed to work so early... Since our schedule changes so drastically day by day, that was the only time we could be pretty sure to get the doses in at 12 hour intervals...

But If he's over 200 in 1/2 hour, I'll do the 2unit... then, actually, I have to go to bed...

I can't physically get up in the middle of the night to test - long story - just can't do so...

I'll report in in about 1/2 hour to 45 minutes with numbers and hope to get dosing advice...

Thank you.
 
On this forum, the Lantus/Lev group, we suggest new members don't shoot below 150 til they've asked for help. Since you are shooting and going to bed, and can't test at night (there are others who can't also), you're going to probably want to be more conservative. Those are great numbers today, but not for day 2 on insulin when you can't monitor him at night.

I'm going to suggest that you get a timed feeder asap. That's going to help manage him being alone for long hours.

For tonight, if you can't monitor, I think I"d skip the shot and restart in the morning. If he's still dropping please leave regular low carb food out for him to have available.

Do you mean 2u below?

Sgans said:
But If he's over 200 in 1/2 hour, I'll do the 2unit... then, actually, I have to go to bed...
Click to expand...

I would consider decreasing his dose in the morning. It's better to have him running higher than to get too low and be unattended and without food.
 
Thank you. I meant if his count is over 200, in reference to what Cheos wrote. I agree, this is too fast.

Also, Eegie eats raw food. He has IBD. I can't use a timed feeder.

If it's not up pmps, I'm going to skip and feed. If it's higher, I may go 1/2 dose.
 
Hello and welcome. My Neko is on raw food too. I use the Petsafe 5 feeder. It has a spot under the feeder tray for an ice pack which keeps the raw food cool enough that I can leave it in the feeder. You can also add an ice cube that melts and adds water - always a good thing for a diabetic.
 
Eegie eats every 4-5 hours though out the day- also has been on raw diet for quite some time now due to other health issues- steroid shots have been used in the past for prior health problems- Vet is on board for home testing and Steph is learning this dance very quickly :) So proud of you for taking control and learning thinks literally over the weekend :)
 
Wendy, thank you. Id never heard of that. I have a 3 cat 2 dog household. Home has no place to separate Eegie all day (if I don't want to completely stress him). Eegie would never get to the food. But I'd get that for when I have to go out all day, and then let him be stressed just then. Thanks for that info. I had no idea that existed.
 
You can get the feeder at Petsmart (at least in Canada) and online at Amazon. Maybe multiple feeders, one per cat, that all go off at the same time?

I just read Eeegie's history and see that he's on Duralactin. I just started Neko on that a couple of months ago for her arthritis. How is it working for Eegie?
 
Chris - it changes daily. I teach from home tomorrow - but it's like being in a regular live classroom. Timing is not as flexible as I'd like all the time. That's why we picked the timing we did...
Wendy - Duralactin's been in use for a LONG time - but for him it's for IBD control - it's soothing and working as a sort of probiotic in his intestines. For that, it's been very helpful - but we use it in combination with lots of therapies. I've heard it's helpful for arthritis, and Eegie has some of that in his elbows, but I haven't paid attention to how well it's affected that area for him.... I'll see if I can notice that more and report back on it. It's good stuff though - easy to give and cheap on Amazon.

At 163, I chose to skip the dose, as I can't monitor at night. I'll see what the AMPS reading is, and probably start with .25 unit if I'm over 200 and maybe .5 unit if I'm over 300 - if over 400.... I'll have to see - but he started yesterday morning at 440.

The feeding is mostly not an issue - he does get fed regularly - just not at night - and he doesn't seem to have cravings. There is some kibble for the other cats down at night, but he doesn't go for it. He loves his diet when he does, then will change his whims at the drop of a hat (part of the IBD).

But I'm always going to do the best I can for my boy - I just may not always be able to do all that everybody manages to do, timewise. I'm hear to learn and get educated and suggestions - I thank you for them.

Tomorrow, I'm going to try to get readings at different + times to see how his spread goes... I just got worried - didn't know it was acceptable to make the choice to skip a dose if I'm concerned... today, thanks to some VERY helpful advice and support, I know I can go to sleep and feel like my baby is safe. Thanks.
 
Stephanie,

I know you said you wanted to try to follow TR, but if you can't monitor at night at all then you might want to consider SLGS instead. This might give you a bit more time to react to changes, and it shouldn't send Eegie low so quickly.

The 1 unit dose might work for you this morning, but you might be in the same predicament tonight with a lower PS. I don't know enough about dosing to really give you definitive advice, but you might still want to drop down to .5 or even .25 so that you can get a better handle on how Eegie is reacting to the insulin, especially if you can't monitor as often.

Maybe @Wendy&Neko, @julie & punkin (ga), @Jill & Alex (GA), @Chris & China, @Sienne and Gabby; @Marje and Gracie would be able to give you better advice on where to take the dose if you end up with a lower PS tonight, but lets just see where Eegie goes today.
 
+3 is 189

Tina, you may be right. I didn't realize that I had to do all-nighters or such very specific hours to do TR. Although - I do want a quick response - Eegie's still ill, and my main goal is to get him to some kind of stasis in 3 weeks to a month to see if we're going to be able to consider chemo. So, I'm thinking of taking the best of both worlds and finding something that works.

I'm going to try to do a +6 an d+9 today - see if I can see a bit of a trend. I love low - but so low so fast... that's my concern. Once I get more data on him, I'll be able to maybe follow the dosing... I guess I'll know more PAMP tonight...

I'm sure everyone here has specific ideas, and I want to hear them all. Eegie's undergone so many treatments and had so many issues, I do have a very good sense of him and his reactions... so I may have to either be more careful because of his precarious health balance, or I may be able to trust my instincts more - once I have enough data to develop those instincts....
Oy!

Thank you!!!
 
I know how hard the scheduling can be Stephanie! We've changed schedules several times over the past couple of years to try to find one that works for us!

I am NOT a morning person, so when we first started, I figured I could shoot at 11am/11pm and we'd do fine...well after China dropped too low a few times overnight and I ended up being up until 5-6 the next morning, I decided that there were worst things than getting up early......LOL

We switched to 6am/6pm and that's worked well for us. I still hate getting up in the morning, but usually I can test/feed/shoot and hardly even wake up....then I can go back to bed for awhile! It's also nice that when I shoot at 6pm, it's no big deal for me to stay up until midnight and get a +6 ...by then, usually she's at her nadir and I don't have to worry about staying up all night testing.

It will be important for you to get some tests in on the PM cycle though, so if you can change your shooting schedule to an earlier time, it'll really help in figuring out how to get Eegor regulated as well as keeping him safe.

We each just have to do the best we can and find what works best for us though!!

On a happier note, he does seem to be responding well...we see lots of cats that never see a hint of blue for a very long time, so that's great that he's hitting blue so soon
 
I think given your set of circumstances, without being able to test in the pm cycle when many cats have their lowest numbers, and with having dry food out for the other cats, the only dosing option that's going to work for you is to follow the Start Low Go Slow dosing method. With that, your starting dose is determined by whether or not there is ANY dry food in the cat's diet. I'd think if you have dry food available for your other pets, we have to assume that Eegor can get into it as well. We've had plenty of times when people have thought their cat wasn't interested in the other pet's dry food, only to find that in fact, it was irresistible and they were having a bite here or there. We know from people's reports that in some cats, even 3 pieces of kibble will raise the cat's blood sugar by 100's of points and keep it high for another day.

Starting Dose
  • 1u BID if kitty is not on a wet/canned low carb diet
  • 0.5u BID if kitty has been switched to a wet/canned low carb diet

Sgans said:
I'll see what the AMPS reading is, and probably start with .25 unit if I'm over 200 and maybe .5 unit if I'm over 300 - if over 400.... I'll have to see - but he started yesterday morning at 440.
Click to expand...
Once you have a starting dose, just fyi, we don't change the dose based upon the preshot numbers unless the cat is too low to shoot. Lantus and Levemir are both dosed based upon how LOW the dose takes the cat. The low point is typically somewhere around the middle of the cycle in most cats, which is the reason for the suggestion to get a test mid-cycle. Mid-cycle doesn't mean +6 - it means somewhere in between the shots. The preshot tests are often the highest in the cycle - but they don't determine the dose.
 
by the way, tomorrow when you post would you start a new thread? To avoid a mass of confusion, we suggest everyone start one new thread each day. It's the best way to get accurate advice.
 
Chris & China said:
I know how hard the scheduling can be Stephanie! We've changed schedules several times over the past couple of years to try to find one that works for us!

I am NOT a morning person, so when we first started, I figured I could shoot at 11am/11pm and we'd do fine...well after China dropped too low a few times overnight and I ended up being up until 5-6 the next morning, I decided that there were worst things than getting up early......LOL

We switched to 6am/6pm and that's worked well for us. I still hate getting up in the morning, but usually I can test/feed/shoot and hardly even wake up....then I can go back to bed for awhile! It's also nice that when I shoot at 6pm, it's no big deal for me to stay up until midnight and get a +6 ...by then, usually she's at her nadir and I don't have to worry about staying up all night testing.

It will be important for you to get some tests in on the PM cycle though, so if you can change your shooting schedule to an earlier time, it'll really help in figuring out how to get Eegor regulated as well as keeping him safe.

We each just have to do the best we can and find what works best for us though!!

On a happier note, he does seem to be responding well...we see lots of cats that never see a hint of blue for a very long time, so that's great that he's hitting blue so soon
Click to expand...


Chris - for me, it's not hate - I DO hate it, but it's health. I can't do it. This way, on the days I'm forced to get up early for work, I can do so without getting sick and shoot at "lunch" time, on days I'm off, we're always up at 10, so it's time for me to get healthy again. I can't help Eegie if I'm not well...
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
I think given your set of circumstances, without being able to test in the pm cycle when many cats have their lowest numbers, and with having dry food out for the other cats, the only dosing option that's going to work for you is to follow the Start Low Go Slow dosing method. With that, your starting dose is determined by whether or not there is ANY dry food in the cat's diet. I'd think if you have dry food available for your other pets, we have to assume that Eegor can get into it as well. We've had plenty of times when people have thought their cat wasn't interested in the other pet's dry food, only to find that in fact, it was irresistible and they were having a bite here or there. We know from people's reports that in some cats, even 3 pieces of kibble will raise the cat's blood sugar by 100's of points and keep it high for another day.

Starting Dose
  • 1u BID if kitty is not on a wet/canned low carb diet
  • 0.5u BID if kitty has been switched to a wet/canned low carb diet


Once you have a starting dose, just fyi, we don't change the dose based upon the preshot numbers unless the cat is too low to shoot. Lantus and Levemir are both dosed based upon how LOW the dose takes the cat. The low point is typically somewhere around the middle of the cycle in most cats, which is the reason for the suggestion to get a test mid-cycle. Mid-cycle doesn't mean +6 - it means somewhere in between the shots. The preshot tests are often the highest in the cycle - but they don't determine the dose.
Click to expand...

Thank you for that clarification. I do know Eegie's not going to the dry food - we've been living with IBD for over a year. He won't touch the stuff. No question. We've even switched brands recently, and he still won't eat it. And,it's often picked up at night so my baby cat doesn't get fat.

I do believe I'll be lowering his dosage and going more toward the SLGS method - but there are so many issues to consider with him... I'm hoping for faster results, and a way to manage that, because we have a time deadline due to his lung tumor. I really want to be in position in 3-4 weeks to make a determination.

I do plan on posting my numbers on a new thread, Julie. I'm just in CA, and everybody's asleep when my day ends, so I added on to here. When I do PM dose, it's 1am East Coast.
Unless you guys thing I should just post my AM info daily... I can do that... or what would you all prefer?
 
There's no set way to post. Most people post their amps and then if they get back online they add tests throughout the day. The main idea is to keep each thread to one day - we have people all over the world that post whenever their day starts. You choose whatever works for you. You also don't have to post every day, although it can be helpful when you're starting out so people can see what's going on and give you a hand.

Getting a cat regulated is typically not a fast process. Some newly diagnosed cats get regulated and go off of insulin in a couple of weeks - all they needed was a switch to low carb food and a little help with some injected insulin. Many cats need more time than that, however. No way to know what Eegie is going to do. This is very much a one-step at a time process.
 
Thank you, Julie - I'll start a new post now with today's numbers so far.
On review - I think you're right - SLGS does seem safer in any event. My work may take me out of the house for longer periods on some days (I'm freelance, but have to take the work as I can get it). I suppose the slower method is safer. He's responding so well to 1 unit, I think he may do okay with .5units 2x/day. If his numbers today reflect what was happening yesterday, I think tonight'll be 1/2 unit, instead of no dose. I'll post another post now. Thanks!
 
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