Edwin dosing questions, new diagnosis

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BJM said:
Might depend on the glycemic index of the carbohydrate source(s). Some carbs are more easily digestible than others and can shoot up the glucose quickly; others are a bit slower.
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The glycemic index could definitely make a difference. I hadn't thought of that. Do you know of a place where glycemic index data on cat foods is available? Tanya's CRF site doesn't include that data and neither does the Cat Info site. Is there somewhere else to look for that information? I've goggled about a bit, but you have all the good links. ;)

In addition, he hasn't had access to the possibly offending food for over 7 hours. His AMPS was still 386. The vet said that as long as he continues to act normal that there is no need to bring him in. I'm just hoping that his BG drops soon.

At AMPS gave short 0.5 u, a bit more than normal, AMPS +2 215, will watch closely and test at +4 and +6 to make sure I haven't tipped him over.
 
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ursa68 said:
I emailed them just now to ask about the fish, in case you don't get a chance to call. I've been communicating with one of their salespeople, Jen.
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I finally called Young Again and asked about the Zero Carb Mature Health. No fish, as they are concerned about iodine levels. They're sending me a sample. Let's see if Edwin likes it and if it spikes his BG numbers or not. Thanks again for that spreadsheet.

His numbers are continuing to come down AMPS +3 189. So much better than those icky 400s.
 
That's good. For some reason, they never got back to my email question about the fish. Colby loved it at first, and then didn't want any. But that's just the way he's been lately. Who knows....
 
ursa68 said:
That's good. For some reason, they never got back to my email question about the fish. Colby loved it at first, and then didn't want any. But that's just the way he's been lately. Who knows....
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Cat's can be so goofy about food. Edwin has done that with a number of canned foods. One day it's his favorite. The next day he won't touch it. Same thing with toys and scratching posts. That's why I now only buy toys that I'll enjoy playing with after he's done with them. That'll learn him.
 
Update on Edwin:

BG numbers have finally returned to the levels they were at before trying to switch food. I received the sample pack of the Young Again Zero Carb Mature Health food and will try it as soon as he's been stable a bit longer.

I went to the vet today as something else strange started right after the night I tried to switch his food. His stomach has been swollen hard and distended. He's also been doing that crouch that cats do when they're uncomfortable. Just in the past day or two his belly has started to soften a bit and he seems less uncomfortable, but it's still a bit worrisome. The vet did an ultrasound to check for fluid or masses. (After losing his sister years ago to FIP I'm a tad paranoid. I totally didn't wake up last night and shake him a bit to make sure he was still breathing. I thought I got that behavior stopped years ago.)

Anyways, no fluid or masses on the ultrasound or felt by the vet. He has lost some weight so maybe just the loss of some muscle tone around his belly? Hopefully the forti flora will get him eating a bit more. He's still eating, but perhaps a bit less. That and his breath smells like rotting garbage (starting at the same time as the swollen belly). I checked in his mouth and the vet checked too, but neither of us saw anything strange.

Hopefully he'll continue to be stable and possibly put on a bit of the lost weight. I'm also considering starting him on B12 (methylcobalamin) supplements for appetite and his kidneys. The vet is double checking to make sure that B12 won't interfere with his other meds and issues. Edwin is still happy and seems to be enjoying himself. He is 16 1/2 years old, so I'm just looking to keep him feeling happy and comfortable a bit longer.
 
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I'm sorry to hear that Edwin is having trouble. I know that crouch you're referring to, all too well! I guess the vet ruled out pancreatitis? I don't know about the swelling, but that could definitely cause some discomfort. The forti flora has been a life saver at my house. My Colby gets an B12 injection every week, and I was giving the Zobaline (which has folic acid and methylcobalamin). May I ask, what is the Bach flower remedy for? Is Edwin a nervous cat? Or is there some other reason you are using it?

Hopefully, Edwin will be feeling better soon!
 
ursa68 said:
I'm sorry to hear that Edwin is having trouble. I know that crouch you're referring to, all too well! I guess the vet ruled out pancreatitis? I don't know about the swelling, but that could definitely cause some discomfort. The forti flora has been a life saver at my house. My Colby gets an B12 injection every week, and I was giving the Zobaline (which has folic acid and methylcobalamin). May I ask, what is the Bach flower remedy for? Is Edwin a nervous cat? Or is there some other reason you are using it?

Hopefully, Edwin will be feeling better soon!
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Edwin seems to be feeling better today. He ate well last night, his BG is looking good, and his stomach is feeling less swollen and hard. I assume the vet ruled out pancreatitis during the ultrasound, but she didn't do any blood work. He did have the full senior blood work up last month.

The discomfort of just a swollen stomach (no pancreatitis) is something I have personal experience with. It's very unpleasant. I haven't seen Edwin doing the pain crouch today so I think we're moving in the right direction.

Did you give Colby the the B12 injections or is that something your vet does? I have some capsules of methylcobalamin that I'll probably just add to his canned food.

As far as the Bach flower remedy, Edwin has always been a bit of a 'fraidy cat. I have a calming collar on him and sometimes use feliway spray too. A few months ago he licked all the fur off his front leg from pain. I started using Bach's Rescue Remedy regularly at that point.

When it became clear that I was going to be adding Bach's for a longer period of time, I purchased some of the individual remedies. It's advised that if you are going to use Bach's remedies long term that you do a mix of specific remedies instead of the broad rescue remedy mix. The information on what specific remedies address in pets can be found here. Crab apple, in particular, is very good for cats who are over grooming (after licking the fur off his arm Edwin started licking some othe spots) or have rashes.

Since using the specific blend of Bach's, Edwin has stopped licking bald patches. Making a mix is easy. A 30 ml dropper bottle, two drops of each remedy (up to 6-7 kinds), 1 tsp of glycerin, and fill the rest with water. I purchased some of the individual remedies from http://www.luckyvitamin.com . They sell them for half the price of getting them directly from Bach's. I also made a mix for myself using the human remedy references found here.

If you're interested in trying a specific mix for your cat, or you, let me know. Just give me a list of the specific remedies that address the issues at hand and, if I have those remedies, I'll mix you up a batch and send it to you. I've used Bach's Rescue Remedy for years (on myself, my cat, friends, and family members) and am a big believer in it.
 
I have a forum politeness question. Now that Edwin has been on Lantus for over three weeks, should I move to posting updates on the Lantus forum and stop posting here on the main forum?
 
bsmith said:
Did you give Colby the the B12 injections or is that something your vet does? I have some capsules of methylcobalamin that I'll probably just add to his canned food.
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I'm happy to hear that Edwin is feeling better tonight. Yes, I give Colby the B12 injections myself. The vet gave me a bottle of it. If I understand correctly, regular B12 is good for pancreas problems, but the methylcobalamin is good for diabetic neuropathy. I'm pretty sure the injections I'm giving are just regular B12, and that the other doesn't come in an injectable form.... at least that's what I think I read somewhere.

bsmith said:
As far as the Bach flower remedy, Edwin has always been a bit of a 'fraidy cat. I have a calming collar on him and sometimes use feliway spray too. A few months ago he licked all the fur off his front leg from pain. I started using Bach's Rescue Remedy regularly at that point.
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I read some about the Bach flower essences many years ago when I had an extremely shy dog. I never did try them. Both my sister and I have neurotic cats (mine is not the diabetic one) that tend to get picked on by the other cats in the household. Hers licks his fur off his legs and stomach. Both kitties have had idiopathic cystitis. I tried the calming collars and the Feliway spray once. I really couldn't tell if it helped, but may give it a try again. The thing is, I wasn't sure who to put it on... the cat who was picked on, or the cat who was doing the bullying! Thanks for all the info on the essences and for offering to send me some! I may take you up on that! I really think all 5 of my cats could stand some calming. My dog and Colby are about the most normal, well adjusted animals in the house (including myself!). Does the glycerin that you mix it with have any effect on Edwin's blood glucose?
 
ursa68 said:
I'm happy to hear that Edwin is feeling better tonight. Yes, I give Colby the B12 injections myself. The vet gave me a bottle of it. If I understand correctly, regular B12 is good for pancreas problems, but the methylcobalamin is good for diabetic neuropathy. I'm pretty sure the injections I'm giving are just regular B12, and that the other doesn't come in an injectable form.... at least that's what I think I read somewhere.



I read some about the Bach flower essences many years ago when I had an extremely shy dog. I never did try them. Both my sister and I have neurotic cats (mine is not the diabetic one) that tend to get picked on by the other cats in the household. Hers licks his fur off his legs and stomach. Both kitties have had idiopathic cystitis. I tried the calming collars and the Feliway spray once. I really couldn't tell if it helped, but may give it a try again. The thing is, I wasn't sure who to put it on... the cat who was picked on, or the cat who was doing the bullying! Thanks for all the info on the essences and for offering to send me some! I may take you up on that! I really think all 5 of my cats could stand some calming. My dog and Colby are about the most normal, well adjusted animals in the house (including myself!). Does the glycerin that you mix it with have any effect on Edwin's blood glucose?
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I think the injectable form of B12 is usually cyanocobalamin. I would be using the oral methylcobalamin as much for his diabetes as for his stage 2 kidney failure issues and appetite issues.

Edwin's down almost a pound since his last checkup a month ago. It would be nice to see him gain some of that back. He's on the skinny side of normal at this point, but some of that might also be muscle loss from his arthritis. He's got old man butt now. You know how some real old guys look like they've worn all their butt off and it's now flat or concave. Same thing, but on a cat. Of course, Edwin is an old man himself so he's earned that butt.

For the calming collars I would try putting it on both the bully and the bullied cat. I would look for sales on the three packs. PetCo had a sale last month with $18 for the three pack. The three packs might be having a production problem lately as the price on Amazon has really spiked. Drugstore.com also sometimes has sales or coupons on settle down collars, which are the same thing.

The crab apple might very well help with your sister's cat's licking. In any case, any mixture won't harm any of your animals. It just won't work at the worst. The glycerin is 1/5 of the mixture, but you add just four drops of the mixture to about a cup of water. It's a really minimal amount.

(An aside: has your sister tried putting a long sleeve infant tshirt on her cat to stop the arm and stomach licking? That helped Edwin. I just bought plain infant long sleeve tees. You have to buy them in a larger size so they are not so tight in the armpits [only classic zombie babies keep their arms stuck out in front of them all the time and there's no zombie baby section in the store.] Then you just take the shirts in a bit in at the neck and shorten the sleeve length some. Don't buy the baby shirts with snaps. Cat's hate snaps.)

If you want to try the regular Bach's rescue remedy on your cats you can use the human or pet version. The human version uses brandy as the preservative, while the pet version uses glycerin. However, considering that you're just using four drops in a cup of water, either is fine for pets. All the other ingredients are the same and often the human version can be found at a lower price.

Check out the symptoms list for the individual remedies. Maybe one mix for your sister's cat (to address the licking) and one for your five cats (who just need some calming)? Since I've already ponied up the money for the individual remedies, each new mix is really inexpensive. I'm pretty sure I have extra empty dropper bottles somewhere.
 
bsmith said:
As far as the shredding, I have a very expensive leather bound book whose corners are all missing. Mmmm... leather. At least my cat stayed away from electrical cords. We had a friend's dog locked in the garage for a bit, while we went out briefly, and he chewed through all the live wires by the garage door. Didn't bother the dog a bit, but he wasn't a terribly smart dog to begin with.
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Thanks, that gave me my laugh for the day. Now I can get on with it and have a smile on my face!:cat:
 
What brand of calming collars have you used? I can't remember what brand I used before, but I think I will give them another try. The bullied cat is peeing in places other than his pan! Petsmart has the Sentry brand ones on sale right now.

bsmith said:
(An aside: has your sister tried putting a long sleeve infant tshirt on her cat to stop the arm and stomach licking? That helped Edwin. I just bought plain infant long sleeve tees. You have to buy them in a larger size so they are not so tight in the armpits [only classic zombie babies keep their arms stuck out in front of them all the time and there's no zombie baby section in the store.] Then you just take the shirts in a bit in at the neck and shorten the sleeve length some. Don't buy the baby shirts with snaps. Cat's hate snaps.)
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"Classic zombie babies...", you're too funny! :joyful: Unfortunately, my sister's kitty would need a whole body suit, b/c he licks both his front and back legs, along with his stomach. We joke that he's trying to give himself a poodle cut....I will definitely tell her about the crab apple.

So, you really think the calming remedy helps Edwin? I would like to give it a try, if you really don't mind. :)

Oh, and I know what you mean about "old man butt", Colby has one too!
 
ursa68 said:
What brand of calming collars have you used? I can't remember what brand I used before, but I think I will give them another try. The bullied cat is peeing in places other than his pan! Petsmart has the Sentry brand ones on sale right now.



"Classic zombie babies...", you're too funny! :joyful: Unfortunately, my sister's kitty would need a whole body suit, b/c he licks both his front and back legs, along with his stomach. We joke that he's trying to give himself a poodle cut....I will definitely tell her about the crab apple.

So, you really think the calming remedy helps Edwin? I would like to give it a try, if you really don't mind. :)

Oh, and I know what you mean about "old man butt", Colby has one too!
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I've used the Sentry brand mostly and sometimes the Vetscription brand. As far as I can tell they're pretty much the same. They claim on the boxes to be lavender scented, but whoever thought that has obviously never smelled lavender. I refer to Edwin as "grape ape" right after I put a new one on him. Peeing outside of the pan is never fun, at least for the human. I hope a calming collar might help. One caution, the collars claim to be breakaway but they're not. Make sure it's loose enough that your cat can get out of it if needed.

As far as your sister's licking cat, they do make full body suits. Search for "pet clothing" on Amazon, but beware ahead of time that it's a long and scary ride. Did you ever think that all he really wants is to be a poodle? Get out the clippers, give him the poodle cut he so dearly wants, and then knit him a new sweater using this book (the reviews are great).

I think the calming remedy has helped Edwin, but of course every cat is different. He's always been a bit of a neurotic licker, but until recently he didn't actually lick to the point of thinning or bald patches. As far as the vet and I can tell, he's stopped the over grooming and the last spot he was going after is growing new fur. At the very worst, any mixture I make just won't work so it doesn't hurt to try it out.

I'm glad to know Edwin isn't the only cat in the "old man butt" club. He'll be so relieved to know he's not alone.
 
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A bit of an update on Edwin. I think he's getting close to going OTJ! I received my sample of Young Again Zero Carb Mature Health a couple of weeks ago. Thanks to all of you who suggested it. I mixed it with his Hill's k/d and he loved it. I placed an order for the 8 lb bag and got it last week.

Switching foods has been a bit bumpy. His stomach got really hard again, like with the trial change to the other Hill's Science Diet, but at least this time he did not seem to be in pain. The hard stomach happened with the YA sample too. His stomach is just really sensitive. However, the YA did not spike his blood sugar like the Hill's Science Diet.

Just to let others know, the YA Zero Carb Mature does contain fish oil even though the rep I spoke to said that it did not contain any fish. I assume it is good quality fish oil as cats who have issues with fish sometimes do okay if the fish oil they do get is high quality. Another note on fish, I noticed on Hill's website that their new k/d formulation no longer contains fish meal. An interesting change.

So, after loving the sample of YA, Edwin decided that he no longer really loved it once I received the 8 lb bag. I ended up ditching the slow feed bowls and offering him a variety of bowls with YA and k/d mixed and bowls with just YA. I scattered the bowls throughout the house. (I may have garnished the edges of some of them with catnip and treats too. Fancy.) In addition, he also stopped eating his canned food and even forti flora didn't tempt him (it was my first time trying forti flora and I don't think he likes it). He was still eating a little bit of dried food, and the dried chicken and dried beef liver treats that he really likes, so it wasn't as if he stopped eating totally.

Anywho, his stomach has finally softened up (massaging it helped) and he's started eating more of the dried food and some of his canned food. I just started adding B12 (MethylCobalamin) to his Tramadol mix, which has perked up his appetite and, as a bonus, seems to make the Tramadol more palatable. His BG numbers are looking good, still a bit high, but not high enough to give him any insulin. He has not had any insulin for six days. I'm hoping that once we transition totally to the YA food only (no k/d mixed in) that his numbers will continually remain in the normal range.

I just wanted to check with others who have more experience that not giving him any insulin with his current numbers, even the slightly high ones, is appropriate. Edwin's always been so sensitive to Lantus that I never managed to use it properly, i.e., build up a depot, and he has a tendency to drop quickly even with only small doses. I'm still testing his BG twice daily, some days at his normal preshot times and other days at times near where his nadir used to be. Is this an appropriate way to be testing?

Any other suggestions on getting Edwin to eat more? I still feel that he is not eating enough and he's still on the lower side of normal weight. Of course, I should probably know better as in the past I've found that sometimes he eats a lot and sometimes he doesn't eat much. I may very well be worrying for nothing. Overall, this is excellent news!
 
It might be worth posting a new question to seek advice on microdosing of Lantus. When Saoirse was coming close to becoming diet-controlled, I was able to keep her numbers a bit tighter by using such techniques. SID dosing helped as well.
 
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Critter Mom said:
It might be worth posting a new question to seek advice on microdosing of Lantus. When Saoirse was coming close to becoming diet-controlled, I was able to keep her numbers a bit tighter by using such techniques. SID dosing helped as well.
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Do you think I should post that question here or over in the Lantus section?
 
BJM said:
Suggestions on How To Stimulate Kitty's Appetite
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I think the other way to get your cat to eat better is just to post something asking how to get him to eat more :) . He ate much better today. I went through the section on appetite on Tanya's CKD page (I forgot about that section). I was able to rule out any causes for inappatince that would require vet intervention. I did raise his food bowls. Maybe that's what did it. I've tried many of the things suggested on the page you linked, but the oregano suggestion was a new one to me. I'll try that on his canned food since he's still not really eating that. Do you know if I have to powder the oregano or can I just use dried flakes?
 
I think it might be better to post the question on the Lantus board.

Re the oregano tip, I've not used it but I'd be inclined to powder the dry herbs before adding them to food: they'd probably mix in better.
 
Critter Mom said:
I think it might be better to post the question on the Lantus board.

Re the oregano tip, I've not used it but I'd be inclined to powder the dry herbs before adding them to food: they'd probably mix in better.
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Posted to Lantus board: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...le-microdosing-of-lantus.134914/#post-1391075

I powdered the oregano and got some up my nose, but it's still better than taking oregano oil straight. That oil burns and makes everything taste like oregano for days after. Edwin did show some interest in the canned food that I mixed the oregano powder into and ate some of it. Oregano, who would have thunk it?
 
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