Dry Food

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wjtaormina

wjtaormina

Member Since 2011
Lucky has had diabetic since March 2011 and went into remission. We went for a check up and his gloucose was 461 which is super high. The vet wants me to put him back on Hills M/D but I read many things about it that I do not like. I was walking around the pet store and saw Blue Bufflao Wilderness brand. This food is High Protein, Grain Free, No Corn, Wheat, or Soy. Would this be a better choice to feed my cat. I had him on wet food for a while. It is easier for myself to give him dry food instead of wet due to my hectic work schedule. Or should I just keep him on wet food? What brands are good for him as far as wet food?
 
Here is the correct FOOD- we currently have three lists:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... hYXc#gid=0 (called Hobo's List)
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html (called binky's list)
http://www.catinfo.org/docs/Food%20Char ... -22-12.pdf (new list from CatInfo.org)

You want to look for canned food that is low carb. The two lists above are ones that we use- look for the %kcal/carbs- under 10 (5 is better) in both lists. Feed the best you can afford. Most do Fancy Feast, Friskies, 9-lives. This will also help with the UTI- dry food is, well, dry. Canned food has more moisture and when you add water to it the water content is increased- all the better to pee a lot. You do NOT need vet prescription food- it is overpriced, high carbs, and contains high quantities of liver- which most cats won't eat day in and day out. If you bought some just take it back and say your kitty stopped eating it. They should refund even if it is opened. You also should consider feeding several small meals throughout the day. Not only is a diabetic cat losing weight- the reason is because they are literally starving, unable to get the nutrients out of the food they are eating. Give more food in small meals and your cat will slow down once they start getting the nutrients out.

Also- I would get a home meter- a human one is fine- so you can test at home rather than waiting for a vet visit. Blue Buffalo is a good brand but there are others that can work just as well without the high price tag (or being dry food).

You can free-fed the wet- add water, freeze the food to melt, add an ice cube to melt. It is just as easy to use canned as it is to use dry.
 
For many reasons, wet food is best.

Dry food is not a good choice and especially for a diabetic. For more information on the dangers of dry food, please read Dr. Lisa's site on the subject: www.catinfo.org

Even with hectic schedules, being out of the house for many hours, canned food can easily and safely be served and left out. Here are some tricks of the trade:

- add water to the canned food - this will keep it moist longer
- take the water added canned food and freeze it - you can use ice cube trays or whatever you have handy - once frozen, you can put it out along with the canned food as it will take several hours to thaw and be fresh for the eating

- you can get a timed feeder - this will ensure that your cat doesn't gobble up everything at one time and rather spread it out over several hours. you can put fresh canned in the first feeder and frozen in the others, with the idea that it will be thawed and ready for eating by the time it opens.

And you don't need to purchase prescription food. It is no better quality than what you can buy in the store or online, yet costs a whole lot more money. Save your money, invest in a timed feeder and only feed LOW CARB wet food to your cat.

There are low carb options for every budget - from Friskies and Fancy Feast to Wellness, Merrick, Evo, etc.
 
Lucky is on Lantus and I was wondering what the shelf life is on it? I was told to leave it in the fridge it will last longer. Is there a place that sells it cheaper? $135 a vial is a lot of money not that Lucky isn't worth it.
 
instead of buying the vial, it is more economical to purchase the 5 pack of solostar pens instead. while the cost for the pens is more than the vial, the potential for waste is less.

the reason is that you get 5 pens and left unopened and in fridge they will last until the expiration date. if the vial goes bad, you have now wasted a lot of insulin unlike only a single pen if it goes bad.

you use the pen as if it is a smaller version of the vial - so you still need the insulin syringes - donot buy the needles that fit the pens.

as to where to buy - call around your local pharmacies and ask the price. costco or another warehouse type store may be cheaper and you don't have to be member to use the pharmacy - i know with costco, members do get an additional discount.

also check on supply closet forum for a $25 coupon for the pens.
 
Check out the zero carb dry food offering from "young again". They're a mom & pop small business in MN and you can google them. They claim "no digestible carbs" and I believe them. Scanning the ingredient label, the only thing in there that even comes close to providing carbs is "fructooligosaccharides" which comes in at #9 on the label. I did a search on that & apparently that stuff yields more fiber than carbs as a human sweetener. Something having to do with the configuration of bonds that makes them immune to the effect of digestive enzymes.

The only dry food you can buy at a commercial store I'd even think about giving a diabetic cat is "wellness core" which comes in at 11% carbs. That's still too high, but it's close.

There are some cats that can't be forced to touch food from a can. The only moist food my cat will go near is the mixture of hill's a/d with chicken gerber's baby food, I got him eating after he threw up his feeding tube following a bout of pancreatitis. It's that or kibble. I've tried EVERYTHING ELSE. I've wasted huge sums going from one canned food to another, blending them, putting parmesan on them, standing on my head, praying to adonai/yahweh... No dice. This is horrible for his diabetes, but it's something I keep in my back pocket if/when his weight starts falling. And since he's gone in remission, he can even eat this in limited doses with very little effect on his BG numbers. I mean he may go from 80 to 110 or 120 postprandial with that.

(Offensive comment removed by webmaster.)
I have to concede it's easier to find an acceptable canned food than a dry one. There are moist canned foods that will get a diabetic cat in trouble in a hurry (e.g., hill's a/d), and kibbles (such as those mentioned above) that are very, very good. My own cat was off insulin in 2 days on "young again zero carb". You simply have to understand that cats are carnivores, such things as potatoes, apples, corn, etc. have no business being in cat food & you have to be willing to read a label.
 
Finally, in closing, I have to say the prejudice against dry food is simply idiotic and reveals very shallow thinking
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So you don't buy what Dr. Pierson has to say about why dry food is bad for every cat? I don't think I'd consider her "idiotic" or a "shallow thinker".

Carl
 
So you don't buy what Dr. Pierson has to say about why dry food is bad for every cat? I don't think I'd consider her "idiotic" or a "shallow thinker".
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You can't tell a book by its cover and neither can you tell a cat food by the container it comes in. You have to read the label.

(Offensive comment removed by webmaster)

And I do have a doctorate of my own (just M, no V), a board certified anesthesiologist by training (human not animal).
 
I suggest putting some dry food in water and see how long it take to break down. The amount of time it took was shocking to me and made me realize that water must be absorbed from the kitty's body in addition to any extra it drinks in order for it to soften up to be digestible. That doesn't make sense to me. Along with the ingredients in most dry food, that is why I won't feed dry food. I'm only sorry Yoshi had to get diabetes before I learned about the appropriate diet for felines.

Thank heavens for Dr. Pierson and her info filled site.
 
Carol & Yoshi said:
I suggest putting some dry food in water and see how long it take to break down. The amount of time it took was shocking to me and made me realize that water must be absorbed from the kitty's body in addition to any extra it drinks in order for it to soften up to be digestible. That doesn't make sense to me. Along with the ingredients in most dry food, that is why I won't feed dry food. I'm only sorry Yoshi had to get diabetes before I learned about the appropriate diet for felines.

Thank heavens for Dr. Pierson and her info filled site.
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The fact your cat got diabetes had nothing to do with whether the food was wet or dry. If you'd fed your cat a solid diet of Hill's A/D (a wet canned product of another one of the messianic evangelists of canned food, Dr.Hodgkins), your cat would have developed diabetes even sooner. I have the glucometer readings from my own formerly diabetic cat to prove it! At the time, I was more interested in getting him back from the brink than getting his diabetes in remission, even though the latter was a high priority (it was eat or die time after he threw up his feeding tube --- vet was hinting at euthanasia for my 23 year old kitty & I was taking him back in a week for another weigh-in). It's a function of the carbohydrate load and it doesn't matter whether the cat gets it as solid liquid or gas, the bottom line is not to feed candy bars to cats. Cats are carnivores, and the pancreas of a cat is meant to be a vestigial organ like your own appendix.

The zero carb offering from "young again" is a better food for a diabetic cat than just about any moist canned food out there. I mean what part of "zero digestible carbs" do you NOT understand???

Webmaster's editorial and warning: What part of don't violate board rules by being offensive and calling names do you NOT understand? And zero digestible carbs for cats is all carbs. Can't digest any carbs. Understand? Understand shady advertising claims? Do you ever read medical literature, especially veterinary literature? There is ample peer-reviewed research that carbs are bad for cats and that cats eating carb containing food - wet or dry - can indeed "cause" diabetes. Oh, you must not read medical literature or you would know that the appendix is not actually a vestigial organ and that the pancreas has other functions rather than insulin production. Gee, do I sound disgusted? I am. And since I'm the founder and webmaster of this site, I can tell you so. Sincerely, Rebecca A Price MD, General Surgery
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Putting the dry food in water is an interesting experiment, but I'll pass. I put all 3 of my cats on the zero carb kibble, and yes they drink more water. What's your point?
 
It isn't the doctorate that matters to me, but I guess the specific field? If I need anesthesia, I'd ask for you over her, for sure.

On the Young Again food, what about moisture content? A cat, in nature, requires no additional water other than what it gets from it's prey. And a cat also has zero nutritional need for carbohydrates, so anything more than "zero carbs" is more carbs than they need. It's nice that Young Again fits that bill, but what about water?

My cat is in remission, eats nothing but 5% or less canned food, but he also rarely if ever visits the water bowl. Even before diabetes, when he ate dry food, he drank water all the time. So apparently the canned food gives him everything he needs. Are you feeding the young again? Does your cat need additional water? If so, then his food isn't giving him everything he needs?

I understand you have one of the difficult cats that won't eat canned food. Definitely a small minority among cats "here", because very very few cats here have refused to eventually make the change to all canned. And that's unfortunate for your cat. I know "young again" has been discussed here sometime/someplace. I'll see if I can find prior threads.

Carl
 
From Dr. Lisa - www.catinfo.org

The three key negative issues associated with dry food are:

1) water content is too low

2) carbohydrate load is too high

3) type of protein - too high in plant-based versus animal-based proteins

My Cat is Doing Just "Fine" on Dry Food!

Every living creature is “fine” until outward signs of a disease process are exhibited. That may sound like a very obvious and basic statement but if you think about it……

Every cat on the Feline Diabetes Message Board was “fine” until their owners started to recognize the signs of diabetes.

Every cat with a blocked urinary tract was “fine” until they started to strain to urinate and either died from a ruptured bladder or had to be rushed to the hospital for emergency catheterization.

Every cat with an inflamed bladder (cystitis) was “fine” until they ended up in pain, passing blood in their urine, and missing their litter box.

Every cat was ‘fine’ until the feeding of species-inappropriate, hyperallergenic ingredients caught up with him and he started to show signs of food intolerance/IBD (inflammatory bowel disease).

Every cat was "fine" until that kidney or bladder stone got big enough to cause clinical signs.

Every cancer patient was “fine” until their tumor grew large enough or spread far enough so that clinical signs were observed by the patient.

The point is that diseases 'brew' long before being noticed by the living being.

This is why the statement “but my cat is healthy/fine on dry food” means very little to me because I believe in preventative nutrition - not locking the barn door after the horse is gone. I don’t want to end up saying “oops……I guess he is not so fine now!!" when a patient presents to me with a medical problem that could have been avoided if he would have been feed a species-appropriate diet to begin with.
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And I will gladly drink Dr. Lisa's koolaide if it helps keep my cats healthy. And since I am in charge of what my cats eat and don't eat, I will continue with the canned and raw food diet.
 
Carl & Bob said:
It isn't the doctorate that matters to me, but I guess the specific field? If I need anesthesia, I'd ask for you over her, for sure.

On the Young Again food, what about moisture content? A cat, in nature, requires no additional water other than what it gets from it's prey. And a cat also has zero nutritional need for carbohydrates, so anything more than "zero carbs" is more carbs than they need. It's nice that Young Again fits that bill, but what about water?.

Carl
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I have been to med school (3 years not 4 --- got a year off for good behavior) and did a year of medicine training before specializing in anesthesia for another 3 years. A written exam, followed by an oral exam after all that. It's required by my specialty board. I do know a little something about general medicine. Your DVM, in general, will have no clinical training beyond vet school. We, as a society are rather careful before we saddle somebody with doing something that can kill you (not your pet) in 6 minutes. The only difference between what I do and a death by lethal injection is what's between my ears. The drugs are the same. But here I digress.

If the cat drinks no water, the only harm I see in that is that you'll be able to see more easily if the cat is getting polydipsia. My cat is drinking water. But since I have 3 of them, I'm not going to get much info from that anyway. Aside from that, who cares. Might make them more prone to kidney stones if they don't drink enough, but there are many other factors going into that one.
 
Carl & Bob said:
the pancreas of a cat is meant to be a vestigial organ like your own appendix.
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why?
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Because cats are carnivores. Mice (or lizards --- my formerly nearly dead cat felt good enough to chase one down, kill it & eat it yesterday) are maybe 2% carbs. They have little need for insulin & certainly not in the quantities required to deal with the carbohydrate loads we give them in most modern cat foods. Last I checked, lizards aren't moist food from cans either.

You still need some of the functions of the exocrine pancreas to digest fats, etc, however. But the cat pancreas isn't made to digest a diet of candy.
 
If you'd fed your cat a solid diet of Hill's A/D (a wet canned product of another one of the messianic evangelists of canned food, Dr.Hodgkins), your cat would have developed diabetes even sooner.
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I thought I read somewhere where Dr. H. had retracted her support for a/d, but I might be mistaken. I take it you're not a big fan of her either. But from reading another of your posts, you used some sort of her TR protocol for PZI, didn't you?

Carl
 
Carl & Bob said:
If you'd fed your cat a solid diet of Hill's A/D (a wet canned product of another one of the messianic evangelists of canned food, Dr.Hodgkins), your cat would have developed diabetes even sooner.
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I thought I read somewhere where Dr. H. had retracted her support for a/d, but I might be mistaken. I take it you're not a big fan of her either. But from reading another of your posts, you used some sort of her TR protocol for PZI, didn't you?

Carl
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Yup. Used her sliding scale protocol for TR with PZI. I don't care much for her unthinking slobbering love affair with moist canned foods, or the gestapo moderators on her board who will ban you for mentioning zero carb "young again", however. Bunch of luddites perpetrating the greatest hoax since the piltdown man. There are lousy moist foods & very good dry ones. You simply have to use your head, which she & some of her sycophantic acolytes don't seem to do.

A/D has its uses. That & meated baby food saved my cat's life. But it's not a good food for a cat to live on & a terrible one for a diabetic cat.
 
Sandman said:
Carl & Bob said:
the pancreas of a cat is meant to be a vestigial organ like your own appendix.
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why?
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Because cats are carnivores. Mice (or lizards --- my formerly nearly dead cat felt good enough to chase one down, kill it & eat it yesterday) are maybe 2% carbs. They have little need for insulin & certainly not in the quantities required to deal with the carbohydrate loads we give them in most modern cat foods.

You still need some of the functions of the exocrine pancreas to digest fats, etc, however. But the cat pancreas isn't made to digest a diet of candy.
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I understand that cats don't require any carbs because they convert fats and protiens into glucose to give them all the energy they need. But doesn't insulin allow/trigger the cell walls to absorb the glucose from the bloodstream, no matter what the source of the glucose is? Just asking, there's no "D" at the end of my signature.
 
Yup. Used her sliding scale protocol for TR with PZI. I don't care much for her unthinking slobbering love affair with moist canned foods, or the gestapo moderators on her board who will ban you for mentioning zero carb "young again", however. Bunch of luddites perpetrating the greatest hoax since the piltdown man. There are lousy moist foods & very good dry ones. You simply have to use your head, which she & some of her sycophantic acolytes don't seem to do.
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Wow! I don't have any direct experience with YDC, but did visit it a time or two before I found this board. And I do know of at least one former member here who was banned from YDC when he mentioned he'd been posting here for advice. I'm sort of glad I didn't stick around there. :smile:

Just wondering, did you use the "old" scale that went as high as 4.0 doses, or the newer modified one that toned things down to 2.0 or 2.5 on BGs in the 450+ range?

carl
 
Wendy,
Very sorry for this thread being hijacked by a discussion that should be going on in the "Think Tank".

How is Lucky doing?

Carl
 
I understand that cats don't require any carbs because they convert fats and protiens into glucose to give them all the energy they need. But doesn't insulin allow/trigger the cell walls to absorb the glucose from the bloodstream, no matter what the source of the glucose is? Just asking, there's no "D" at the end of my signature.
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Correct. But you don't need insulin in anything like the amounts you need with the blood glucose surges coming from a high carb meal. That's why the first step in controlling a cat's diabetes is getting the carbs out of the food (doesn't matter in my scheme of things what form the food comes in!). That's BEFORE using insulin. Hodgkins is correct on that one. Where I part company is the messianic tone adopted for moist food from a can, which my cat generally won't touch (Hill's A/D the only exception --- and it's TERRIBLE for him).

Try controlling the blood glucose surges you get from Hill's A/D (moist canned) cat food with protamine zinc insulin, in a cat with a pancreas whose beta cells are asleep from hyperglycemia some time. I've tried playing that game and it's really a fool's errand.
 
Just wondering, did you use the "old" scale that went as high as 4.0 doses, or the newer modified one that toned things down to 2.0 or 2.5 on BGs in the 450+ range?
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Used the 4.0 one. And, yes I've given my cat 4 units for BG in the 400+ range. Hodgkins discussion of hypoglycemia is pretty much "on target" also. My cat had no apparent symptoms with a 47 on a human meter, and only slight ones ("drunken" gait) with a 42. But again, that would be 72-77 on an alphatrack, which is actually pretty normal (though low end) for a cat. So, I didn't hit the panic button either time. These days, I've seen low 50's off insulin from time to time (human meter). And that's very healthy for a cat off the juice.
 
Just my 0.02c, my diabetic Scooter was on Wilderness kitten his whole life (previous owner's choice, not mine) and still developed diabetes. Even though it is marketed as "grain free" and "low carb" it still contains potatoes, potato starch, peas, etc. which are high in carbs. I would guesstimate it to be around 20% or higher carbs personally. Not necessarily saying his diabetes was caused by the food (could have been genetic or just random) but his blood glucose was in the 500's when he was on that diet, and the few times he snuck back into the cupboard to eat the remainders his numbers flew back up for a long time. A cat in remission may have enough pancreas function to stay in remission on dry but I wouldn't risk it, especially because kidney failure is one of the highest causes of death in cats.
 
I'd be careful with any artificial sugar even if it is more fiber than carbs. They give many human diabetics problems and cats weren't made for processing carbs and there is a world of difference between vet medicine and human medicine. Some parts cross over easily without adjustments needed for species but other things are much more complex for even attempting to try on an animal. Vets don't generally going around trying to treat and diagnose humans because they were trained on treating a variety of animals and animal ailments; just as medical doctors for humans shouldn't assume to know better than vets on how to treat animal ailments.

Heck my Moonshine gets mostly wet food and stubbornly clings to having a bit of dry but apparently needs water consistently added to his wet food to avoid problem with Cystitis and urinary blockage. My Tootsie has been fed wet food ever since she was adopted and only goes to the vet every other year for vaccines. ECID, yet as a species domestic cats do best on wet foods that are low carbs preferrably raw like finely ground rabbit (bones and all).
 
Sandman said:
My cat had no apparent symptoms with a 47 on a human meter, and only slight ones ("drunken" gait) with a 42. But again, that would be 72-77 on an alphatrack, which is actually pretty normal (though low end) for a cat. So, I didn't hit the panic button either time. These days, I've seen low 50's off insulin from time to time (human meter). And that's very healthy for a cat off the juice.
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Sandman, if you haven't seen it yet, you might be interested in Lynda's glucometer survey on non-diabetic cats:

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=3030

-- Janet
 
My ego is not such that I feel compelled to get into a debate with Mr. Sandman regarding credentials and degrees. I will leave that to him. However, note that Mr. Sandman is not in the sector of the medical field that deals with the species we are discussing on this board.

I want to take this opportunity to reinforce the fact that when cats are fed a water-rich diet (one that mimics the water content of their natural prey), veterinarians are much less busy tending to cats that end up suffering tremendously from urinary tract obstructions, as well as other UT problems such as cystitis. This is a fact that cannot be disputed.

If these UT cats had been fed a water-rich diet in the first place, their chances of ending up dead from a ruptured bladder - or in so much pain that it brings tears to my eyes - would have been significantly lower. And their guardians would not have had to deal with a huge medical bill either. (Just an FYI...Opie's bill was $4,350.)

I have dealt with 3 such suffering cats just this week so it makes me especially sad to keep hearing supposedly well-educated people neglecting to use the common sense part of their brain. These "people" include many of my colleagues so, sadly, they are not just limited to Mr. Sandman.

Water in.....water out. Pretty simple. Cats consume more water when fed a water-rich diet. Again, very simple.

Urethral obstruction is man-made suffering in the vast majority of cases.

Any human who condones the feeding of dry food to cats while dismissing the incredible suffering that it contributes to with regard to urinary tract disease, needs a cork put up their urethra.

If I happen to be there as their bladder starts to distend, I will pull the cork but only if the human promises to actually apply more critical thought to this issue and promises to never pretend that any water-depleted diet is a perfectly healthy and suitable diet to feed to a cat.

If they refuse to apply this critical thought, then I will have no problem sitting back and watching them cry in pain as their bladder distends and finally ruptures.

As I have pointed out many times, diet is not just about carbs and diabetes.

For anyone who needs a visual, please see Opie's pictures on my Urinary Tract Health page.
 
Thank you Dr. Lisa!

....gives whole new meaning to "put a cork in it"...

:lol:

Had Bob not gotten diabetes, I'd never have had a reason to come here. And no reason to ever visit catinfo.org most likely. And Mullet would still be 15, pushing 16 years old, and eating dry food all day and night, with me none the wiser until I had to rush him to the ER because his bladder and/or kidneys failed. Bob's FD was many blessings in disguise.

Carl
 
Carl & Bob said:
Thank you Dr. Lisa!

....gives whole new meaning to "put a cork in it"...

:lol:

Had Bob not gotten diabetes, I'd never have had a reason to come here. And no reason to ever visit catinfo.org most likely. And Mullet would still be 15, pushing 16 years old, and eating dry food all day and night, with me none the wiser until I had to rush him to the ER because his bladder and/or kidneys failed. Bob's FD was many blessings in disguise.

Carl
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Same with Maui. I was happily feeding "high quality" dry food to my cats without any real understanding of the issues. Maui's FD brought me to this board, where I learned and yes I drank Dr. Lisa's koolaide! And my cats are better off because of that.

So, thanks for the lessons Dr. Lisa

And ha ha Carl - put a cork in it....ouch!
 
Carl & Bob said:
Thank you Dr. Lisa!
....gives whole new meaning to "put a cork in it"...
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OK...I am seriously laughing out loud. :-D

But....the laughter turns to tears as I look at my inbox with yet another email just coming in from a distraught woman writing to me about her blocked cat that is currently in the emergency room. It just never ends....

If anyone really needs more convincing, they should chat with my many colleagues who have seen their blocked cat cases grind close-to-a-halt once they started pushing canned over dry for their feline patients. One colleague wrote to me to tell me that she calculated that she had lost at least $65K in revenue over the last couple of years....all due to far fewer UT cases. She then lamented about her son's college tuition.....jokingly...somewhat.

Then there is my favorite VIN consultant in the Feline Folder who said that when she was in clinical practice, the only blocked cats she ever had to deal with were the unfortunate furry souls owned by the few stubborn clients who refused to ditch the dry food. She never saw blocked cats that were eating 100% canned food - preferably with a bit of added water. That is not to say that a cat can't block on canned food....nobody is saying that....but let's just say that it is extremely rare.

By the way, out of the 4 cases...now 5....that I have dealt with this week....ALL 5 cases have been threatened with penis amputation....ie....a PU surgery. This is another issue that makes me want to scream. We feed a lousy water-depleted diet...then cut off the cat's penis. 99% of the time these PUs are completely unnecessary but that is another subject.....

In addition to my cork threat, maybe I should add penis amputation. That may get even more attention than the threat of a ruptured bladder.
 
TheBowHuntress said:
am looking for dry foods very loe in carbs...
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I am confused and I really hope that the word "dry" in the sentence above is a typo because I can't imagine why anyone would think they would find a dry food list on my site if they had read my comments above....or looked at Opie's pictures on my Urinary Tract Health page.

Please tell me that the above was a typo.....otherwise I may just have to beat my head against a wall.....
 
Lisa, I have read your page and understand how bad dry food is for a cat but when it comes to the point that the cat is starving because they won't eat wet or enough to survive (a few bites don't cut it) or feeding dry...sorry I have to pick dry food. I do still want to feed the best quality that I can even if the best dry food still isn't great. There are times when you just have to go with dry.
 
j_o said:
but when it comes to the point that the cat is starving because they won't eat wet or enough to survive (a few bites don't cut it) or feeding dry...sorry I have to pick dry food.
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Obviously.

I quickly glanced at part of Lucy's thread and would be doing just what she is doing. Old cat...skinny...won't eat....quality of life is important...and I support what she is doing 100%. Would I feed my cat dry food before letting them starve to death? Of course.

That said, I find that most (note that I did not write "all"...but I will say "nearly all".....) people do not try hard enough and give up far too easily. I see this on a daily basis in my work.

Also, my comments on this thread were made to address Mr. Sandman's and my colleagues' perpetual pretending that dry food does not set cats up for significant health risks.

My last post was also addressing the fact that I still hope that the previous question was a typo.....
 
Dr. Lisa,
I think part of the confusion might be due to your food charts being seen as the "replacement" for the old J & B charts? In addition to the "old and new" canned charts, Janet did have a link to "dry food" on a chart. We didn't regularly link to it, since it's dry food, but it is there.

I think that what gets lost in the whole "dry vs. canned/raw" and "low carbs are best" discussions is why dry is bad. Because we're also most concerned with how food interferes with, or helps, with treating diabetes we're always primarily concerned with "carbs". We tend to focus on "you shouldn't feed dry food because the % carbs is too high", which is definitely true. But then someone comes up with a "low or zero carbs" dry food, and we start thinking it'll be okay, because it isn't high in carbs.

But it doesn't matter if it is low carb, zero carb, whatever. It's just BAD stuff, because it's DRY. Whether it's okay or not for a diabetic doesn't matter. It's bad for every cat.

If I were faced with my cat refusing to eat anything but dry food, of course I'd feed him or her dry food to keep them alive. Especially a diabetic cat who is losing weight, and I'd be worried about fatty liver, ketones, and all the other fun stuff that can happen when a cat doesn't eat. I guess I'd be weighing the short term benefits vs. the long term damage caused by the dry food, and "now" would win over "later". But I'd also try my damnedest to convince Fluffy that dry food was eventually going to no longer be on the menu.

Carl
 
"Yep" to Carl's post.

Re: feeding any water-depleted diet - if any animal lover ever had to listen to a cat literally scream in pain as his bladder distended due to a urethral obstruction....or had to deal with the after effects of a penis amputation...... all because of Man's love affair with dry food..... I have no doubt that they would be as rabid about this subject as I am.

This week was a record for me in terms of having to deal with blocked cats - and colleagues who can't manage to engage the common sense part of their brain with respect to 'water in => water out' - so I am even more crabby about this subject than usual.
 
Dr. Lisa,
I have a hypothetical question...

If my cat won't eat pate style low carb FF or Friskees, and he'll only eat the soupy gravy higher carb stuff.... You can compensate for the higher carbs by being more aggressive with insulin treatment, can't you? Rather than feeding a dry food, even one with an allegedly lower carb value? Is it better (lesser of two evils) to "cave" on carbs than on dry vs. canned?

Carl
 
There are some cats that just don't like canned food no matter what style or flavour. My one cat you can open a can of everything and dish out some and the cat will smell it all maybe lick one or two and walk away. We have tried crumbling treats on it cheese on it you name it we have tried all the tips for switching cats to wet food and nope would rather go hungry than touch the wet food. So it is important for some of us to find the best quality dry food that we can.
 
Carl & Bob said:
If my cat won't eat pate style low carb FF or Friskees, and he'll only eat the soupy gravy higher carb stuff.... You can compensate for the higher carbs by being more aggressive with insulin treatment, can't you? Rather than feeding a dry food, even one with an allegedly lower carb value? Is it better (lesser of two evils) to "cave" on carbs than on dry vs. canned?Carl
Click to expand...

Excellent question which I deal with frequently....and is what brings me to my mantra..."do not make diet 'all or nothing'"

If a cat wants to eat X and you want them to eat Y, don't cave in and just feed them 100% X....which so many people do....with fish...or gravy....or dry food....or whatever the cat's vice is.

These gravy/specific texture - addicted cats are extremely common but can be transitioned to a pate-style with enough patience and time with various tricks which include watering down the gravy.....using some of the gravy with pate food.....mashing up the chunks in gravy to get them used to a pate-texture with the gravy flavoring....Forti Flora, Temptations treats.....etc....etc...etc.

To answer your direct question which deals with carb-induced hyperglycemia necessitating more insulin....versus....the dry food-induced urinary tract health risks.

There are two options:

1) stick with no dry food and get the cat weaned from gravy canned to pate canned with time, patience and tricks (I have never failed yet....but then I am extremely stubborn....)....and use higher doses of insulin in the meantime

or

2) Use some low carb dry food **temporarily** to get the transition accomplished to low carb canned.

As you can see, I would not just sit back and give up and feed a 100% high carb gravy food. I would keep at it...forever. Remember....my 12 year old barn cat finally ate canned food after having it in her world - and refusing it - for 2.5 years. Finally, the light bulb came on over her head. Better late than never.

The same thing can happen with gravy-addicted cats.

I will repeat: Humans often throw in the towel far too easily and too quickly...and they stop trying....and....they don't get creative enough with 'tricks'. I truly would be rich if I had a nickel for every time someone said "my cat won't eat Y"....and sure enough, after the human rolls up their sleeves and gets busy trying harder, the cat eats the better food option.

Before any of you who HAVE tried hard become offended, believe me, I completely understand the frustration. I have been in tears many times trying to get cats to eat a health diet. This is a very frustrating species to work with - especially if diabetic and they must eat.

With diabetics it IS much harder - no doubt about that. And...to keep beating a dead horse, dry food is better than starvation or DKA. That should go without saying.
 
We are still trying after 3.5 years and unknow number of cans of wet food (which the other cats volunteer to eat after they have sat around for hours waiting for Dry food Kitty to eat them) and still no luck
 
Dr. Lisa, what is your opinion on freeze dried raw food? These can be fed dry or rehydrated. Would feeding a complete diet brand such as Stella and Chewy's be acceptable for those cats who just won't eat canned or homemade or commercial raw?
 
squeem3 said:
Dr. Lisa, what is your opinion on freeze dried raw food? These can be fed dry or rehydrated. Would feeding a complete diet brand such as Stella and Chewy's be acceptable for those cats who just won't eat canned or homemade or commercial raw?
Click to expand...


Ah...S and C....a very frustrating company who refused to provide me with any usable information to add to the list. How a company can state that basic nutritional information is "proprietary" is beyond me and, frankly, insulting.

But...to your question...

Bottom line: "Dry" = water-depleted which is a deal breaker for me no matter the food - as long as it is low carb which note that Honest Kitchen Prowl does not qualify as due to its potato content.

If a cat will eat these diets re-hydrated (and kudos to S and C for having the directive to "add water" on their packaging - unlike Primal, etc.) then I am fine with them. But then if a cat will eat these foods with water, then they would probably eat canned food - eventually.
 
Dr. Lisa, what is your stance in regards to freeze-dried treats? Should we be finding better, hydrated treat options or are these okay? I've been wondering about this because I give Mikey a treat every time I test him and I test him all the time!
 
I never worry about treat quality....as I sit here and munch on a piece of candy. :-D

Heck, my old barn cat used to love red licorice so I fed it to him.

I just worry about the **bulk** of the diet, not treats here and there. After all, life is short! I eat a great diet but I also consume some 'junk' on occasion.
 
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