Don't shoot below 200?

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Ken & Tara

Member Since 2016
Don't shoot below 200?

Tara has one PMPS reading below 200, and the next sequential AMPS (this morning) is also below 200. I'm sure these low numbers are due to dietary changes, they began in the 1-2 day window of gastrointestinal transit. I'm torn about not shooting below 200, as no green numbers were ever reached. Somewhere I read that to stimulate remission, you desire a sequence of very low BG numbers, or even a hypo event, the rationale was that somehow turns the pancreas back on. At the same time, why use insulin when it's not needed?

According to the AAHA diabetes treatment guidelines, in new diabetics, dose is decreased when it's < 150, but in established diabetics, dose is decreased only when it's < 80.

Should I not shoot below 200? Just wait and see, keep monitoring BG? Or should I attempt something closer to the AAHA strategy?

Her next scheduled vet visit is about a week away.
 
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We generally suggest new diabetics not get shots under 200 until you have enough data to predict what might happen. Instead stall. Wait 20 minutes without feeding and retest. You want to be sure the number is rising, not continuing to fall and over 200.

With ProZinc, you start out shooting at 200 and over until you have data to see how low the insulin takes them mid cylcle. A nadir of 50 on a human meter or 68 on a pet meter is an indication that your dose may be a little high and should be reduced. Consistent pre shots under 200 may also be an indicator that the dose should be reduced.

if you want, you can post on the PZI forum for dose advice daily. Checking out spreadsheets for other PZI users can also be helpful. I like that you are using a sliding scale - shooting lower amounts for higher numbers.
 
Thank you for sharing your thoughts @Andy & Pimp, @Sue and Oliver (GA), and @Larry and Kitties. The U dose given for 195 BG (it went up 1 one hour after eating) was 0.3552 U. The decimal is strange, I really don't know what precision I'm able to obtain, but that dosage number is the goal. I find that when filling the syringe, adjusting it is difficult, it seems to stick, and any pressure on the plunger causes it to move too much.

Basically, I'm trying for some green numbers to stimulate the pancreas to produce. I was unable to reach them when she was on a higher carb food, I kept encountering bounces, which were stressful to her.

Thanks again! :)
 
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What kind of syringes are you using? I've not seen anything that measure in those gradients. Is your insulin U40 or U100?

Food can raise levels so you want to get the second test without feeding. Otherwise, you aren't dealing with a "true" number but one influenced by food.
 
I find that when filling the syringe, adjusting it is difficult, it seems to stick
Before drawing up the insulin dose push the syringe plunger up and down several times. It tends to move more smoothly when you do this.

Basically, I'm trying for some green numbers to stimulate the pancreas to produce.
If you aim to gradually lower the curve it is less likely to trigger bounces. A kitty's body needs time to acclimatise to lower numbers. It's a gradual process.


Mogs
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What kind of syringes are you using? I've not seen anything that measure in those gradients. Is your insulin U40 or U100?

I'm using a U-100 syringe with U-40 ProZinc insulin. It is measured into the syringe with a the aid of a vernier caliper accurate to 1/20 mm, a magnification headset, and syringe backlighting. I already had those tools on hand, as one of my prior lives was as a motorcycle and auto mechanic (loathe it now, please don't ask).

U-40 ÷ 40% = U-100 index reading.
So, for this morning's dose,
.3552 U ÷ 40% = 0.888 U U-100 syringe index reading. However, that further needs to be converted to a mm length for the vernier caliper. I have a spreadsheet tab labeled "calculators" which has the conversion calculator first (at the top). It is based on the 30 U "full length" dose of the U-100 syringe, then mathematically divided down to 1 U length (which reportedly can vary from one manufacturer's syringe to another), which is 1.34875 mm.

0.888 * 1.34875 = 1.19769 mm or approximately 1.20 mm

I gotta go take a reading, edited to add that her +4 reading was 140.


Food can raise levels so you want to get the second test without feeding. Otherwise, you aren't dealing with a "true" number but one influenced by food.

Well, I didn't follow that advice, but I only read it after acting! I took the first AMPS reading, it was below 200 at 194, I asked my question here, my partner fed Tara 31 grams of Fancy Feast Flaked Fish and Shrimp Feast, and one hour later AMPS was 195, so it looks like that food has very low carbs "zero" per catinfo.org html sortable chart. I shot her with 0.3552 U (yes, the decimal is ridiculous, but that is the calculation). I'm using not only the sliding scale dosing, but a dose divisor which allows me to increase or decrease the sliding scale, and this mornings dose was too low using a dose divisor of 2.2. I'll likely change it tomorrow to 2.0, that represents a 10% relative-dose increase, but the actual dose will be determined by PS BG reading using the sliding scale dosage, unless sometime today I find Tara somewhere in the green, in which case I'll leave the sliding scale divisor at 2.2. I've taken one BG curve reading so far today, it was +2 and showed 140, but +2 is a little early for nadir.

Before drawing up the insulin dose push the syringe plunger up and down several times. It tends to move more smoothly when you do this.

What I've found is that after I've mixed the vial, put on my headset and checked the vernier caliper reading, I insert the syringe, turn the vial upside down, and shoot the air in the syringe into the vial, pressing the plunger hard and holding it for maybe a second (gas is compressible), then I draw back more insulin than is needed, there is always a large bubble, so it gets pushed back into the vial a second time, pressing the plunger hard to compress the black rubber end hard against the end of the barrel, then draw down more insulin than needed to insure the bubble is gone. Because I'm wearing a magnification headset, I can still see a few very tiny bubbles on the top of the plunger, but I can't ever get rid of those completely. Then I start adjusting the plunger using the vernier caliper to judge the distance from the inside of the syringe barrel (which can be seen clearest with backlighting) to the top of the plunger. When I get those aligned using the magnification headset, the shot is ready. It requires multiple iterations of fine adjustments to the plunger depth.

Some kind felinediabetes.com member offered some videos on the subject of this kind of measurement.

If you aim to gradually lower the curve it is less likely to trigger bounces. A kitty's body needs time to acclimatise to lower numbers. It's a gradual process.

Yes, I agree, that's what I've learned. For Tara, I'm finding dose increases should be between 5-10%, or 105-110% new dose calculated based upon the prior dose to minimize or stop the bounce. At sub 1 U doses, a 0.25 U change is far too large of a dose increase, and creates a bounce. That 0.25 U rule may be a good for 2-3 U dosing, as that's where the percentage increase intersects. I'll just use the percentage, as I have a calculator on the spreadsheet. A system so to say.

So much to learn! :cat:
 
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