Distress- Diabetic Cat & Guardian

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alicat

Member Since 2014
Hello FDMB,

I am glad to find you and hope you can help.

My 8 year old male cat was diagnosed diabetic in March 2014 after I noticed increased urinating and thrist.

March 28: vet did glucose curve 484-416

April 11: vet again curve 483-428

I took him home with insulin (LANTUS) and was instructed to give 2.5 units.

April 19th: tested glucose at home with monitor: 335
Vet increased to 3 units

4/26/2014 Level 413

4/29/2014 Level 377

5/13/2014 Level 360

5/24/2014 Level 354

6/12/2014 457

He was peeing a lot, thristy and always hungry (we went from free feeding to 2 meals a day M/D wet 1 can in morning and one in evening prior to insulin shot)

The constant meowing, crying, beggin for food had taken a toll on me and my elderly father.

He bite me three times last week..with last bite on 6/13/2014 6:30am... took him to vet at 7am ( will post pictures if that is allowed)
he is still at vet.. they have increased insulin to 5.0 and glucose down to 300's (did not give me exact #). He will not eat the M/D food I gave them to feed him
so they have him on Hill's® Prescription Diet®
a/d® Canine/Feline Critical Care

I love my boy, however, I feel bad about leaving him at vet for 3 days (will pick him up on Monday) and also very concerned about the biting.
Cost so far $2,100 (insulin, vet bills, M/D food, syringes, etc) I would like try one more time to regulate this.. but am considering:

1) take him insulin, bring him home, and let him eat free feeding and naturally get sicker (who maybe get better ?)

2) try one more time to regulate and if he does not bite maybe we can make it. :)

3) put him down now.. he is not happy and not the Herman he was.. playing, sleeping on his blanket (now sleeps in hallway), loved his morning massage .. curious, playful .. no longer.

Please let me know how to use this Message Board.

I am new at this and need some advice.

Thank you & hope you are feeling Feline Groovy :)




Today
 
Try changing his food to a low carb type like canned Fancy Feast or Friskies in pate style. Make sure you're home testing though because his insulin needs will drop and you don't want him to go hypo. No matter what the vet says, stay away from the the prescription vet food, it's high in carbs and thus it makes it very difficult to control his glucose.
Do you test several times a day? Best to test before his morning meal and evening meal to see where his glucose sits. You can also do a glucose curve to get an idea of what his glucose is doing throughout the day. Test him about every 2 hours one day when you have time, and post your results, that will give the experts on this site some data to help you out.
Hang in there, there's still hope for your kitty!
 
What is the reason your cat was left at the vet? Most of us here do home blood testing using human glucometers, so we don't need to take the cat to the vet for blood testing. Cats are often way more stressed at the vet and numbers don't represent their blood sugar at home. I have a non diabetic cat that tested out of range (high 100's) at the vet, but was 53 when I tested him at home. It is possible that your cat may be getting too much insulin. A dose of 5.0 units is not common. We normally start at a lower dose, around 1.0 units, if the cat is on a low carb wet food. And we increase in .25 unit amounts so as to not bypass a good dose. Lantus dosing is based on the nadir or low point of the cycle, which is typically 4-7 hours after the shot.

There are things you don't have to buy at the vet; food, insulin, or syringes. You can use off the shelf low carb wet food. Check out the http://www.catinfo.org website for an explanation on what to feed cats. There is also a food list there describing most manufactured cat foods. Pick either a canned wet or raw food under 10% carb. Many here use Fancy Feast Pates, Friskies or Wellness grain free. If your cat is a grazer, there is no need to limit him to one meal a day. Try to feed him most of the food in the first half of the insulin cycle. But be careful changing your cat's food. We've had many cats need a lot insulin when they changed to low carb wet food, which means testing at home is important.

You can get Lantus and syringes at any pharmacy. Depending where you live, you may need the vet's prescription for the insulin. If you are in the US, there are Lantus coupons you can use.
 
Hi,

He is at the vet because he bite me three times last week..puncture wounds are black & blue. Legs & both arms.
Clearly he was not feeling well! I needed a break from the constant meowing, begging, & restlessness. Also concerned he will bite my 87 yr old father.

I have home monitored for 3 months now... As I wrote his glucose on Friday was 457. He has not been a happy camper since this all began. I would like to go back to grazing feeding.

Also, give insulin 2 x a day... With food.

I will check on the brands of food you recommend below. Thank you.

Will check in message board tomorrow.
 
You may have started at too high of a dose. If you change foods, you should also reduce your insulin dose. There is a condition called Somogyi rebound. This occurs when the insulin dose is too high. In order to prevent hypoglycemia when too much insulin is give, a cat's body will produce extra glucose. That is why as you increase the dose, you do not see the BG readings lower. Most cats only need 1 - 2 units twice a day. However, eventually your cat will become hypoglycemic and that could be deadly.

I suggest that you start over at 1 unit twice a day, especially if you change foods to a low carb food. Stay at that dose at least one week before determining if you need to increase it. If an increase is needed, only raise it by 1/4 to 1/2 unit. Stay at the new dose for at least another week before increasing again. By staying at a dose for 1 week, you give your cat's body enough time to adjust to the dose.
 
Thank you.. I really did not understand how his BG could be so high & also hypoglycemic ... Your explanation helped. So even if his BG #'s are high his body could be producing more glucose (explains the increased urinating and high levels of glucose in urine). This is a result of too much insulin. Mmm.

I am looking forward to bringing him home tomorrow. I will find out how much insulin the vet has been giving him since Friday. (They did tell me yesterday he would not eat m/d food so they are giving him a/d (For the nutritional support of pets recovering from serious illness, accident and surgery)

They are not open today for clients, ...a tech does go in & take care of them.

Also, I am going to check on the wet pate food that can help save $. I live in florida & one bottle of insulin is $232.00 (I have purchase two so far)
Hills food per 24 cans (12 days / 2 a day) is $41.00. = 80+ per month + vet bills @ $2,300 (includes first visit at vet, glucose curves, tests = $800.0@, food, revolution $90, new cat tree $140 etc) . I am going broke but hope we can resolve this soon.

Thank you so much.. I love Herman but must admit I am afraid of him with all the bites on me

Is there a way to,post pictures on here?
 
To post a picture, you may attach a file less than 640*480 pixels; you may want to check the file siae first in Paint or another photo editor.. When you post, look at the bottom below the posting box and it says attach file. Browse to the location, select it, and optionally place in inline and/or add a caption.

Positive reinforcement may be helpful in getting him to accept testing and injections. Use a low carb treat such as Pure Bites or bits of cooked chicken.

Active play for a good 20 minutes maybe an hour or so before testing may help wear him out and make him easier to handle.

Wear heavy, long pants and a long sleeved shirt to protect yourself when testing or shooting. Use a bathroom for testing and shooting to help control his behavior.

For your safety, you mat need to burrito wrap your cat to restrain him. Take a bath towel and lay it on the floor. Place him in the middle of it. Snuggly wrap each side of the towel around him, like wrapping a burrito. Kneel witj a leg on each side of his body for further restraint.

If necessary, get a cat muzzle.
 
Thank you I will try burrito wrap if necessary! I just don't believe at that point he is comfortable or well.. My father is 87 & I cannot have him harmed. We are are doing all we can. I will post pictures ... Thank you so so much
 
Vet advised peas for a snack... I give him a handful mid afternoon.. ( of course they are cooked & then refrigerated).. However, in days I plan on BG testing... No snacks... He goes crazy begging for food, but I am trying to get an accurate reading
 
oh...
 

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How do I stop the behavioral problems? I try to play with him everyday but he had no interest ... except food. In the past he played like crazy.. we have cat trees, tunnels. wheels, furry things on sticks, tons of little toys he use
to play catch with.. , cat nip, cat condos (2) with blankets he likes, an outside lanai he can enjoy fresh air... etc, etc.
 

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I meant "as it is today".. I clean it, and use Amerigel, and bandaids... had shot 5 yrs ago when I worked in hospital. He has had all rabies shots every year ...in FL it is required...
 
It's incredibly overwhelming at first, trying to make all the pieces fit together. Fancy feast "classics" are a great diet change option. Widely available, cheap, with the right nutritional analysis for diabetic cat (i.e. low-carb). Right now target has a sale on pet supplies with their coupon, spend $40 and get $10 off. You can get a good supply of fancy feast that way.

Home blood testing is really key to getting them regulated. You'll be testing throughout the day to see where his numbers are. Before meals and in the hours following will show you how the insulin is working. About Two hours after shot you'll see his glucose start to drop as the insulin takes effect. The glucose will continue to go down until 'nadir' of it's activity. This will be the point at which his glucose will be the lowest, his numbers will start to rise after this. I suggest posting in the Lantus forum to see their range of Nadirs. (I have my own cat on ProZinc and his nadir was always about six hours after his shots-but I believe Lantus to have a different schedule.)

Try to get a few things down- a schedule, food, testing techniques and go from there. If you try to do everything all at once you'll just be overwhelmed

All the best of luck!
 
Are his claws trimmed? That will help reduce damage.
And get a sweatshirt and denims when you work with him.

He is hungry because he is not regulated. Ever been on a very low cal diet? He's living that because he isn't able to use the food well and he's HUNGRY. You may find that feeding about 50% more food, with a tablespoon or two of water added, divided into mini-meals will help manage that. Time one feeding for shot time, then maybe at 2 and 4 hours after the shot. A timed feeder - ex the PetSafe 5 - can help with the feeding.
 
I do feel overwhelmed with food options, units of insulin, days of BG testing, etc. Thank you for acknowledging that.

I need to write a priority list:

1) I was told by tech today that have him at 3.5 units of Lantus... still not stabilized. in the 400's. I will be bring him home tomorrow and concerned for his health, my heath and my Father.

2) food.. do I change to Friskie as recommended on this group or stay with m/d ... which is costly?

3) Lower dose of insulin.. ??? or take him off all insulin and let him enjoy a few meals free feeding and give him up to the cat God soon???

Did you see the pictures of my body bites?

I have some health problems of my own that put me at risk for high infection.. I dont think any of these bites are infected, however, I do have to be careful.

Wish my boy could play again. & as and always will try to get him rolling all over for his toys/. :)

Thanks..
 
I do feel overwhelmed with food options, units of insulin, days of BG testing, etc. Thank you for acknowledging that.

I need to write a priority list:

1) I was told by tech today that have him at 3.5 units of Lantus... still not stabilized. in the 400's. I will be bring him home tomorrow and concerned for his health, my heath and my Father.

2) food.. do I change to Friskie as recommended on this group or stay with m/d ... which is costly?

3) Lower dose of insulin.. ??? or take him off all insulin and let him enjoy a few meals free feeding and give him up to the cat God soon???

Did you see the pictures of my body bites?

I have some health problems of my own that put me at risk for high infection.. I dont think any of these bites are infected, however, I do have to be careful.

Wish my boy could play again. & as and always will try to get him rolling all over for his toys/. :)

Thanks..
 
I do feel overwhelmed with food options, units of insulin, days of BG testing, etc. Thank you for acknowledging that.

I need to write a priority list:

1) I was told by tech today that have him at 3.5 units of Lantus... still not stabilized. in the 400's. I will be bring him home tomorrow and concerned for his health, my heath and my Father.

2) food.. do I change to Friskie as recommended on this group or stay with m/d ... which is costly?

3) Lower dose of insulin.. ??? or take him off all insulin and let him enjoy a few meals free feeding and give him up to the cat God soon???

Did you see the pictures of my body bites?

I have some health problems of my own that put me at risk for high infection.. I dont think any of these bites are infected, however, I do have to be careful.

Wish my boy could play again. & as and always will try to get him rolling all over for his toys/. :)

Thanks..
 
Thank you Flospy & BJM.

I will look into the Pet Safe 5 .. however, my vet continues to remind me he gets "no treats, snacks, etc) btw morning feeding @ 6:45am and 6:45pm/// I called her twice since March and said that is not going to work//
he wants more food.. so she instructed me to give 1/8 a cup (nothing) of m/d dry food for a snack ( ok more $$$) and cooked peas.. (he does like these), however he still wants more of whatever.. after I give him 1 can m/d and insulin he zonks out but wakes up at odd hours and wants more.. I am so upset cuz I am trying to follow vet advice yet getting nowhere.


He was de-clawed in front when I adopted him.. the bites you see are all from his teeth...
 
Dear Group,

I apologize for posting duplicate messages... I am just getting to learn how to use this MB...I thank you
 
No worries. And this message board can get glitchy upon occasion.

What thing do you want to focus on first? I think I'd go with safety! If you get a bad infection from him attacking you, you may not be able to care for him.

Many older vets were trained with shorter acting insulins (ex Humulin or Novolin N) which hit hard and fast; feeding snacks would boost the glucose more rapidly as the insulin wore off. The newer insulins have a gentle onset and sustained effect so feeding mini meals or modest snacks to spread out the calorie intake actually helps it work better with the insulin. By feeding him a bit more and more often, it may reduce his aggression, which will improve your and your father's safety.

We've had a lot of success with the over the counter low carb foods. My 1st diabetic Spitzer went from 3 units per dose to 1. Others have reported a drop of around 100 mg/dL in glucose level. You just ned to be home testing for safety. Print out the Cat Info information for your vet - it may open his eyes to more current information than he has.
 
Hello group & thank you DMJ for a direct response.

My boy BG today still 400 I had to work & had meetings was not able to pick him..
I will bringin him home tomorrow @. 11am so I can give him focused time.

Vet said ignore recommendations on this MB regarding food.( fancy feasts, etc, pates). And all other recommendations regarding decreasing or increasing insulin. They want me to buy Feliway spray $25.00 to ease his way back to home. Ok will do at same time looking for an adoptive family who will take him in ... I will pay for his insulin if someone will adopt him.

I have medical condition that bites could cause serious problems. I did not mention that earlier because I believe the more we talk about our pain the bigger it gets... :). I miss my boy & cry a lot being separated but know maybe at this point in his life & mine we are not meant to be... Crying like crazy now but want to do best for all!

With peace, love and feline groovy ,

Thank you
 
I figured you meant me.

You can edit your previous post by going to it and clicking edit, then making whatever changes you want. If the content is substantially altered, you can highlight the text and click the button to strike out the unwanted text.

If you need to add stuff, just write ETA (edited to add) and the desire text.
 
Wow.. what a week it has been.. Herman is home :) happy, happy to be with my furry fuddle. he spent last Friday night and Saturday night checking out his domain... and gave us the AOK. :)

Was instructed to test BG two times a day (I have been doing 6:30am and 6:30pm) since last Friday he has bounced from 371, 335 (Friday), 329 at 6:30pm (6/18 only one test cuz he would not stay still for a.m. test ... he ran for the hills) , 6/19/2014 would not let me touch his ears. I tried but poked too many times. gave him a break), 6/20/14 BG 351/389 (a.m. & p.m.) , 6/21/2014 6:30am = 263 (so glad) then 6:30pm 400 ... how could it jump so much.

Insulin Lantus 4.0 units 2x a day after food.

They want me to test 2 x a day... got low on AlphaTrak2 test strips.. Vet said they can order them for me on Friday when I called this morning (Saturday) they said get them at Walgreen's... went to Walgreen's and CVS and they don't sell them.. Finally ordered online $55.00 plus shipping.

I am trying to weigh vet advice with your experience. What really bummed me out is that I called vet as instructed "if I take glucose test please let us know what they are" I called vet on Friday with all numbers and gave them to assistant who answered phone...she said she recorded them. When I called Saturday morning about the the test strips they told me they had no record of my call or the levels I reported (I keep an Excel chart so was able to repeat the BG levels). Also, one tech says we can order strips and another says we can't...

When Herman was at vet for 4 days so I could heal my wounds and get some rest from the stress, I called everyday to see how he was doing... Was told first two days he was hissing and pawing .. not happy be around nearby cats. Sunday they told me was more relaxed and doing good... (was not eating m/d food but would eat a/d food). Part of the overnight stays include letting the cat explore the playroom... (only one cat at a time)... they told me they did not let him out of his boarding cage (3 levels) to go play by himself cuz it might upset him. I thought the opposite ... if he was no longer hissing or upset let him move around a little...

Now we are getting back to the same here... he meows all day for food, (he gets one can M/D breakfast and dinner and dry snack very little M/D mid afternoon). He went to bite me today but I was on guard and picked him and put him on lanai with catnip for an hour.. He follows me everywhere and constantly begging for food. When I work in office, part time, I have to close door cuz he only wants food. I massage his ears, neck, etc. 2x a day .. tried playing toys he has no interest he just tries to lead me to kitchen for food...

Yiks... any advice? Vet did not think the bites on me where a big deal... said .. you can call County.. uh? Unfortunately, I scratched one of the healing bites and now have a rash.. Will live.

Thank you to all who respond and those who don't. I know how hard or easy it can be to live with a cat that has special needs (my Lily died of asthma.. gave her Flovent & Albuterol with cat inhaler everyday.. the Yahoo Group helped so much through that.. Lily never complained and knew her meds were helping her)

I never really get quiet time to myself (take care of elderly Dad) so the late/early hour is best for my concentration.

Hope you have a purrfect day!

AliCat and Herman
 
I will look into other groups who use Lantus... sorry to post so much but most people just don't get what I am talking about.. feline language. :)
 
hi Ali,

I'm new too, and I know only too well how overwhelming it is, but you are not alone.

I can't advise about Lantus, my cat Angel is on caninsulin, but it's worth you trying the feliway diffuser. Also there are toys where you can 'hide' the food, so he has to roll a ball for the food to come out. I've been told to give freeze dried chicken as a low carb treat, you could put that in the ball so he would have to play to get his food. Might get him interested in playing again.

Re the biting, the only thing I can think of is thick clothes and gardening gloves until it's resolved. And you may want to research other vets in your area.

I know you are concerned about the readings jumping around, I'm going through a similar thing, have a look at Angel's spreadsheet.

Try the feliway, make sure your current vet has Herman's best interests at heart and not just trying to sell you expensive prescription food and pet glucose meters.

Hugs to you and Herman x
 
They varen't snacks if you are intentionally dividing his meals into mini-meals. They are part of his daily food plan, intended to match up with how the insulin works. Snacks are extras.

If you look up the insulin curves for cats, you'll often see a somewhat smile shaped curve. It will be very steep for insulins such as Humulin/Novolin or Vetsulin/Caninsulin, less so for PZI or ProZinc, and often even more shallow (a grin, really) with cats on a tight regulation protocol with Lantus or Levemir.

It helps to time the food to the type of insulin - about 30 minutes in advance for Humulin/Novolin and Vetsulin/Caninsulin, vs at shot time for longer duration insulins with mini-meals for cats who tend to spike from eating. Food spikes generally peak about 2 hours after eating a meal. The bigger the meal, the bigger the food spike. Thus, if you divide 1 large meal into 2 or 3 mini-meals, the resultant food spike is lower and matches the incoming insulin better with more control of the overall glucose levels.

Vets don't have much opportunity to immerse themselves in feline diabetes during school and with all the species they treat and the multitudinous conditions, it can be exceptionally difficult to stay on top of everything.
 
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