Diarrhea not from worms...what could it be?

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Martica and Fred

Martica and Fred

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I've been waiting for 3 days for the vet to call me back about Shane's blood tests so don't know blood results yet. But, Shane, the DKA kitty I rescued from the shelter 2 1/2 months ago has had chronic (and awful smelly) diarrhea.

Giving him Fortiflora and Intelliflora helps a bit but has not made it go away. We did a stool sample this week and the vet receptionist told me that it was negative for parasites.

Until I talk to the vet, just guessing, but what else could it be?

I know that pancreatitis is an option although I don't think he has any other symptoms.

He's been on 0.40ish U of Lantus only 1 a day and he's holding steady in the 200s. I'm not doing tight regulation right now, just have not had time and it's hard to give him shots/tests because he's not entirely compliant and moves a lot. So currently just keeping hi in the 200s, he has an extremely flat curve. Only once a day seems weird but seems to be OK. I'll go back to BID and aiming for lower BGs soon when I am able to focus on that.

BUT, what could be causing the diarrhea?
 
I would have them do a pancreatitis test on him. If your only giving him one shot a day it could be that, they can run the Idexx fPl test in the vets office.
My cat Lilly had a bit of runny stool and it was stinky when she had pancreatitis.

Terri
 
My Simba has had unexplained diarreha for a year, and then finally also started getting blood in the diarreha.
I also firstly did stool samples for worms but it was negative.

I will have the vet do stool samples for salmonella, giardia and all those infections. If that turns out negative too, I don't know what the vet will suggest. Perhaps a intestine biopsy.
 
It could be anything like a Irritated Bowl syndrome...maybe

try something simple to give them some relief..

I use single grain baby rice with some warm water added to a paste and the add some Beechnut baby food 1st stage chicken. Serve several times a day. If you see the problem easing then boil some skinless, trimmed chicken breast..smash it and mix with the rice and baby food.

Be careful because some of the food like WD that the vet gives could be as high as 35% carbs !!

Some people give some intestine soothing products people use. However, they must be used with great caution and proper advice from your vet.

Between 180 and 220 is when a cat dumps sugar..,,just ask the vet about that and how it will affect your kitty being in the low 200s.

And are they eating the same food at the shelter and did they have it at the shelter?

Best of luck!
 
Thanks everyone. And George, what do you mean low 200s...how is that different than any other high number?

So I only got a message form the vet but ALL blood tests normal, his BG at the vet was 262, which I expected. We are waiting for fructosamine and B12.

Since I got him, he's only been on canned Wellness, Merrick, BG, Nature's Variety--all low carb, hi Pro, no grain....Almost 3 months now so if it was a diet change, you'd think he'd get used to it. I've been giving him fortiflora and Intelliflora with every meal for at least 2 months it helps somewhat, I think if I give hiim a lot.

What are these intestinal 'soothing' things exactly.

What is the pancreatitis test, I thought they could not test for it.

My current vet won't know much about the DB for sure, probably not so much about anything chronic...he's better for emergency rescue situations I think.

He tested negative for parastites and worms including Giardia. He was giving Strongid, 2 doses a month ago and it affected nothing.

So is there anything immediately pallative I can do to help...pumpkin? enzymes? Still waiting to hear from wait. Very tough to talk to him, also thinking I won't get a lot of solutions from him for anything chronic anyway.

thanks
 
Martica,

If he is not getting enough insulin it can throw him into pancreatitis I think. I will let the others comment on that. He should be getting 2 shots a day of Lantus and the same dose each time. Yes they can do a test in the vets office for pancreatitis called an Idexx fPl test.

Terri
 
Hi Martica-

I just love that picture of Fred!
Regarding the liquipoo - one stomach soother is slippery elm. I got mine in Whole Foods. If you google "slippery elm for cats" you can read more about it. I've used it before.
I've tried pumpkin-it has to be 100% pumpkin-but Trinket wouldn't eat it. Merlin did. ECID.
IBD - intestinal bowel disease is another idea. The only way to dx that is a biopsy. Boomer had one - they can do it without opening up the cat but they do need to be put asleep. He had moderate IBD.
When I first got Merlin he had poop issues for months. As soon as I swtiched to Welleness her got better overnight. Sometimes you get lucky and find something that works. I wish that happened more often!!!
 
Thank you all.

Well the thing is, or the problem, is that I don't think he has other symptoms of pancreatitis, such as loss of appetite or weight loss. He DID have weight loss--when I saved him from DKA at the shelter he was fur and bones--he's gained 4 lbs in 2 1/2 months though. Still underweight but gaining. He def. does not have a loss of appetite.

Yes, I know insulin is BID and started on that but he seems to be ok, he never ever spikes up--which is odd, don't know why, but very flat curve. I will go back to a tighter regulation but I just don't think the insulin is the issue.

So...maybe IBD? I hate to get a biopsy and put him under just to determine this.

He gets Wellness some of the time. I guess I'll try adding pumpkin. The probiotics def. help but I need to give him a lot more.

I guess I'll see what the vet has to say. Damn, I was hoping it was worms.

He's not incontinent at least, it's only diarrhea when he poops, and of various consistencies, some days better than others. But DAMN does it stink. It's almost unbearable and I can smell it in my living room even though the litter tray is in the walk in closet with door mostly closed--especially because he doesn't cover it with the litter. I have to run immediately and scoop it or I just about gag. Why is it so darn smelly compraed to regular poop?

. Also, his fur is not totally healthy and he is probably a bit dehydrated still, so he's not absorbing all the nutrients he needs still I think.

I will read those links above, thanks.
 
Yes, I remember you saying Fred was your sould cat. He's a STUNNING cat....so regal. Beautiful color.

You are doing an amazing job taking care of your sick kitty. It's very hard work!!!
 
Hi Martica, how about giving raw food a try since he doesn't seem to have appetite problems, it might go over very well. I have heard so many people say that once they started feeding raw, their cat's IBD symptoms (if that is what this is), cleared up, no diarrhea, and the stinky poo went away. With my Tigger, you wouldn't even know he just pooped in the litterbox if it was right next to you.

There are many raw food companies out there. I get mine from Feline's Pride (in my signature). They do send out sample packs for you to try. Some people object to the shipping costs, but they ship from New York so maybe it wouldn't be as expensive for you.

You might try adding a little at a time to his food while you transition over and see if it starts to make a difference.

Here is a good site also on feeding raw food, the benefits, and places they suggest buying raw or making your own if you are able to do that:

http://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition
 
pamela and tigger said:
Hi Martica, how about giving raw food a try since he doesn't seem to have appetite problems, it might go over very well. I have heard so many people say that once they started feeding raw, their cat's IBD symptoms (if that is what this is), cleared up, no diarrhea, and the stinky poo went away. With my Tigger, you wouldn't even know he just pooped in the litterbox if it was right next to you.

There are many raw food companies out there. I get mine from Feline's Pride (in my signature). They do send out sample packs for you to try. Some people object to the shipping costs, but they ship from New York so maybe it wouldn't be as expensive for you.

You might try adding a little at a time to his food while you transition over and see if it starts to make a difference.

Here is a good site also on feeding raw food, the benefits, and places they suggest buying raw or making your own if you are able to do that:

http://feline-nutrition.org/nutrition
Click to expand...

What she said! I fought bad diarrhea with all three of mine until I switched them to raw.
 
Hmmm...interesting, yes I have been debating switching to raw. I"m going to have their teeth cleaned by that woman fro California from Houndstooth Cleaning (no anesthesia) and the place where I'm going to do it sells raw food. I could never make it myself, I'm a vegan nearly and its about all I can do to open these cans up! :)

But I have 6 cats at the moment so wouldn't they all have to go on raw then? It's just very difficult to segregate them during feeding. Another I just saved had early kidney disease it turns out, I was thinking that raw would be good for hiim to....I guess the only thing is, are there any cons to raw? How does it work being frozen? Do you have to take it out in advance and let it thaw and heat it up or what? I'm thinking also in terms of what if I travel, how easy would it be to have a catsitter do raw?

Also, is is possible for them to eat a mix of both? Say raw at night and canned in the morning? Or do you have to do all or nothing?

thanks!
 
Martica and Fred said:
Hmmm...interesting, yes I have been debating switching to raw. I"m going to have their teeth cleaned by that woman fro California from Houndstooth Cleaning (no anesthesia) and the place where I'm going to do it sells raw food. I could never make it myself, I'm a vegan nearly and its about all I can do to open these cans up! :)
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Dr. Lisa has posted about this a few times on the old board about anesthesia free dentals. She is not in favor of them unfortunately. Here are a number of threads where she addresses it. One of which mentions the company you are referring to as well:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/read.php?8,220134

http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/read.php?8,88833,89077,sv=1#msg-89077

http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/read.php?8,545433,545433,sv=2#msg-545433

Martica and Fred said:
But I have 6 cats at the moment so wouldn't they all have to go on raw then? It's just very difficult to segregate them during feeding. Another I just saved had early kidney disease it turns out, I was thinking that raw would be good for hiim to....I guess the only thing is, are there any cons to raw? How does it work being frozen? Do you have to take it out in advance and let it thaw and heat it up or what? I'm thinking also in terms of what if I travel, how easy would it be to have a catsitter do raw?
Click to expand...

I guess I would feed it to the two that seem to need it the most and segregate them if you can. The link I gave you above gives lots of tips on feeding raw. I don't think there are any cons, at least not that I can think of. Some people might say it is more expensive, but I was donating a lot of canned food to shelters that Tigger would turn up his nose to, when he would eat them just the week before. It was frustrating. Plus the savings in vet bills since he is so much healthier now. We have been feeding raw for about four years now - he will be 17 this year and so far he is pretty healthy. :)

Martica and Fred said:
Also, is is possible for them to eat a mix of both? Say raw at night and canned in the morning? Or do you have to do all or nothing?
Click to expand...

I don't know why you couldn't, if that is what you have to do. Although Dr. Lisa has talked about Carrageenan as one ingredient in canned food that causes intestinal inflammation in human cells. Her thinking is that it probably does the same in cats and could be especially bad for IBD kitties. Check the labels on your canned foods and see if it is listed there.
 
Martica and Fred said:
But I have 6 cats at the moment so wouldn't they all have to go on raw then? It's just very difficult to segregate them during feeding. Another I just saved had early kidney disease it turns out, I was thinking that raw would be good for hiim to....I guess the only thing is, are there any cons to raw? How does it work being frozen? Do you have to take it out in advance and let it thaw and heat it up or what? I'm thinking also in terms of what if I travel, how easy would it be to have a catsitter do raw?

Also, is is possible for them to eat a mix of both? Say raw at night and canned in the morning? Or do you have to do all or nothing?

thanks!
Click to expand...

The cat with kidney disease, I'd get a consult with Dr. Pierson. Her website says in several places not to feed the raw diet recipe she uses for CKD. BUT, that said, she may know of better options for you that may help him stay healthier longer. Considering how yucky mine felt as healthy cats on canned, if/when the time comes Dr. Pierson will be hearing from me about how to change up the recipe/whatever so I can best help my cats.

As far as cons, I've not found any. I use Dr. Pierson's recipe from www.catinfo.org and couldn't be happier so far. All three cats' diarrhea ceased, their coats look better, and Gadget stopped sneezing as much. I think the little bit he sneezes now is because the litterbox is a GREAT starting gate. :roll: There's also less waste in the litterbox and there is almost no smell.

For my own ease, I bought a ton of those individual sandwich-sized plastic containers and serve up The raw that way. I make 12 lbs at a time and individually refrigerate/freeze them. When the fridge starts getting low on catfood, I get it out of the freezer and let it defrost. A sort of "rotation" if you will. I'm a nursing student and am often not at home, so lunch is served by a friend who has a key. He walks in, throws that morning's bowls in the sink, grabs new ones from the fridge, pops off the lids and sets them down. That's it. Some nibble immediately, some wait. No one has gotten sick yet.

When I first questioned doing raw here at this forum, some do only raw and others do a mix. I guess it just depends on what works best for your crowd. Mine were sick on canned, so I eliminated canned.
 
Definitely consider testing for giardia/coccidia as that won't show up in a regular fecal.

Also, my kitty has been very sensitive to foods and many give her chronic diarrhea. I haven't narrowed down any particular food culprit, but changing foods would clear it up ASAP. This happened with even very HQ foods.

As previously noted, pumpkin could help in the short term, but I would be more concerned about a long term solution.

GL
 
Thanks everyone.

Well he was tested for giardia and that was negative.

There is no possible way I can make my own raw food. I live in a NYC apartment and the kitchen just is not big enough to do it and have all the meat grinder stuff. Plus I"m about 95% vegan and no way could I handle making it without throwing up. The canned food is hard enough!
The only way for me to do it is to buy the premade raw. And I can't separate my cats, again, it's a space issue and with 6 it's just not easy when they are all hungry and clamoring and I have no door on my kitchen, etc.

So anyway, I got some good ideas here.

I'll check out Dr Lisa's column about the dental. The vet gave me antibiotic to give to one cat pre-dental because she has gingivitis. I'm going to go ahead and give it a try though because 1) the quotes I've gotten for dentals here at NYC vets is $400-500 per cat--and that's BEFORE any extractions. So I just can't pay $2400-3400 for all the cats for basic cleaning. All the cats are young and their teeth are in good shape so this is a preventive thing. Only one has the gingivitis already and the vet said her teeth are not actually bad BUT. If she needs a real dental I'll take her, apparently the Houndstooth women will NOT do her thing if she thinks a real dental is needed.

I'll report back when I do it (in about 3 weeks)

thanks!
Martica
 
I just read those Dr Lisa posts. Hmmmm....definitely makes me think twice but not sure it will make me not do it.

One thing that was unclear...was the lawsuit mentioned against Houndstooth, or some other outfit. The person I am going to is Dali from Houndstooth, whom someone else was raving about in one of the threads. She has video on her website of the procedure and the animals are calm, not totallys tressed out. She did mentioned that she sometimes puts one of those pressure coats on them and that also helps make them feel secure.

From what I can see, she operates out of vets offices when she travels. And she was wanting to make some more connections with more NYC vets.

Very hard to know what to do. I can't see how it could hurt more than doing nothing. Although maybe all the cats need to be on antibiotics, not just the one with gingivitis already. I am not able to brush their teeth--these are ALL rescues that I save in the last year. I can barely cut most of their claws. Not like my Fred who would let me do anything I wanted and trusted me 200%.

Sometimes you just do what you can do and when it's ALREADY a lot it's hard to do more. Especially if you don't have time to chase your cats around or or are likely to get mauled when they don't want to do what you want them to do! I nearly lost my eye trying to cut one of my cat's claws. And this was trying to wrap him in a kitty burrito even. He is Abyssinian and very very aggressive--has failed 5 iinterviews for a furever parent--he is so strong he could get out of the damn kitty burrito!

HOWEVER, I did discover that if I took him out of my apartment, now in a new environment he didn't fight anymore, only at home did he feel the power to fight and get away. So now I'm cutting his claws not at home. Although I dread it still since he will bite my face given the opportunity.
 
I know you are doing the best you can with the money you have, but do you really think cats that are so stressed simply by you, their momma, trying to clip their nails or brush their teeth are going to be still enough for anesthesia free cosmetic "dental"? And how terrifying it will be for them seeing instruments and things coming at their face while awake?

And please, they are not going to put on the videotape the animals that struggle.

There is a reason Houndstooth is in New York now and not California.. they have been banned from practicing in California. Evidently NY laws are different.
http://www.cvma.net/images/cvmapdf/TeethCleaningAnimals.pdf
http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/say-no-to-anesthesia-free-dental-cleaning.html
 
Martica, look at the ingredients in the food that you are feeding. I found that dried egg product made Jeddie's stool totally liquid. It took me a while to figure it out because I was feeding good foods - mixing Wellness with a medium quality food and sometime Evo Cat & Kitten. Because I was rotating foods he would have some good days and some bad days. I was adding Fortiflora too. I started reading labels and discovered that the medium quality food and Cat & Kitten had dried egg product so I stopped feeding that and within a week or so no more diarrhea. Two of the foods you mention have dried egg in them (Wellness does not). I have four cats and only one that reacted like this to egg. You just have to play sleuth to find the problem. This does not sound like pancreatitis to me.

I would strongly urge you to start insulin bid and get him below 180. With a kitty that has had DKA, why risk the higher numbers?

Putting a cat under anesthesia is a scary thing. It's has risk, but I don't think I would ever have a dental done without anesthesia. It would be too scary and painful for the cat. My vet talked about giving "puffs" of inhaled anesthesia to just keep them under for cats that are at higher risk (older, heart issues, etc.). That is something you could discuss with your vet. Pain killers would need to be used, I think, before the procedure because what my vet is talking about is something that keeps them woozy, but not completely out, so I think they would feel pain. And what if they need an extraction?

Yeah, it would be great if we could reason with them (the cats) and ask them to endure the procedure, but all they know is that someone is hurting them. Hopefully, one day there will be safer anesthesia for animals and/or less painful dental procedures, but until then we have to accept what is available now.
 
Lisa,
Actually the cats seem to feel free to freak out about the nail clipping when they are at home, but out of their home environment they calm down. That's what I finally figured out with my aggressive cat. I actually volunteer at Petco with a cat rescue group and I took him there and had someone else cut the claws while I held him (twice now) and he was a little baby, let us do whatever.

It's sort of the same at the vet, I've tried brushing their teeth, can't even get near their mouth...the vet of course gets them to succumb and they are fine not freaking out. My guess is that this tooth lady is going to be able to do a similar thing. She said that she would not do it if cat was too stressed, because obviously she also cannot.

Sheila, Interesting about the egg product. I'll go read the labels. I'm not mixing with any lower quality food but I'll see if any have egg in them. It certainly does seem to vary in consistency a bit--the diarrhea--so maybe it is one ingredient. I do switch foods from meal to meal.

Also, I got sample of the raw food sent to me today...5 of the 6 cats seems to be fine eating it, a couple needed Fortiflora sprinkled on it but then they continued to eat it. There were 2 vomits, and not sure who they came from (well one of them is a mystery) The 6th cat, not sure if he had any, don't think so.

Anyway, we'll see, they were all still hungry so I gave them canned BG a little later. I gave them the rabbit flavor Tomorrow I"ll try the chicken.
 
Hmmm...so I got the samples of Feline Pride raw rabbit, chicken and...turkey I think...and there is actually egg in there.

Anyway, meal 1 of this stuff I found 2 throw-ups. I had given them JUST that food. After that I've started giving them half anned and half raw and sprinkling some fortiflora on it. Have not seen anymore throw up. They seem to like it.

I must say, I'm a vegan and I'm absolutely horrified to look at this stuff. There is BLOOD floating around. It's pretty disgusting. I'm not sure how long I can hack it. We've gone thru 2 containers, the rabbit and the chicken. Now just one more left. It looks so much like real flesh that all I can think is, this poor rabbit that was murdered for this :( I was also grossed out my canned in the early years and now ok with it, maybe there is an acclimatization process that hapens. I don't know but it's truly revolting. How do you omnivores eat animals foods, especially when you have to pick up the raw flesh and cook it yourself. It's very alarming to me.

Saying that, I believe I seeing less poop and possibly less diarrhea. There is def. less poop (is that the way it works?) and so I'm not sure if there is less diarrhea because there is less poop or beause there is less diarrhea--like soft stools...anyway, it's only been about 3 days of feeding--and doing it with canned as well, so I will try not to gag as I do this and I will probably order more. I have to figure out the pricing, it is kind of expensive although haven't really figured out if it is astronomically so, or just a little bit. Hard to get a handle on portion sizes. But my or my it's really gross. :sad:
 
Martica and Fred said:
...
It's sort of the same at the vet, I've tried brushing their teeth, can't even get near their mouth...the vet of course gets them to succumb and they are fine not freaking out. My guess is that this tooth lady is going to be able to do a similar thing. She said that she would not do it if cat was too stressed, because obviously she also cannot.
...
Click to expand...

It isn't about them being calm for the dental, its about preventing PAIN during the dental. Dr Pierson clearly describes how cleaning below the gum line is PAINFUL. No cat is likely to be calm if it hurts. Please have them use some anesthesia.
 
So it appears that this raw stuff has cured Shane Sebastian's diarrhea! It's a little hard to tell because I only caught him in the act once and he had poops, they were soft but they were poops rather than a blob. And other than that for the past 5 days I have not discovered any more diarrhea--sine pre-raw food. He has not been eating all raw food, only a little bit--basically half raw and half canned. But that seems to have done the trick.

I was sent a sample of 1 lb each of rabbit, chicken and turkey. It's gross as I mentioned, but I scooped out some and gave it along with the canned. Have no idea how much...maybe 1-2 oz per meal.

Now I have run out so today and tomorrow at least he is going to be eating the regular canned again. Will be interesting to see if it comes back or that slight change allowed things to clear up.

But I am going to order some more of the stuff. There definitely is less poop and less stinkiness from all of them.
 
Martica and Fred said:
So it appears that this raw stuff has cured Shane Sebastian's diarrhea! It's a little hard to tell because I only caught him in the act once and he had poops, they were soft but they were poops rather than a blob. And other than that for the past 5 days I have not discovered any more diarrhea--sine pre-raw food. He has not been eating all raw food, only a little bit--basically half raw and half canned. But that seems to have done the trick.

I was sent a sample of 1 lb each of rabbit, chicken and turkey. It's gross as I mentioned, but I scooped out some and gave it along with the canned. Have no idea how much...maybe 1-2 oz per meal.

Now I have run out so today and tomorrow at least he is going to be eating the regular canned again. Will be interesting to see if it comes back or that slight change allowed things to clear up.

But I am going to order some more of the stuff. There definitely is less poop and less stinkiness from all of them.
Click to expand...

Martica, that is good news! I hope he continues to improve - please do let us know. Thank you for the update. :)
 
Update: Well he ate the last of that Feline's Pride raw on Sunday morning.
On Sunday eve and Monday morning he ate the regular canned again.
Verdict? Diarrhea returned on Monday afternoon.

Wowie. So last night--Monday night--I went and picked up some Nature's Variety's chicken raw medallions at Petco (I had ordered some more Feline's Pride but they send it so I had a few day's of diarrhea if I didn't get another alternative.)

Luckily they had a little trial size bag that has 12 little servings "medallions" in it. It wasn't very much, I forget how much now. But last night and this morning I gave him 1/2 raw ansd 1/2 canned again. No more diarrhea.

It's sort of a miracle.

I like the medallions much better, they are not nearly as digusting as the bloody gook that is Feline's Pride. HOwever, from what I can tell, reading, FP is a little better for them.

In terms of size I shared 4 medallions among 6 cats for one meal (with a 12 oz can of Wellness being split among them as well). I actually tried to give Shane Sebastian almost a full medallion since he actually has a problem that this helps with.

At some point once we're settled into half canned and half raw, I'm going to figure out the cost per cat per month with this regimen. I don't think I'll go totally raw because you really have to have a schedule with the thawing, but I'm def. going to stay half and half and see how that affects them all..
 
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