Dazed & Confused Newbie (needs help regulating)

[Barn Cats R Us]

Hello All,

I’ve been camped-out on this web site for the better part of the week...so, I figured it’s time to introduce myself, and explain my situation(s).

I am the caretaker/mommy of the remainder of an old barn cat colony. They were 36-strong when I first got involved back in the late 90’s...but back then, I was stronger too! I’m now dealing with the 10 remaining survivors, old age (mine and theirs), and the complications that come with said old age. I look back on the olden days fondly; 36 proud felines...with puncture wounds, abscesses, respiratory infections, battle scars, etc. Nowadays, the situation is more ominous...various cancers, organ failure, kidney disease...and now, diabetes x 2.

Clark Kent (aka: Clarky Poo Boogaloo) (FIV+) was dx’d in May, of this year, by my previous vet. He was “regulated” within a few hours at the vet’s facility. Rx at that time, and to this day = 2.5 units Humulin N BID + Purina DM cans & dry. I’ve had some touch and go moments with Clarky, possibly due to the Humulin N factor, or dosage, but more on this later. My biggest concern this weekend is regarding newly dx’d sugar cat #2.

Marilyn Munster Monroe (aka: Mar-Mar) was dx’d on Tuesday of this week (11/08/11). She was not “regulated”, so I suppose her Rx is temporary = 1 unit Humulin N BID + DM cans & dry. I started noticing her at the H2O bowl, too often, a few weeks back. Next, I noticed she wasn’t grooming, which ultimately led me to realize she wasn’t feeling well. So, I stood there staring at her last week (between vets, I might add), while rubbing together my two remaining brain cells, and I thought, “Oh no, you’re not!” Well, oh yes, she is...but I digress.

My dilemma is twofold; my longtime vet “regulated” Clark within a few hours. When I asked if I needed to get a meter, she looked at me as if I had three heads...and I assure you all, I only have two. I am almost certain he has gone hypo many times (unresponsive, rapid breathing...I call it an episode) but the vet merely wanted a fructosamine, not a discussion. Supposedly, his tests are “perfect”. I also attempted a discussion regarding an insulin change, but I got the “three heads” look. Long story short, I have a Relion Confirm in transit. It should arrive next Wednesday; not a moment too soon.

Now for Marilyn...I have a new vet (new as in this week). She subscribes to home regulation. Great, right? While regulating Marilyn, I’ll gain a better understanding of the disease and its’ treatment, and be able to provide Clark the attention he needs too. Not so fast...after the new vet stated why home regulation is best for the stress factor, she asked if I had a meter. I was now embarrassed to say I did not, but told her I would get one (for each of them) right away. She said to go ahead and start 1 Unit Humulin N BID, and this ended the phone call; this was Tuesday. I received Marilyn’s meter the next evening (Wed). I was testing her BG level by 1 AM Thurs. I called the vet to tell her how high her readings were (from early AM to Thurs. afternoon). I asked her for advice on how to accomplish this regulation thing. She asked why I was already testing her. I explained that since she’s been receiving insulin since Tuesday, without any tests, I thought I should get on it right away. She told me to stop; that I am going to make her ears sore.

Wow, okay, I have to stop talking about this. I’m starting to make myself angry. The bottom-line is that I have no idea how to go about this. The final word from the vet was to test her on Sunday, and call her on Monday with...quite frankly, I don’t know what with...the BG readings? The dosage I decide on??? She never told me what increments to increase by, or for that matter, to increase them at all...nothing, besides “regulate her at home”. Am I supposed to do a 12-hour curve on Sunday using the 1 Unit dosage, so she can tell me what to bump it up to? Then do a 12-hour curve with the new dosage? Why wouldn’t she at least have a procedure sheet printed-up, if she subscribes to home regulation? Am I missing something big?

And so, I am here. I am dazed & confused, and at your mercy! I totally apologize for this lengthy post, and all of the incessant babbling it contains. If anyone thinks they can rein me in, please be my guest. Better yet, if anyone is able to walk me through the “Sunday regulation”, I would be eternally grateful.

Your Humble Student,

Deb


Hi Again,

Okay, stop the press. I just found the “5 Steps to Regulating Your Diabetic Cat”. This site is a massive wealth of information. Maybe my new vet should just hand people this article when she tells clients to regulate at home! At least I'm calmer now! lol

Now I see many problems:

1. I don’t have Ketostix on hand, and don’t know if I can actually monitor her urine. I would have to research this.
2. It states Humulin N is not a suitable starting insulin, but that is what I have, it’s what Clark has always been on, and it is what Marilyn is on now.
3. It states not to increase dosage for at least a week after initial dosage, so now I’m really not sure what Sunday is all about. I guess it is just a 12-hour curve to see how she is responding to the 1 unit BID.

Any insight?

Thanks so much,

Deb

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

Hi Deb and your sugarkitties!
Wow. OK, first things first. You know how to hometest, and that's a huge step on the way to managing this. Awesome.

Your first vet is an idiot, and the 2nd, well, she's at least got some clues.
The first one didn't "regulate" Clark in a few hours, and starting on a dose as high as 2.5, and just keeping him there means she's got little idea how to manage this disease. Her opposition to home tests is a 2nd strike, and opposition to a change of insulin means three strikes, she's out. The only positive I read was that she does fructosimine tests, which are a better indicatior of BG than a single ear poke (fruct tests give them an average over like a two week time frame, and remove "vet stress" from the picture).
I'm guessing vet #2 recommended H insulin because you already had some on hand, but she might be open to a change for both kitties? If so, good deal. But telling you to stop testing? In case her ears get sore? Why would she ask if you had a meter if she didn't want you to use it???? Don't stop. Please test before ever thinking about giving her a shot. Not sure what she has in mind when telling you to call her, unless it's to hear what kind of numbers you get on Sunday. Seems to me if you had numbers from several days, that'd be more useful data to her?

Here's what I'd do....
Test both kitties before each shot. Oh, you are dosing twice a day, 12 hours apart, right? If not, that's the best plan. Test, then feed, then dose once you know they've eaten. And we recommend NOT shooting on a BG under 200 until you have collected enough data to know what that dose will do to the BG.

So, every 12 hours, test, feed and shoot (if BG is high enough). Then maybe test 4 or 6 hours after the shot to see how low the BG goes. You don't want it going too low. "hypo" we usually consider a risk if the BG goes near 50. ECID (every cat is different), but "normal" for a cat is between 50-120. Below that, kitty can be in trouble.

Doses - We usually recommend a starting dose of 1u, twice a day, or lower. And, when making adjustments, we advocate a "go slow" approach. 1/4 unit, or at most 1/2 unit up or down. And we try to hold a given dose for several days, continue testing, and collect the data. Most people put it on a spreadsheet, and I am sure that tomorrow when everybody wakes up, somebody will link you to the googledocs site where everyone stores theirs. For now, just write it all down.


You are right on the insulin choice - not a good one. Humulin N is too quick acting and short duration. Maybe the vet doesn't understand that insulin acts twice as fast on kitties than it does on dogs? Anyway, the 3 insulins of choice here are lantus, levemir and Prozinc/PZI. The first two are human long lasting types. PZI is bovine based insulin, developed for kitties. All three work well. The "L" insulins work more or less the same way - they build a "shed" of insulin that is intended to keep insulin in kittie's system all day long. PZI acts more like Humulin, but it lasts longer and isn't as quick to act. The protocols for each are a little different, and you can read about them in the "Insulin Support Group" forums for each type, in the "sticky" threads towards the top of the index page.

See if your vet is open to switching insulin types. Oh, I forgot to check your profile to see if you've listed where you live (city. and state). Chances are there are other members of the board close to you. That can be helpful.

Food- Your vet prescribed it? Best thing for a diabetic cat is to lose the dry food completely and forever. Dry food is kryptonite for diabetic cats. Too many carbs. If you click on the "Binky's" link in my sig, you'll go to a page full of useful nutrition info. Links to the "old" and "new" canned food lists are there. Most of us feed lower cost, off the shelf low carb canned food. Probably the most used are Fancy Feast classic flavors, Friskees Pates, Wal-Mart's Special Kitty, and Petsmart's Sophisticat pates. If you look at the charts, focus on the "carbs" column. You want to try to feed foods with a carb % of 7% or less. The lower the better actually. Lots of time, just a change to that diet will drop BG numbers 100 points or more. One important thing to keep in mind is that if the BG is going to drop from a food change, you really have to watch the numbers and make sure the insulin dose isn't going to be "too much".

We advocate checking blood glucose before EVERY shot. It is the only way to safely determine if it is safe to shoot. We also encourage getting tests about 6 hours after the shot, when the insulin should have reached its peak effectiveness. That tells you if the dose is right, too high, or too low.


OK, way past bedtime for me.

This is an amazing place, and if you've been hanging out reading for a week, you already know that. In the morning, lots of others will be dropping in and helping you out. So, keep reading, keep asking questions, and be glad you found "us".
Welcome to the "family",
Carl in SC

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Hi Carl,

Nice to "meet" you! Wow, is right...I loved how long you continued after "OK, way past bedtime for me". I'm guessing you wrote everything that followed in your sleep!

Thank you so much for all of the good insight. From what I've seen of this site, there's a lot of wonderful, caring, people here...and apparently you are one of them.

Okay, firstly, I went back and looked at Clark's charts. He was at the vet for the whole day. So I'm guessing any attention he received was between 10 AM & 5 PM. Does that make a difference from the original "few hours" that I stated? I don't know what kind of tests the vet uses when regulating on-site. What I do know, now that I've found this site, is that he was "regulated" and sent home with DM the same day. This means he didn't start his new Rx diet until after the so-called regulation, and his dose has never changed. Pretty scary considering the unresponsive state I have found him in...on more occasions than I care to think about. I've always given him Nutrical, or Laxatone, during those times...but without a meter, who knows if that was the right thing. I conveyed all of this to her. I know see on this site that Karo is a better way to go, but again, only if I had-had a meter. Very scary, I can't wait until it arrives on Tues, or Wed. In the meantime, I have been dosing without testing since 5/02/11...and yes, it's twice a day.

The new vet offered a different insulin; I can't remember what is was. At any rate, it was going to cost something like 5 x more than Humulin N, so she said to stick with it...the Humilin that is. Cost is a factor with so many to care for...it just is. Anyway, when she said to regulate at home, I just assumed it was a one day thing...like (supposedly) with Clark. I couldn't understand why she had no further instructions, and quite frankly, I still don't. It seems like sticking with you guys is the way to go on this.

By the way, I picked up a case of Fancy Feast Classic Chicken when I purchased Marilyn's BG meter on Wed. I didn't know about the Friskies Pate; I've used this food daily, for many years now, for those that need canned food for whatever reason. It's the cheapest out there; who knew it actually served a good purpose? Well, at least I didn't know. I assumed it was crap.

Okay, way, way past bedtime. Hey, I just scrolled down to your post, and the "past bedtime" comment moved down to the end. Am I going crazy, or was it a few paragraphs higher a little while ago? If it wasn't, disregard my first sentence, and assume I'm half-past loopy! Good lord, it's 5 AM...it's been quite a week. I guess I won't be hitting this board again until the afternoon.

Thanks again,

Deb in Chester County, PA

 

[Hillary & Maui (GA)]

DEb - Hi you've got great information so far from Carl.

I skimmed through the posts and if I'm repeating things, apologies. hopefully I will cover some additional subjects.

There are three key factors to diabetes management: insulin, food and home testing and all these things work together.

You can't regulate a cat in a few hours, a day or even a week.

Think about what happens when a human is a diabetic - it takes months, sometimes years and sometimes never to go into remission and get off insulin. Why - diet, exercise, damage to the body, etc. are all factors that play into this disease.

Humans test themselves multiple times a day by poking their fingers. Have you ever heard of a human doctor tell the patient, don't test or you will make your fingers sore? No, it would be ridiculous for a doctor to say that. They would never allow a patient to get insulin without knowing their numbers.

Why is it any different because the patient is an animal and not a person? It's not.

But for some reason, vets think that if you treat your animal in the same manner you would treat yourself, you are hurting them. (My former vet actually forbade me from home testing).

Regarding the insulin type - Carl mentioned the three types we recommend here and if you can use them you find this process a bit easier to manage. Get the vet to write you a scrip for one of these insulins. And also for syringes - U100 with 1/2 unit markings (short needles I believe are easier to use).

You can use this syringe for all the insulins mentioned above - however if using prozinc/pzi you will need to convert your measurements to fit this syringe - don't worry, it's easy here is the conversion chart - http://gorbzilla.com/conversion_calculator.htm

Regarding food, I would definitely stop feeding dry, return the prescription food and ask for a refund and start feeding low carb canned foods http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm

Don't get too hung up on the ketone testing. yes it's important, but if you can't test the urine, that's fine, maybe some point you will be able to.

I would concentrate on the bg testing and you can use the same meter for both cats. You can create charts for both cats, we have a template in google that you can follow. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

Let us know how else we can help. I see you are in Chester County, I grew up in Delaware County not too far from you.

 

[Louieorangetabby]

Hi there and welcome!
I'm very new to having a diabetic kitty~ and this wonderful group of folks gave me the life-line I needed! I would say that the information you get here is worth its weight in gold! The vet who diagnosed my kitty did encourage home testing, did prescribe Lantus insulin, but put him on way too high a dose, and was clearly not sure what he was doing. He was insulted & annoyed when I asked if the dose was too high~ because I had already found this website & community and was getting very worried input here about the high dose Louie was started on! Its been fascinating to learn how little so many vets really know about FD.......and so reassuring to find an intelligent well informed and experienced group of people dealing with this on a day to day basis!
I've gone from having my brain scrambled and being freaked out, to feeling empowered and educated day by day by this forum~
so great job for being here in the first place, and just know that you can rely on the information and encouragement you will find here!!
all the best to you and your kitties!
Tracy & Louie

 

[BJM]

Some side notes:

- low carb diets may be helpful for any cats with cancer - it seems cancer really likes to use the carbs to grow.

- canned food provides a substantial amount of water in the diet; dry food does not and the cat won't drink enough to compensate. Canned food, therefore, will be better for any having kidney issues. Canned food that is low phosphorus (http://www.felinecrf.org/canned_food_usa.htm) is helpful to any renal kitties you may have.

- canned food is also less calorie dense per oz, so if any of the clouder are obese, switching to canned food may help with that immensely. One of mine lost 2 pounds in 4 months without portion control when I switched everyone to canned food upon the diagnosis of one with diabetes. (its difficult to feed separate diets per cat with 11!)

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

Deb
You aren't crazy! I was reviewing my novel before adding the "ok, bedtime" bit, and when I posted it, I realized I had stuck it in the middle of things...it really must have been beyond time for bedtime! When I saw that, I went back and edited it. Lol

If you have seen hypo type symptoms in either kitty, then you should definitely back off the dose. I would drop that 2.5 down to one unit and start over now that you'll be testing. I think it was always too high.

Carl

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Hi All,

First, I would like to apologize for the lengthy message you are about to receive...this is why my vet hated me. Second, but most important, I would like to thank everyone for their insight, genuine concern, and time. I am brand new to message boards (of any topic, on any site...you are my first!), so let's see if I can go about this in a concise manner...here goes...

You can't regulate a cat in a few hours, a day or even a week.

Hillary: Thank you for this. It's amazing how a simple sentence, like this, can clear-up an overwhelming state of confusion, just like that.

Have you ever heard of a human doctor tell the patient, don't test or you will make your fingers sore? No, it would be ridiculous for a doctor to say that.

Yes, it was absurd. That's why I abruptly stopped documenting the conversation here. My blood was starting to boil, and I didn't want to come across as an insane person...I'll save that for later, when I know you all better.

And also for syringes - U100 with 1/2 unit markings (short needles I believe are easier to use).

This is the syringe I've used all along...so that's off the checklist.

Don't get too hung up on the ketone testing. yes it's important, but if you can't test the urine, that's fine, maybe some point you will be able to

The vet wanted a urine sample, but Marilyn's bladder felt empty, so she didn't attempt a bladder draw. I don't know if she wanted it to test ketones, but I guess this needs to be on my "To Do" list. On another note, Clark has completely "blocked" with crystals several times. He was on Rx Hill's c/d dry food for many years...until the DM was "required". I've been concerned about this all along. He hadn't blocked since he started the c/d, and I do not want to revisit this life threatening situation. The c/d was apparently holding his crystal formation at bay. Should I eventually start a new thread regarding a diabetic with FLUTD, and what food(s) is/are best?

He was insulted & annoyed when I asked if the dose was too high~

Tracy: My former vet hated that I asked questions. Insulted? Maybe. Took up too much of her time? Probably. The last straw was when Clark went in for 4-tooth extractions, a few weeks back, and I couldn't get the vet to come to the phone to tell me if he received his insulin while there, or if I needed to give it. He had missed his usual dose due to the dental surgery. Word has it that some people at her facility claim that I think I am a vet. Apparently, too many questions equates to thinking you're a vet. Go figure. Sorry, now I'm just venting.

BJM: Thanks for the side notes; it's all good stuff. I wonder if you have any thoughts on the diabetic and crystal formation? Also, I have a morbidly obese female (Miss Finale) on Hill's c/d dry, and taking into consideration what you all are saying about dry food, I need to start switching most, if not all, of these "people" to cans. Finale is out of c/d for the first time ever, due to the new vet situation...so now would be a perfect time for change.

Carl: I like anything that starts out with "Deb, you aren't crazy". Also, I would like to "start over" with Clark's dosage (if need be) after seeing his numbers. His 10/13/2011 fructosamine was supposedly "perfect". Is it reasonable to wait until I have data on him?

Finally, please let me know if the following is a good game plan:

1. I will start Marilyn's spreadsheet so you all have something concrete to view. I'll get Clark's spreadsheet started when his meter arrives. Oh, by the way, someone mentioned using one meter for both cats. I'd rather they had their own, firstly, because Clark is FIV+, and it's better safe than sorry. He lives in a pretty large kitchen, and is baby-gated from the others. Secondly, due to their specific data saved in the meter's memory, and the ability to upload it to my computer.

2. I'll begin the transition to wet-food-only for both FD kitty's in the very near future. Clark has been on a steady diet for some time now, and I would like to see his numbers before making changes...unless any of you think this is off base. Marilyn has had so many changes this week, accompanied by diarrhea, that I would like her to settle-in, just a little, before making further changes to her diet.

3. The insulin change will take more research, accompanied by a cost comparison. Again, I don't want to make changes now, without a complete understanding of both of their BG profiles. Wow, I'm only on number three and the anxiety level is amping up. It's time to rest my brain and concentrate on the spreadsheet.

Thank you all for everything. If I have missed something important, feel free to give me a nudge.

Deb

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

Deb,
Nothing "too long" about your detailed responses. I'll try to follow suit!

The vet wanted a urine sample, but Marilyn's bladder felt empty, so she didn't attempt a bladder draw. I don't know if she wanted it to test ketones, but I guess this needs to be on my "To Do" list. On another note, Clark has completely "blocked" with crystals several times. He was on Rx Hill's c/d dry food for many years...until the DM was "required". I've been concerned about this all along. He hadn't blocked since he started the c/d, and I do not want to revisit this life threatening situation. The c/d was apparently holding his crystal formation at bay.

Here is the perfect link for you to read that explains (site is "owned" by an awesome vet who posts here on occasion):
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth
Dr. Lisa is a huge proponent of canned food over dry food. Chances are the blockage was caused mostly by the dry diet, and it will never get better, even when it's a "prescription" dry food. She explains it better than I ever could. Her site is an absolute wealth of information on all things "nutrition" for kitties.

Should I eventually start a new thread regarding a diabetic with FLUTD, and what food(s) is/are best?

Yes, definitely. Things like this question get lost in threads, unfortunately. Specific questions can always catch the right eyes when they are the subject line of a new thread.

Carl: I like anything that starts out with "Deb, you aren't crazy". Also, I would like to "start over" with Clark's dosage (if need be) after seeing his numbers. His 10/13/2011 fructosamine was supposedly "perfect". Is it reasonable to wait until I have data on him?

If his fructosamine was indeed "perfect", he wouldn't be on insulin, so I guess I need a new definition of "perfect" for my dictionary. I'm assuming that means that it was "just right" for the dose they prescribed - in their opinion anyway. But given what else they've "said" about Clark, I'd question their opinion on just about everything. I would hold off on changing his diet, for sure, until you are collecting data on his BG. But I'd say it would be safe for sure to reduce his dose back to 1u now. You're only a few days away from a meter, but if the dose is indeed too high, you risk little by reducing it for the next few days. We have a saying (actually, we have a plethora of sayings!) "It's easy to add more insulin later, but once it's in the kitty, you can't get it back out". A low dose for a few days is a lot safer than one dose that is too high. Once you have a few cycles of test data, then you'll have an idea what the one unit is doing, and you'll know whether you will need to reduce even further once you start on canned instead of dry food too. If his numbers are decent on 1u, and his BG is going to go down from the diet switch as well, you'll be able to reduce even more. If his numbers are high on 1u, you'll know they are going to get better from the food change, and you may avoid an unnecessary dose increase at that time. Make sense?

1. I will start Marilyn's spreadsheet so you all have something concrete to view. I'll get Clark's spreadsheet started when his meter arrives. Oh, by the way, someone mentioned using one meter for both cats. I'd rather they had their own, firstly, because Clark is FIV+, and it's better safe than sorry. He lives in a pretty large kitchen, and is baby-gated from the others. Secondly, due to their specific data saved in the meter's memory, and the ability to upload it to my computer.

Very good and logical reasons to hold off until you get the 2nd meter. I'm with you.

I'll begin the transition to wet-food-only for both FD kitty's in the very near future. Clark has been on a steady diet for some time now, and I would like to see his numbers before making changes...unless any of you think this is off base. Marilyn has had so many changes this week, accompanied by diarrhea, that I would like her to settle-in, just a little, before making further changes to her diet.

See my note above about waiting on the diet change. Also, on Dr. Lisa's site I linked you to, she has a page on "how to transition from dry to wet food" that you can read beforehand.

3. The insulin change will take more research, accompanied by a cost comparison. Again, I don't want to make changes now, without a complete understanding of both of their BG profiles. Wow, I'm only on number three and the anxiety level is amping up. It's time to rest my brain and concentrate on the spreadsheet.

Again, perfectly logical reasons. I will say that you are a lot more "calm" and "reasoned" than most people who arrive here (myself included back in May. It was a month before I even posted my first question!), and I think you've got a terrific outlook on how you are going to learn the steps to this "sugardance".

Last but not least, please check your PMs (private messages). At the top of the page to the left you will see (1 new message) and if you click on that, it'll open up. I'll send one momentarily....

Carl

 

[BJM]

I second reading Dr Lisa's web site for info on urinary crystals and nutrition info. She has info on there about weight management too.

Just a note on the glucose testing: syringes, lancets, and test strips are single use and then you dispose of them according to the laws in your state. The first 2 items dull on 1st use, so re-use is more painful for the cat and is not recommended.

Supplies may be less expensive on-line, especially if you can do a bulk purchase when you buy. We have shopping affiliate links in the header above. Many of us purchase at American Diabetes Wholesale. If you're getting a ReliOn Confirm, the unlabeled equivelant is the Arkray Glucocard 01 and supplies are listed under that at ADW.

 

[Raggie Doll]

Hi there i'm actually new here so can't offer any advice really as i would end up giving horrible advice :lol:

the guys on here are not only nice but so full of information that over here in the UK you just can't get.

My foster diabetic Tilly isn't regulated yet but when she first came to me she was on high carb supermarket food and her BG readings were sky high around 500 and i threw out the :evil: dry food (even though this supposedly prescribed from the vet as 'diabetic' food) and switched her to Botiza wet food she instantly within a day dropped her BG to 2 levels down. So the best advice i have come across so far is stay away from :twisted: carbs.

Tasha

 

[MommaOfMuse]

Deb,

You have already gotten a ton of great infomation from these other fine folks so the only thing I will add for the moment besides my own welcome to the family is on the subject of canned low carb/high protein food.

We are a very large furry family here 13 cats strong with 2 diabetics thrown into that mix. All 13 are eating canned Friskies Pate style catfood, and not only is one of my diebetics in remission now for a year on this diet. My non-diabetics are absolutely stunning from my two year and a half old kittens to my 13 year old diabetic. You can't tell my seniors from my kittens except by size and more mature features, they all have exactly the same energy levels, they all run, jump and leap through the house and chase their toys. They are sleek, muscular, and oh so soft to the touch. Seeing what the change in diet has done for all my cats there will never be another bag of dry food in my house again.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette and The Fur Gang

 

[Raggie Doll]

Deb,

You have already gotten a ton of great infomation from these other fine folks so the only thing I will add for the moment besides my own welcome to the family is on the subject of canned low carb/high protein food.

We are a very large furry family here 13 cats strong with 2 diabetics thrown into that mix. All 13 are eating canned Friskies Pate style catfood, and not only is one of my diebetics in remission now for a year on this diet. My non-diabetics are absolutely stunning from my two year and a half old kittens to my 13 year old diabetic. You can't tell my seniors from my kittens except by size and more mature features, they all have exactly the same energy levels, they all run, jump and leap through the house and chase their toys. They are sleek, muscular, and oh so soft to the touch. Seeing what the change in diet has done for all my cats there will never be another bag of dry food in my house again.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette and The Fur Gang

that is truly awesome, i only wish i could get it over here in the UK we are very limited

 

[Hillary & Maui (GA)]

I had a vet fire me and tell me and my cat to get out of the office and never come back, because I asked one too many questions. I reported that vet to the state board, put it all online and while the vet is still there, I don't and won't recommend that office or vet ever.

You are allowed to ask questions. Remember who is the one paying the bill? The vet? No - he's collecting the money - you are paying the bill, you are entitled to ask questions and keep asking until you get answers that make sense to you.

And if you are taking up too much of the vet's time - well too damn bad! You are paying for their time and expertise and have every right to get answers.

It's only the insecure vets who feel that you are bothering them that to me speaks volumes and shows me that I need to find someone else. Anyone who won't answer my questions or is put out at the time I take is not anyone I want caring for my cats.

Remember this, you are the voice for your animal. You are the one who loves and takes care of him and therefore, you have to be his advocate.

So again, no you aren't crazy.

 

[terri1962]

Deb

I have Lantus I would be willing to donate to you. I am just not sure how it needs to be shipped. If someone here can chime in and let us know. I have a solostar pen mostly full and two pen cartridges. At least it would get you started. I am in Columbus Ohio.
At least you could get them started on the Lantus. There are people here who can help you with dosing. I can not help with that as I was not here long enough.
Just let me know.

Terri

 

[Hillary & Maui (GA)]

Here is a link to instructions on shipping insulin: https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id ... RkLk&pli=1

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Terri,

Oh my gosh! Thank you so much for the offer! I am still trying to gain some footing with all of this. I just started Marilyn's 1st 12-hour curve, using the Humulin N, so any changes are still to come. I haven't even had time to read-up on the different insulins yet. However, I will remember your kind offer, if I switch her to the type you have on-hand. Right now my main concern is getting her SS posted so you all can see numbers...I'm having problems with the SS. I don't even know if I make my entries on-line, or on my desktop, and then upload to google docs. There's a lot going on at once, and a huge learning curve with each aspect! BTW, I am in Chester County, PA.

Thanks again!

Deb

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

Deb,

If you need help with the spreadsheet, send me a private message. (Button in the bottom right hand corner of my post) I would be glad to help.

 

[Sue and Oliver (GA)]

It looks like you are pretty close to Wilmington Delaware? Venita is there. I'll send her a PM and see if she or someone else she knows could contact you.

 

[dian and wheezer]

welcome. just a short note about food.
usually kitties do very well on lo carb all wet foods. if $$ is a problem to put all on wet, you can give a little lower end food, special kitty from walmart. super supper, turkey and giblets and mixed grill. most of the fish is ok too but cannot be given too frequently. this is the cheapest I have found and ,my cats have done just fine on it. I guess next in line would be friskies and 9 lives. fancy feast is beyond my means for sure. hope this helps

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Hi Again,

You all have been absolutely wonderful! A few quick things:

Dr. Lisa is a huge proponent of canned food over dry food. Chances are the blockage was caused mostly by the dry diet, and it will never get better, even when it's a "prescription" dry food. She explains it better than I ever could. Her site is an absolute wealth of information on all things "nutrition" for kitties.

Carl: I promise I'm going to switch to them to cans only...I promise...cross my heart. I will say this though, I had two males who blocked several times each; Clark being one of them. Back in the day, they were outside hunting on a daily basis. Yes, I provided dry food constantly (and cans BID to TID), but you couldn't stop them from taking down anything smaller than a ground hog. So their diet was quite diverse...is that a good way to put it? Anyway, I still found Ethan Meowlan (RIP) half dead on my porch from a blockage...he survived that one to have another, and so on. Post c/d dry, neither kitty blocked again. I've been concerned about this since Clark started the DM in May. From what I can gather, Dr. Lisa thinks canned food alone can correct this, but I couldn't seem to find out if one type of canned food is better than another. But you already agreed this should probably be its' own post. Should I just copy this exchange to another post regarding the diabetic with FLUTD?

Just a note on the glucose testing: syringes, lancets, and test strips are single use and then you dispose of them according to the laws in your state. The first 2 items dull on 1st use, so re-use is more painful for the cat and is not recommended.

As a rule, I always use syringes one time only. I did see somewhere...either on this site, or elswhere...that if need be, you could use a syringe twice. However, I would never subscribe to this pratice, especially with Clark. He is FIV+, and since bacteria can/does grow on a used needle, I would never want to introduce anything his body couldn't fight off...even if it is only Sub-Q. I'm only writing this to you, to clue-in other folks out there that might find this helpful.

BTW, thanks for head's up on the wholesale site. I'll be sure to check it out. You guys are awesome!

All 13 are eating canned Friskies Pate style catfood, and not only is one of my diebetics in remission now for a year on this diet. My non-diabetics are absolutely stunning from my two year and a half old kittens to my 13 year old diabetic

This is good to know. I always have 1 or 2 cases of this food on-hand!

You are allowed to ask questions. Remember who is the one paying the bill?

I understand exactly where you are coming from...but, and this is a BIG but, I was paying "her cost" for everything, for 12 years. Nothing is "free" though; I paid a high price in other respects...anxiety, frustration, among other things (not for mention here). I got sick to my stomache with just the thought of dialing that number every time I had an animal in need. It had to stop. I have my own health issues. Maybe it won't be any better elsewhere; I know the financial cost certainly won't, but something had to give.

If you need help with the spreadsheet, send me a private message. (Button in the bottom right hand corner of my post) I would be glad to help.

Sue, thanks...I'll be with you shortly!

Okay folks, I'm a third of the way through Marilyn's 1st BG curve. My main concern right now, is how to post the darn SS, and it looks like Sue can help me with that! A couple BG's were "off the meter" last night, and she's feeling really bad; she looks/feels like she could use some fluids. Does anyone know if it's okay to admin them while doing her curve? If not, I can wait until tomorrow to give them, I would just prefer she had them now.

Thanks everyone!

Deb

 

[Hillary & Maui (GA)]

Yes of course give her fluids if you think she needs them.

My parents use a vet in Broomall (on West Chester Pike), I don't know how up they are on diabetes management, but the vet seems to be nice. I will get the name if you are interested in exploring this.

While you are working on the ss, you can just list the numbers here and we can take a look.

One thing - instead of listing tested at 2 pm or 3pm, list it as tested +2, +4, etc.

Use the 12 hour clock and the 12 hour is the time you gave the insulin shot, every hour after that is the number of hours after the shot

So, for example if you gave a shot at 7am and tested at 11 am and 3pm, it will look like this:

AMPS (morning pre shot) - BG #
+4 - BG#
+8 - BG#

We do it this way, as we are in different time zones and it makes it easier for everyone to follow and not have to figure out what time it is where you are.

 

[Raggie Doll]

on the syringes front over here we have a container and you put them in it when one has been used once full we can drop them at one of the vets I'm sure there is something like that for you guys x

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Yes of course give her fluids if you think she needs them.

She did, and it's done...thanks.

My parents use a vet in Broomall (on West Chester Pike), I don't know how up they are on diabetes management, but the vet seems to be nice. I will get the name if you are interested in exploring this.

Thanks, but Broomall is in another county. I called a local vet last week when I realized she needed blood labs...so if the new vet hasn't browsed this thread, I guess I'll use her.

While you are working on the ss, you can just list the numbers here and we can take a look.

Here's what I have so far:

11/10: AMPS - 377 / +2 - 226 / PMPS - 446 / +2 - 542 / +5 - 418 / +9 - 459
11/11: AMPS - 428 / PMPS - 597 / +6 - 396
11/12: AMPS - 549 / PMPS - 583 / +1 - 539 / +3 - 378 / +7 - Off the Meter! Took again = 530
11/13: AMPS - 542 / +3 - 575 / PMPS - 470 / +1 - 410 / +2 - 364 / +3 - 300 / +4 - 239 / +5 - 246 / +6 - 404...more to come.

I hope that’s laid out okay. Also, may I ask how it would affect the reading if I hit her vein, as opposed to the capillary? The lancet pen is bulky, and makes it hard to see, but I don't want to go free style just yet.

 

[Hillary & Maui (GA)]

you laid this out perfectly.

how much insulin are you giving?

She's riding high, but that could be because of the dry food and the fact that N doesn't last as long as prozinc, lantus or levimer.

The only problem with hitting the vein is that it takes longer to stop the bleeding. It's the same blood sample so from a BG perspective there is no difference. It's just messier when you hit the vein and it happens to all of us. Maui has black ears, so I was always guessing where I poked her.

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

how much insulin are you giving?

Thanks for your time Hillary.

She's getting 1 unit Humulin N, twice a day. She just started on Tuesday afternoon, so it hasn't been a week yet. I think I read somewhere that there's a settling-in period of 1 to 2 weeks? I also thought I read that blood from a vein could give a higher reading...but I'm glad you think it's fine; otherwise, I wouldn't know what the numbers reflect. Too much reading...little memory.

By the way, I stopped her dry food this morning. Whatever she ate overnight was her last.

My "black ears" start next week when Clark's meter arrives.

 

[Jen & Squeak]

settling with N likely takes max 5 days.....

She's showing a drop, which is good, but she's too high over all and when the insulin starts wearing off it wears off quickly....

You can keep at it for a bit, up the dose and see what happens, but it likely won't change the overall 'action' and the fact that N isn't usually the best insulin for cats. However, as you've said, you do have to watch finances. Its not exactly black and white, is it? Honestly, it won't necessarily hurt to stay with the N, but you do need to get those preshot numbers down.....

Jen

 

[Venita]

Hi Deb,

I live in Wilmington DE. Sue asked me to stop by your thread.

Please let me know if there is anything that a local person with some diabetic cat experience can do to help with Clark and Marilyn. I use a vet in West Chester I can put you in touch with. Dr Rachel Coyer is new to the practice, and I don't know how she is with diabetes (I manage Ennis on my own), but if you like I would be glad to call her and see what her protocols are with someone who wants to be proactive. I suspect they will be top notch; they have been with everything else I've taken to her in the past eight months. (You can always transfer the results of Marilyn's bloodwork to another vet.)

You can send me a private message if you would like a visit or more info about Dr. Coyer at the Chester County Cat Hospital. In fact, they are doing free exams for new clients right now. Coupon.

 

[Hillary & Maui (GA)]

Hi Deb,

For black ears, my secret is to use a flashlight. I have a hand held one that I put in my mouth and use as a spotlight so that I can see what I am doing. It makes it so much easier.

 

[Barn Cats R Us]

Hi All,

Thanks for everything. At this point, I am exhausted...Marilyn's first 12-hour curve is completed. Her SS is updated if anyone would like to take a look. Clark is feeling crappy, so now I'm wondering about ketones; since he experiences rapid breathing during his unresponsive episodes. I purchased Relion Ketone Test Strips (and a ladle), but the "catching kitties urine stream in a ladle" idea, is never going to fly in my situation. Does anyone have any experience with the Precision Xtra meter with ketone testing ability?

Honestly, it won't necessarily hurt to stay with the N, but you do need to get those preshot numbers down.....

Thanks for the settling estimate. The vet said to increase to 2 units Humulin N BID, and do another 12-hr. curve by Thursday. If I still feel this bad, the curve will have to wait until Saturday. I'm still researching the various insulins, but for now, N is better than nothing.

Please let me know if there is anything that a local person with some diabetic cat experience can do to help with Clark and Marilyn. I use a vet in West Chester I can put you in touch with.

Thanks for your offer of help. West Chester is too far of a ride for (sick) kitties; also for a household of 10. I use very local vets that also make house calls. I will, however, take you up on the private message offer!

Hillary: Thanks for the flashlight tip. We'll see how it goes with "Mr. Black Ears" tomorrow, or Wednesday. Can anyone come over and help me bandage my wounds? I'm kidding...I'll bandage them myself!

Deb

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

Deb,
I use a Nova Max meter that tests both glucose and blood ketones. It works great, just like testing for BG, same tiny sample size needed. The downside is the cost of the strips for ketone testing. About $2 each unless you can find them on sale on Ebay or somewhere.
I am sure the meter you mentioned will work just as well, but it's still probably going to cost a lot for the strips.

Carl

 

[Vyktors Mum]

My baby had two bouts of crystals blocking his urninary tract when he was young. After the second bout, on advice from a young vet who was keen and interested enough to research the matter, I stopped feeding him dry food and also changed him to bottled water. We haven't had any problems in that regard since.

In respect of grabbing a urine sample with a spoon midstream. If you haven't I would at least give it a try. I tried for the first time yesterday and was successfull immediately. Vyktor was giving me a bit of a strange what do you think you're doing in my private space look but I got the sample no problem.