Could urinary care food have caused my cats diabetes?

Could urinary care food caused my cats diabetes?

Hello,

My cat was just diagnosed with diabetes via a blood test and urinalysis, with his blood sugar being in the 400 range, and his urine levels were high too.

In September he had a partial urinary blockage and had to go on hills cd stress multicare food. I had also started giving him the royal cane version, and switched completely to that towards the beginning of the year. But anyways in September his sugar levels in the urine were normal when we did the urinalysis for his partial blockage.

He was overweight, and I definitely get that could have been the cause. But he is only 8 years old and the timing of this is just so hard not to feel like a coincidence. He went from having trouble peeing, to peeing and drinking water like crazy. Almost like the food was working too well.

I don’t know what to do. His latest urinalysis showed no bladder crystals. Is it worth taking him off the urinary food for a little bit and retesting his sugar levels before starting insulin? He currently did not have any signs of ketoacidosis from his panels and the vet thinks it is still somewhat early.

I just can’t help but feel in my gut that the food could have caused this. Are there any resources or does anyone else have experience with these two conditions together? Thanks so much.

He does have weight loss, peeing and drinking more, and increased appetite. So he is definitely diabetic right now I don’t doubt that. The weird thing is even with his increased appetite sometimes he will just straight up deny the urine food. Like he knows it’s making him not feel well. That’s why I switched to royal cane and he seems to like it better than hills.

I recently started feeding him grain free wet food, the brand I and love and you. He really likes it, and his appetite in general has increased and he actually eats more of his prescription dry food now than before I started him this wet food.

Thanks very much for any time and help.

 

Our Liberty had a urethral obstruction two years ago and he was put on a “Prescription” urinary food- Hills Urinary cd stress multicare (after the Hills sd Rx food). One of our other kitties had had urinary issues also and he was on Royal Canin (again “prescription”) for years, and our vet suggested having all three males eat the same thing just to be safe. I often questioned the quality of the ingredients in those dry, expensive foods, but the vet assured me it was best for the boys. So Liberty had been on those Rx, extremely high carb dry foods for years. Then he was recently diagnosed with diabetes. I personally feel that the Hills and Royal Canin prescription urinary foods contributed to the diabetes. Maybe just anecdotal, but those foods are so high in carbs. I used to get frustrated talking to the vet about the food and how it seemed contradictory to be feeding a cat with urinary issues dry food, but unfortunately I didn’t trust myself, and I did what the vet told me.

When Liberty was diagnosed, I researched intensely, and immediately switched him to a low carb, high protein canned wet food. I talked to the vet about seeing if the diet change would affect his BG levels before we started insulin, but he said no, diet change wouldn’t make much of a difference. I then decided to take matters into my own hands. The diet change has had a profound affect and rather than the 2 units ProZinc twice a day the vet prescribed, we are at 0.25 units and he is doing great. So I really feel that the high carb dry food was not a good thing. I’m fortunate that Liberty took to the canned food easily. I’m trying to switch the other kitties to all wet, but they were dry food addicts, and it’s been challenging trying to transition them. They don’t get the high carb dry food, but I am trying to transition them using Dr Elseys Clean Protein and Young Again Zero. My goal is for them all to be on wet food.

That was a long reply…I’m no expert, but yes, I think the dry prescription diet for Liberty’s urinary issues contributed to his diabetes.

 

I really appreciate the long reply! So you think it is just the carb and nutritional content of the food that is the problem with these prescriptions? I was more worried about something along the lines of a medication or chemical or something in the food could have caused problems. He was on regular over the counter dry food and tuna before the urine issues and at least according to the urinalysis he was not diabetic then, but we didn’t do blood work.

I will give the urine food credit where he has had no blockage since and the latest urinalysis showed no crystals or stones. But I can’t help but be skeptical that there is just some weird junk in that food making him sick, especially the hills seemed to. Maybe I’m just desperate and grasping at straws, idk, but the timing is definitely odd.

I suppose either way he will be going off of it because my vet is going to try and work on finding a diabetic friendly urine food for my cat. These urine issues add another layer to all this and it is tough.

 

Lots more about urinary issues and a good diet for it on this website of a feline nutritionist vet: https://catinfo.org/feline-urinary-tract-diseases/
Bottom line, a low carb, lower phosphorus diet with plenty of water on it is a good option. One week after my Neko was diagnosed with diabeties, my other cat got urinary issues and vet put him on CD. Neko kept stealing his food which was not good for her. I asked the vet for what both could eat, and the vet said raw diet. Later I read the website I linked and found it didn't have to be raw, low carb canned food also works, but I stuck to raw cause they did so well on it. You absolutely do not need a vet "prescription" food, there are plenty of low carb canned foods for sale.

The CD Multicare foods are all what we call high carb food which is over 15% carbs. Some of the varieties are 28%! And that's just the wet food, dry is even higher.

You could see what a diet change does for a couple weeks, but I'd keep a close eye on ketones. You can get ketone testing sticks like Ketostix and test and home yourself. Tips to catch and test a urine sample Anything above trace is a visit to the vet.

 

Would starting insulin before or at the same time as the diet change make it less likely for the diet change to work, than if I did the diet change alone for a week or two, hypothetically? I will follow my vets advice but am just wondering. (If you know)

 

With Liberty’s diabetes and urinary issues, my goal is a low carb wet food with lower phosphorus and lots of water. It can be tricky to find one to cover both issues. The Fancy Feast Classic Pate (Liberty eats Turkey and giblets) is higher in phosphorus than I would like, but he gets a lot of water and I make sure he is peeing well to keep everything flowing.
There is a lot of good info (and a great food chart) at https://catinfo.org. And the members here on the FDMB have so much experience and are so helpful. I’m new to feline diabetes and I was completely overwhelmed - this group has helped me so much and I am so grateful I found this support. After years of feeding expensive prescription dry food, I am thrilled to have switched to a reasonably priced wet food that seems to be helping.

 

The diet change will help, with or without insulin. However, his insulin needs could be a lot less if on a low carb food. It would be essential for you to be home testing his blood sugars, which we would recommend anyway, so you can catch that he needs less insulin and prevent hypos. The dangers in not starting insulin are if he's ketone prone. Also, the sooner you get him regulated on insulin, the better the changes of remission.

To answer one of your questions above, there are many cases where we don't know what causes diabetes. Being overweight is a risk factor, as is steroids, and pancreatitis and other infections or inflammation. Higher carb food could have pushed into diabetes if he had been prediabetic before hand.

 

Several years ago someone posed a similar question - what were people feeding when their cat was diagnosed. It kind of turned into a survey. Shockingly, Hill's c/d was a top response along with other Hill's products including Science Diet. People had been (mis)led to believe that if a food was sold exclusively by veterinarians it must be better. It's not. In reality it's one of the poorest quality foods made with cheap ingredients and mostly benefits the company (Colgate-Palmolive) and the vets who sell it at a hefty profit. Labeling pet foods "Prescription" and "Veterinary Diets" is an insidious marketing strategy that consumers need to question. Hill's claims that corn, wheat, and other high-carbohydrate plant ingredients are nutritious for cats so their foods tend to contain large amounts of plant ingredients that don’t fit into a obligate carnivores's diet plan. Unfortunately most of us don't have a reason to learn about this until our cats get sick.

 

I have always had a bad feeling about hills and science diet! There is something about that brand, my cat picks up on it for sure.

So let me ask you this (and others) if I could please. I went to the vet today, and we put one of those blood sugar monitor devices on but unfortunately it fell off so tomorrow I am dropping him off for a glucose curve.

He is somewhat young, 8, about 10.5 pounds and otherwise healthy. I think he has a good chance of going into remission but this does scare me that he will get too low blood sugar when that happens. What can I do about this?

I don’t have his dose yet they are going to hopefully have that figured out tomorrow, but we did give him 2 units this morning and he definitely seems more at peace and isn’t chasing me around the house for food or water like he was before. He seems relaxed like he hasn’t been in a while which is nice to see him sleeping soundly and cozy.

the other question is, and I apologize if I missed this it is all a lot to take it, but if my vet finds like a good urinary care/high protein diabetes friendly prescription food, is there a reason I shouldn’t give it to my cat along with grain free wet food? My cat absolutely did have a partial blockage, and I really am not trying to get too comfortable and risk it happening again. I really can not afford to hospitalize and give him a pee catheter and all that. Any more general advice is really welcome!

 

Here's all the info about hypos:

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/jojo-and-bunnys-hypo-tool-box.2354/

Most hypos can be prevented by starting at a very low insulin dose. A dose of 0.5 units twice a day is often suggested. 0.25 units is even an option but likely too overwhelming for a newbie to try to measure accurately with half unit marked insulin syringes.

Testing before giving each insulin shot will also help. If the blood glucose level is too low, generally under 150 mg / dl for newbies, then do not give insulin just to be safe. And always test if the cat seems off in some way or if you feel something is off. Better to check the blood glucose level than to not do it and potentially deal with a hypo later. Some cats may not have any symptoms if their blood glucose levels drop very low.

What insulin did the vet prescribe?

You may want to get a handheld Human blood glucose meter to use as a back up if the Libre meter falls off again.

No, there is no prescription food in the world that will help any cat with urinary issues. There's no magic ingredient in them. The key to preventing urinary issues is to feed canned food (or raw or home cooked). You may want to take a read through this: https://catinfo.org/feline-urinary-tract-diseases/ Any canned food you can afford is good. Prescription canned food is not necessary and way too expensive for the very low quality ingredients.

 

Well I kinda find that hard to believe because that food saved my cat. It’s the only thing we did. He went from just peeing a few drops at a time, sleeping in front of the litter box and trying to pee but failing several times a day, to peeing normally and now having zero crystals in his last urinalysis. It might have been unhealthy for him but I can’t deny that it worked and has been working since his episode. But if it is high carb yeah I will need to find an other option now.

But, I did ask my vet to look more into the fancy feast food classic petè that people keep talking about, and asked him to look into this brand I and love and you that is grain free. In addition to a diabetic friendly urinary food.

The other thing is my cat is picky and likes variety, he gets mad and will hunger strike if he doesn’t get both dry and wet food.


Edit: he prescribed
Insulin Glargine-yfgn. 2 units but that may change after the curve tomorrow. Holding off on his second dose for the curve tomorrow the doctor will give it in the morning and feed him breakfast I am dropping him off before work.

Double edit: I do not plan on having them put the monitor on again unless they do it for free. It has been a while since I wasted $100 that fast lol. So yeah I am coming around to having to do the ear prick thing at home. Really feel for my poor cat, I hope he starts to feel better and figures out that I am doing this all to help him.

 

Hello!
I'm a newbie here but I had a cat with similar issues from age 13 until she passed at 21(rest in peace to my sweet baby Frankie) and D-mannose was our savior.
She got a small amount of the powder in her water daily for the last 8 years of her life and a larger dose any time she began exhibiting even the slightest symptoms. D mannose was a game changer, the (quick!) improvement in her comfort level while urinating after a dose was very obvious.
The last month I've been trying to figure out how safe it would be as a preventative for my current diabetic cat and I've searched out quite a few posts here saying it did not affect their cats glucose negatively and they had the same positive experiences that I did. I was actually planning on making a post about it asking for more opinions, but since I've made two threads in the first two days since I began contributing I was holding off for a while; not sure about the etiquette with that.

My cat Meat was on a half and half diet of the Fancy Feast Pate and the same "I and Love and U" chicken and duck kibble. At one point I needed to travel to take care of a sick relative and Meat was such a good beggar while I was gone she ended up being fed more i❤️u dry food in addition to the wet food and i suspect she wasnt eating much wet at all. She was also getting a few Temptations treats, much to my horror (banned from home after I suspected that they caused Frankie's urinary issues many years ago). She started exhibiting diabetes symptoms about a month after that. She is obese and may have been pre-diabetic and the extra carbs or just stress pushed her over, I really couldn't say.

I chose the i❤️u dry food VERY carefully, just like you, because I knew from having senior cats how bad dry can be in the long run and i wanted to mitigate the damage. It really looks great from the ingredients right? But I believe it is not good for our diabetic babies.

Like yours, my cat Meat is picky. She goes on hunger strikes without her dry food. We successfully transitioned to Dr Elseys which is supposedly zero carb and gives you a good amount of free samples if you email them. She liked it. Same with Young Zero, the only other zero carb dry food that i know of. My end goal is NO dry, or maybe using the zero carb kibble as a high value treat.

You have to be very careful switching over because zero carb dry foods are so dense and can cause stomach upset if you don't transition slowly enough. All my respect to vets, but most vets I've seen don't know much about nutrition. Is it possible the food you were feeding him before was affecting him negatively and that by switching to the vet prescribed food you removed that? Just a thought.
I remember doing a ridiculous amount of research about prescription foods about 10 years ago and being really upset to find out many/most vet prescribed foods are nowhere near as healthy as simple old Fancy Feast classics.

Oh and the ear prick isn't fun but now that I'm here I can honestly say I wish I had started doing it so much sooner. You'll be an old hand at it in no time!

 

Hey thanks for your reply!

I will look more into what you suggested as far as the urinary thing goes. I will have to try and put that on hold though I have been so indulged in this diabetes information, my brain is like scrambled lol.


So after more research I have come to the agreement that at least as far as the dry urinary food goes I should take my cat off of it. I might want to sneak in a small can of prescription wet SO from royal cane or cd from hills, along with low carb high protein food. I am very paranoid and almost traumatized from my cats urinary blockage I do not want that happening again. But I still have more research to do. Ideally a single food that is perfect would be ideal but between going to wet food only, and my worries about another blockage, I think I might try mix and matching wet foods. He does like variety so that might help him get off dry.

I gave him an insulin shot for the first time tonight! As someone who hates needles I will say it took a few beers to work up the courage lol. He did not give a crap! He is such a good boy. I gave him some wet food to eat while I did it. I am feeling more confident about home testing now after doing that. Do I go all the way through the ear for a home test? The ear is so thin. I really have no clue and haven’t bought anything yet to do testing at home but am curious.

his glucose curve went well at the vet and we have figured that 2 units twice a day every 12 hours should be safe in his current diet and he won’t go too low. The plan is to keep him on his prescription dry food as well as his one can of wet a day, and give him the 2 units twice a day; once I have that down and an comfortable (as far as giving shots goes and everything) I will get the home testing figured out. Finally I will change his diet to the all wet low carb and monitor his blood sugar so I don’t give him too much insulin. I want this to be a pretty quick timeline. He is young and his symptoms started recently, I am not necessarily expecting a fast recovery after taking him off the dry food but I need to be prepared and testing him so he doesn’t have a hypoglycemic episode when I do. From what I read it can happen fast.

Now I am going to verify with my vet everything that I have read here and my other sources, but I think this is a good plan. I am feeling so much more confident about everything, as far as the diabetes goes.

 

It might very well be BUT I want to caution you to not have blind trust in that assumption. I hope you learn to home test very soon so you can collect data and verify that the dose is safe.

Unfortunately, diabetes isn’t like a car that’s low on oil — you know, measure and then add and then ignore it for awhile.

First off, the insulin you’ve been prescribed, glargine, is a “depot” type insulin, meaning it it’s cumulative. It takes a few days for the depot to “fill” so oftentimes you won’t see the true effect of a dose until the cat has been on a dose for several days. In very, very loose terms, envision a bucket that has a small hole in the bottom—you pour water slowly into the top and it drains slowly out the bottom. The goal is to keep the bucket full but not overflowing, so you want to find the amount of water you should add twice a day (“insulin dose”) that achieves that. The first few days are spent filling the bucket, then once filled, it’s about maintaining the level. You might get away with adding a little too much water initially (i.e., higher insulin dose) but you can’t assume that’s the correct amount based on one day’s results. And overflowing the bucket (overdosing the cat) can happen seemingly without warning if you’re not monitoring blood glucose (BG) at home. And that can be dangerous.

Also, many cats, whether or not they show it, are stressed in a clinic setting. Stress can increase BG, so basing the insulin dose on numbers taken at a clinic can be misleading and also lead to overdose.

Every cat is different, and given the high carb nature of the current prescription dry food, you might be fine on the 2u dose (btw, I’ve had two cats block, one blocked 5 times, so I feel your pain). But I can tell you truly care and want to do what’s right for your cat, so please take the importance of hometesting to heart (and the sooner the better). In 19 years on the board, I don’t recall many folks who regretted home testing—but I can tell you of many who had serious regret for NOT doing it.

As for giving your first insulin shot, kudos. The learning curve for diabetes can be steep and daunting, but you’ve passed a big milestone. Pat yourself on the back!

As for poking through the ear to get blood…it can happen, but that’s not the goal. You just need to poke along the edge of the ear and get a small drop of blood. The ears have quite a few blood vessels but not a ton of nerve endings, so many cats hardly notice (some cats seem more bothered by you messing with their ears than the poke itself).

 

Thanks, I will get on it sooner than later. I probably should have wrote this down, but I believe his sugar didn’t even go under 300 all day so that feels like there is some wiggle room (I could be wrong it’s been a stressful day and week lol, I will call to clarify). And the vet is aware of the stress thing (cat’s stress, not mine) and accounted for that, and my cat was on gabapentin all day so hopefully that helped it be more accurate.

but yeah I am not so scared of a little poke of the ear, I feel giving a shot was more daunting lol. So if I miss a vein and just poke the skin, it won’t bleed? That is so weird if so lol.

I believe he is around 400 base level maybe mid 400s. But he has only been tested twice. Is there information or graphs on how much insulin to give? Or do I call my vet if the sugar seems off? Not that I am planning on changing my cats dose without talking to a vet, but this would be good to k ow what to look out for.

 

Purina One and Purina Pro Plan have non-prescription urinary tract canned foods. Try to steer clear of fish since it tends to be higher in phosphorus (among other problems with fish foods). We don't recommend feeding fish flavors more than about once a week.

Stick with pate's. The ones "in gravy" or "in sauce" are higher carb.

In the 10+ years I've been here or working in the FDMB Feline Diabetes group on Facebook, I can tell you that I have seen a LOT of cats that ended up diabetic after being fed the "prescription" urinary tract foods. I can also tell you that when people switched their cats to low carb canned or raw food (you can even add extra water to the canned), not one ever had a recurrence of crystals or blockage.

The extra water helps keep the kidneys and bladder flushed out so crystals/stones don't have enough time to form.

Cats were meant to get most of their water from prey and they have a very low thirst drive. A mouse is the perfect food for a cat...and a mouse is about 80% water....just like canned foods.

There's a saying around here..."The solution to pollution is dilution".

 

Those stick-on monitors didn't exist 20 years ago when my first cat was diagnosed so I've never used one. They might be handy for the caregiver but no cat appreciates having something glued to his body and will be determined to remove it. We've had 16 or so diabetics and they learned to come for their ear tests and shots usually within 4-5 days days of adoption. A bit of food is a great incentive and keeps them distracted. I've never restrained a cat to test.

Most cats are stressed at the vet and their sugar can go up 100 pts. or more so a glucose curve done there is not going to be as reliable as one done at home. Basing a dose on that data will likely be too much insulin. Actually 2 units seems a bit much for a starting dose. Friday, the last cat we adopted, was getting 6 units of glargine at the shelter based on a curve every 2 weeks. Daily testing here showed he only needed 1 unit and as he had 5 bad teeth removed this week he might soon be needing even less. Home testing blood sugar really is that important.

The best way to prevent UT problems for all cats is to feed wet food exclusively. More moisture means more urine output which keeps the bladder flushed and healthy so that crystals don't get a chance to become a problem. There is no magic Rx food.

 

Can someone please recommend and or give me a link to what I need to test? I am getting a little overwhelmed. I could go to Walgreens, cvs, target, Walmart, etc. I would really appreciate it.
I only gave my cat 1 unit this morning as I am a little worried about it to. It can’t hurt to put him down to 1 unit twice a day instead of 2 for a few days until I have his testing figured out right?

 

I can't say "I'm a newbie!!" enough here, and I'm sure some more experienced people will chime in, but I agree about the 1 unit dose.

You can get the Relion meter from Walmart, as well as the test stips and the needles for getting your blood drop. I'm not recommending any specific meter because I dont know enough, but this is an example of one on the shelf near me:
ReliOn Premier CLASSIC https://www.walmart.com/ip/552134103

Some meters comes with a lancing device (and a couple needles for it), you can use the device but it makes a noise so kitty may not like that. Just using the needles (on the shelf next to the meters and strips) is what most people here do, and having recently switched to that I agree it's better.

I hope somebody chimes in w better advice soon!!

 

• Blood glucose meter, a Human one is fine. Some Human meters require a fairly large drop of blood which may be difficult to get from a cat even with ear warming. Look for a meter that uses a 0.6 ul or smaller drop of blood. Here's a meter comparison guide: http://main.diabetes.org/dforg/pdfs/2020/2020-cg-blood-glucose-meters.pdf You don't need those meters that do graphing or meal tracking or anything.
  
• Extra test strips to the meter. Some meters include 10 test strips but that's obviously not enough.
• Lancet device and / or lancets. Many meters include a lancet device and 10 lancets. The choice to use a lancet device or not is yours. Some people prefer to use it, others do not. Some lancet devices just don't work very well so feel free to buy a different lancet device and matching lancets or try (carefully) freehanding the lancet.

Other things you need for testing:

• Something to warm the ear with so it's easier to get a drop of blood. Many people use what is called a "rice sock". Take a small cotton sock (baby or toddler size works well but any will do), fill with some uncooked rice. Amount will vary depending on size of sock. For an adult sock, try less than 1/4 cup. For a baby sock, a tablespoon or two. Dried uncooked beans will work too. Knot the sock close. Heat in microwave until just barely comfortably warm enough to hold in your hand. I suggest figuring out how much microwave time to use before you actually start testing. My little DIY rice bag only needs 10 seconds to be warm enough. Wrap the warmed up sock around the edge of the ear. It it's too hot, the cat will flinch and try to move away. Let the sock cool down a little before trying again and use less microwave time next time. Hold sock to ear for 30 seconds or so. Place sock inside the ear (non furry side) and use it as a surface to press the lancet device or lancet firmly against and keep your fingers safe. There are other methods people use for ear warming: warm mug, damp hot washcloth in a baggie, rubbing the ear, etc.
• Tissue to firmly hold on the ear to stop the bleeding (sometimes you get a gusher) and help minimize bruising
  
• Low carb treats to reward the cat with after each test.

Once you have your meter, you can buy the test strips and lancets online where they're usually cheaper than in a store. Amazon is probably most people's go-to place but there are others.

Some lancet devices have adjustable depth settings so start at the lowest setting and move up to see which setting works best for your cat.

Make sure to keep extra batteries for the meter on hand. It's usually a round button type battery.

You don't need to stick to a meter if it doesn't work well for some reason or the test strips and lancets are too costly. Keep it as a back up and use a different meter.

https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/

 

Thanks to both of you. I am going to go to Walgreens in a few hours and try to get it. I think I’ll ask a pharmacist if they could help show me where. Called the vet and asked if I can do 1 unit instead of 2 until I start the at home testing, waiting to hear back but like I said I only gave the 1 unit this morning. I am just very scared of him going low, and I don’t have any honey or anything so I will need to grab some too.

I could use some help with what readings to look for. Like what level would be considered hypo? How would I know if 2 units is too much, and how long would it take of giving him 2 units on a regular basis would it take for the insulin to build up and have a stable level?

 

They tell me that Start Low Go Slow (SLGS) is how lots of people start (me too!), here's a link to the specifics on that, it gives easy to follow numbers and general guidelines, scroll down past "tight regulation" https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/thr...-low-go-slow-slgs-tight-regulation-tr.210110/

I doubt your vet will like the idea of you changing your dose, maybe you could show him those guidelines that you intend to follow as well, to show you are not being cavalier or ignorant. My vet completely tried to dissuade me from even testing at all, but after many conversations back and forth where I questioned why they wanted LESS info, it just came down to "most people aren't willing to do that, so we don't recommend it."
Wah wah wah.
My vet also left me hanging with questions for days.

Random tip: I often google my questions specifically within this site. I type into google "site:felinediabetes.com d mannose" or whatever is the subject of my question. It is SO helpful. This site has been around a long time with a lot of helpful folks contributing, usually answering the same questions we are asking!

 

Hey, I really appreciate your reply again. Man I’ve been like near a panic this whole morning. That link is very helpful I well research that, and I am trying to be better at searching and stuff I have just been so overwhelmed I normally try to avoid asking questions that have already been asked.

 

Sorry to double post but I wanted this to be separate than my last reply. Here are the results of the glucose curve. Just spoke to the vet. They do want me to keep him at 2 units for now, but that wasn’t my vet it was someone else my vet is off today.



Glucose Level (mg/dL)
Fasting level (no breakfast) 440 7:52am
7:54 am fed 1/4 dry food and 1/2 can wet food -ate very well
7:55 given 2 units of glargine
9:04am 404
10:15am 260
12:17pm 382
2:21pm 390
4:18pm 361

So with these results does 2 still seem too high for some of you? Lowest it got down to was 260 that should leave some wiggle room even if he was 100 points lower at home.

To what extent does this medication build up in the system and how much more dramatic are the effects after it is built up in the system vs an initial dose? My cat had only had a single dose of 2 units 24 hours before the curve, so it’s likely it wasn’t built up in his system for it.

 

We'll be able to help you much better if you can get those blood glucose numbers in a spreadsheet (like most of us have linked in our signatures). Details on how to create a spreadsheet and important information for. that signature in this post:
New? How You Can Help Us Help You!

 

It will take a me a bit I am on mobile unfortunately but I will give it a shot thanks.

 

I'd be happy to set one up for you if spreadsheets aren't your idea of a good time. Just click on my name and choose "start conversation" to send me a private message so I can get some details.

If you're in the US, you can't do much better than the Relion Premier from Walmart (it's ONLY sold at Walmart since it's their "store brand"). They're also open all the time so if you run low on test strips at 2am on a Sunday morning, you can get more quickly.

Here's a picture that shows what we recommend getting (wherever you decide to go)

 

You might want to start a new thread as this one is getting long and off the original topic which was whether dry food causes diabetes.

If you feel 1 unit twice a day is a safer dose to start with, then dose that. Having a good relationship with the vet is important. Sometimes you have to agree to disagree with the vet and do what you feel is best for your cat. The vet might not like it but should respect your decision. Some vets just aren't very knowledgeable about managing diabetes so you have educate them a little.

Don't tell the pharmacist that you will be using the meter on a cat. At best, you'll get a funny look. If asked, just say you need a meter for a family member.

 

To bump this and bring the topic back to food, does anyone have any opinions on hills m/d wet food? It seems like it has good protein content, and my vet says won’t have a risk of crystals forming.

The phosphorus content seems good too which I like, it is 170mg per 100kcal. It doesn’t look like it is very carb heavy, at 13% according to that chart in catinfo. The protein is 46% and fat is 41%. Seems like cost is the biggest downside but otherwise a possible good choice?

 

I'm late posting this as I haven't been on the board in awhile.
I want to 2nd that D Mannose is a game changer! My boy was having continuous UTIs he now gets D Mannose mixed in with his wet food & 3 tablespoons of water 2xs a day & he also gets Cosequin(recommended by the good people on here)which I started him on when he started to develop cystitis. He has not had any UTI or trouble peeing since he has been on both of these. He was also diagnosed as diabetic at 8yrs old.

 

@CrazyCat1276
I would suggest setting up your signature and our spreadsheet
Here is a link helping us to help you link. If you noticed, our members have some basic information about their cat's in their signature. This helps us to not pester you by asking the same questions (your cat's name, insulin type, date of diagnosis, etc.) repeatedly. We also have a link to our spreadsheet in our signature. We are very numbers driven. The spreadsheet is a record of your cat's progress. By linking it in your signature, we can follow along and provide feedback should you need the help

I see that Chris & China offered to help you set up your spreadsheet and signature.

I don't know if you want to try these
Hi Tyler was blocked once, had to take him to the ER ,

the mucus plug, was blocked ,I needed to change his food.
He's been in remission since 1-24-21
The food that was suggested by the ER was too high in carbs so I found this and have been feeding this , never raised his BG and knock on wood hadn't been blocked since

Purina Pro Plan Urinary Tract Health Beef & Chicken Entree flavor Pate

Purina Pro Plan Urinary Tract Health Chicken Entree

They are both low carb and low in phosphorus


The Purina Pro Plan Urinary Tract Health is low carb and low phosphorus
Beef and Chicken Entree pate
Carbs are around 4.80
Phosphorus is 1.44 dry matter

They also have Chicken Entree in Gravy which isn't pate it like tiny pieces of chicken like the size of a chicklet piece of gum lol remember them, they are like tiny tiny chunks
Carbs are 4.5
Phosphorus 0.78 dry matter

So he doesn't get bored I give him some Tiki Cat Succulent Chicken in Chicken Consume , they are shreds of chicken
Carbs 0.338
Phosphorus 0.93

Knock on wood hasn't had a problem since Nov 2022


The Chicken Entree
https://www.amazon.com/Purina-Pro-Plan-Urinary-Formula/dp/B003R0LM2U
I have a Pet Smart by me so I just run in there to pick them up
Petco has them too
At least you can buy a few cans and see if she likes it

Here's the Beef & Chicken Entree
https://www.amazon.com/Purina-Pro-Plan-Urinary-Formula/dp/B0170YQ822

My vet said this was a good food to feed Tyler

Testing
Always aim for the sweet spot warm the ears up first, you can put rice in a sock and put it in the microwave, test it on the inside of your wrist to be sure it's not to hot, like you would test a babies bottle. You can fill a pill bottle with warm water and roll it on the ears also.Just keep rubbing the ears with your fingers to warm them up

6. As the ears get used to bleeding and grow more capilares, it gets easier to get the amount of blood you need on the first try. If he won’t stand still, you can get the blood onto a clean finger nail and test from there.
When you do get some blood you can try milking the ear.
Get you finger and gently push up toward the blood , more will appear
You will put the cotton round behind his ear in case you poke your finger, after you are done testing you will fold the cotton round over his ear to stop the bleeding , press gently for about 10 or 20 seconds until it stops
Get 26 or 28 gauge lancets
A lot of us use the lancets to test freehand not thelancing device
I find it better to see where I'm aiming
Look at the lancet under a light and you will see one side is curved upward, that's the side you want to poke with
Here is a video one of our members made testing her kitty
She's using a pet meter that has to be coded ,with ahuman meter you don't have to code it.
So ignore that
I have always used a human meter
VIDEO: How to test your cat's blood sugar

Here is the link for the meter and test strips so you don't have to search for them
Relion Premier Classic Meter at Walmart for 9 dollars
https://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Premier-CLASSIC-Blood-Glucose-Monitoring-System/552134103

The tests strips are 17.88 for 100
https://www.walmart.com/ip/ReliOn-Premier-Blood-Glucose-Test-Strips-100-Count/575088197

If not any human meter will be fine
More Testing and Shooting Tips

 

I got the testing down! I have done it twice now, and both on the first try! I would say the (at least the dry) hills c/d is definitely one of the main culprits. Yesterday morning I was out of wet food so I just gave him dry and his 2 units. About 7-8 hours later I did an ear test and it was 557! Definitely gave me anxiety seeing that lol.

So last night and this morning I only gave him wet food no dry, and his usual 2 units. I think the carbs are around 20-30% or so but not positive I couldn’t find the exact info. Did the same thing today waited about 7-8 hours and he was at 275. Much better, and that’s not really even low carb! I bought a bunch of fancy feast. The flaked tuna, and the flaked tuna and chicken. Both have pretty good phosphorus at 291 and 325. And 5% and 6% carbs, and (I’m pretty sure, please correct me if I’m wrong) are not grain free as my vet said grain free can cause heart problems. I am going to switch him to this, and find other good options like this for variety. I really think he has a good chance of remission, but I have to be very careful. Think I might move him down to 1 unit when I make this switch.

But anyways yes I totally am going to make a spreadsheet and everything if I can’t get him into remission soon. But I want to see how this diet change works. I am finally comfortable with the shots and ear test. It was a big hurdle for me as I am typically kind of afraid of needles lol but I had to get over it for my cat.

 

I will absolutely look into this as well, I appreciate the second opinion!

 

That's actually higher than recommended for phosphorus if your cat has CKD. We try to keep phosphorus under 200mg (or even less).

All the Fancy Feasts are too high in phosphorus for a cat with CKD but it's also important to feed them something they will eat. When my China entered stage 2 CKD, I tried all the foods that are both low carb/low phos but she wouldn't touch them so I ended up going back to the FF but used a phosphorus binder.

The "grain free" thing doesn't pertain to cats, just dogs, but cats shouldn't be eating grain anyway since they are obligate carnivores that only process protein and fat efficiently.

 

My cat has healthy kidneys, I am trying to keep under 300mg for concerns about bladder crystals but his kidneys are all good according to my vet. He is also only 8 not quite what I would call old yet so I’m not too worried about it yet. But I am definitely going to keep researching food, I thought this was a good starting point at least these flakes versions don’t have as much phosphorus as the classic.

 

I just got home from work and did a blood test. He was at 125!!! Thankfully I did not give his insulin yet tonight. I don’t know what to do honestly though. Called the emergency vet they were useless said to give him the 2 units still tonight. No chance!!! Wtf? Idk what to do man. Considering giving him 1 but idk.


Edit: feeding him the low carb fancy feast tonight instead of the 20-30% carb wet food and skipping the insulin shot. Will retest in the morning. Fingers crossed!

 

Hey, how did this turn out?? If anything like this happens again, definitely start a new thread and put a HELP in the title. People will usually try to respond asap for situations like that.

not to harp on it, but you should totally set the spreadsheet up, people usually won't give you customized advice without it because giving wrong advice has such serious consequences, people will only say specific dosing advice for your situation if they are looking at those concrete numbers.

Your meter should have saved the blood readings with dates so it should be not too bad to input all your past tests.

Seems like your OG posit was true, the dry food was probably the thing that pushed him over. You really saved your kitty some grief by learning testing before removing it! Good going!! Even just removing that alone may bring his diabetes into remission, look what happened after 24 hours without it!! I'm interested to see what his readings are now. Too bad your vet didn't seem to know this stuff, because you asked all the right questions.

Sorry the vet said to give him 2 units with that reading. You could start using SLGS as a dosing procedure so you don't need to rely on that vet in low blood sugar situations since he's giving you what I would consider dangerous advice. Sounds like my vet telling me to shoot a full dose on 90. SLGS page has concrete advice for situations like this.

You're doing really great, working so hard for your cat!!! It always feels like as soon as you feel good about one part, there's another to learn, its all high stakes and none of it is comfortable! You're a good cat parent!

 

Hey so yeah his sugar did go back up in the morning so I gave him his usual dosage. And it has been high still since switching him to fancy feast so that is kinda surprising. I am going to put him back on the food he was eating when his sugars went low and see if it happens again. And yeah I definitely will be making a spreadsheet soon here. I talked to my vet regarding dose yesterday he said I did the right thing by skipping, but I could have given him at least 1 unit considering he was high again in the morning. Kinda experimenting with different foods and seeing what does or doesn’t raise his sugar. He is so good about the testing, i think i mind it more than him. He has white fur so if blood gets on it, it is a bit unsightly for someone who hates needles like myself.


And I am glad your dose adjustments you mentioned are going well! That’s great!

 

Im a beginner and i dont know that much, but i think its more complicated than expecting his numbers to be continuously low less than 4 days after taking the dry food away. How high are they getting? Still 500s? Lower than the old curve? Everything takes such a long time to even out and sometimes there are other mechanisms invovled. There are countless threads about people taking dry food away and you can usually see their readings change slowly over the course of weeks with some spikes and dips in between- its not easy to know after such a short time and so little info. It doesn't seem like a bad idea to keep feeding him the other wet food and keep an eye on things, I think you're doing the right thing by experimenting with wet foods

Your vet might be great, but when you called the office in an emergency the office gave you bad info. Doesn't seem like accurate info is available to you there in emergencies? Im sorry if this feels obnoxious or rude to point out.

120 is the same as a glucose reading of a pre diabetic cat. Most people would not advise a beginner to inject at 125 without a lot more info. I copy pasted that part of SLGS:

"Q4.4. My cat's pre-shot level was way below the usual value. Should I give the injection?
A4.4. There's no hard and fast rule, but if you don't have data on how your cat responds to insulin, here are some general guidelines.

• Below 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), don't give insulin.

• Between 150 and 200 (8.3-11.1 mmol/L), you have three options: a.) give nothing; b.) give a token dose (10-25% of the usual dose); c.) feed as usual, test in a couple of hours, and make a decision based on that value.

• Above 200 (11.1 mmol/L) but below the cat's normal pre-shot value, a reduced dose might be wise.

• In all cases, if you are reducing or eliminating insulin, it's wise to check for ketones in the urine"

Is your meter battery full? Sometimes that can give funky readings too, i think my Tru Metrix would read low on 1/5 Battery. (I may be wrong and she was bouncing, though. I don't have enough info to know which one.
It's so great your cat doesn't mind testing!! Mine was ok with it until our first home curve, now she lets me because she loves treats, but you can tell it's not her favorite moment!

 

Yeah I am giving it time to stabilize, but this wet food I gave him seemed to like instantly drop his numbers while the fancy feast brought them back up seemingly. But I know those are just a few data points, but I have tested 3 times after feeding fancy feast and he was high (350-550).

That info you posted is very helpful, thanks so much! And it was not my regular vet who I spoke to that night, I just called the emergency vet by me it’s not my normal clinic.

Gonna give him (and me lol) a break on testing tonight, give him the food that he went low on, and retest in the morning. I’m not expecting his numbers to be any different than this morning.

and he’s, also will investigate if somehow the reading was off or something when he went to 120.

 

I don't think the wet food dropped his numbers as much as the sudden lack of high carb dry food. Lots of research on this in humans and animals.

We don't know EXACTLY why the number dropped regardless, so it's much safer to maintain testing before each shot, especially since he doesnt mind. All you know for sure is that without dry food his numbers have been unpredictable and have dropped too low to shoot a full dose very recently and that is likely to happen again.

Still testing high after eating the FF a few times is normal right after stopping high carb dry food.

A lot of people go through this transition, it would probably be more helpful to you to read the other threads about it, I'm not an expert and haven't actually experienced it, but I think you should test before shooting, especially after recently receiving such a low number and not knowing why.

 

He’s still been testing high before he eats. So idk maybe the low readings were wrong. I tried doing the ear prick without a hot wash cloth first and it was so much better. He was bleeding quite a bit when I would get his ear hot, and it would take so much extra time to warm up the cloth and his ear. Still hate seeing the blood though lol. But yeah, gonna try and do a curve this weekend so I can see how he is responding. My vet said their sugar can raise around the time before they eat so I should try and get better data. He is definitely beheaving better and seems more comfortable and himself. Also isn’t peeing a gizillion times a day anymore! Man that got so old, my apartment had just been disgusting from him it was a never ending battle of cleaning the litter box, sweeping and vacuuming, mopping and cleaning surfaces, etc. Finally have my apartment back.

 

I could not identify with you more about being buried in cleaning while they are sick just to have a barely acceptable level of cleanliness!! Meat floods the litterbox when she is doing poorly and that brings its own set of disgusting problems. It must feel amazing to have a little respite after an intense bout like that.

Yes the heat on the ear helps SO much, it really is a great tool. Meat still loves hers warmed up just to cuddle with. The lentils I filled the baby sock with smell pretty good when they are hot lol

I think you should start a new thread with a basic update and ask about the lower reading, we are approaching the limit of posts per thread and I hate when I'm the only one that responds because I am so limited on my understanding I'm scared I'm giving bad advice or missing obvious things. Way more people will see it on a new thread!

 

Oh no, the heat on the ear was helping my cat too much he would bleed a lot it was awful, I had to stop doing it.


but yeah I suppose can give this thread a rest lol. Not really looking for advice per se at this point more just moral support lol.


And yay for not having a flooded litter box lol!

 

Also here is my cat tax, my boy Gary.

 

Oh my goodness he is such a handsome and distinguished gentleman! It's good to see his little whiskered face.