Coming Out of Remission?

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Robyn and Penny

Robyn and Penny

Member Since 2013
Hi, everybody! My cat, Penny, was dx'ed with diabetes in 9/2013 and after less than 2 months on insulin, went OTJ. She had a dental just after her OTJ trial, as well. I continued to test daily and her numbers have averaged from 60-90. We've had a foster here (in a separate room) since January, as we have not been successful in integrating him into the household. Penny and her sister hate him and I suspect b/c he had been a lone cat till now and wants to be in charge. He's moving back out in (God willing) 2 weeks when my brother moves into his house.

There has been a lot of stress in the house, including my father not being well, and her numbers have been steadily increasing since 4/17, with her highest being just now at 151 (her first reading over 150), about 2 1/2 hours after eating Petite Cuisine appetizers wet, which has no starch, no veggies, fruits, etc in it. She's been on this particular food since her diagnosis, as well as Fancy Feast Classics and a few other low carb wet and Young Again kibble.

Incidentally, we just opened a new bag of Young Again on the same day she started showing markedly higher readings. I called them and they said they adjusted the formula to make it more 'palateable' but per the ingredient list (besides cellulose for fiber) it is still "Zero Carb". I had been unsuccessful in transitioning both of them to an all wet diet (I've spent 2 yrs trying). They also insisted that it's not possible for their 50/22 formula to have been accidentally bagged in the "Zero Carb" packaging.

And, yes, she is off of all Weruva since the formula changes besides the Cats in the Kitchen tins, which per Dr Lisa's list are I believe 1% or 0% carb.

Also, yesterday, about 1h45m after eating YA, she was 86. Today, when I did her first test at her usual time, I got 107, but she hadn't eaten as much kibble this morning as usual. I should add that she's always been prone to diarrhea since I adopted her from the rescue, and even Forti Flora doesn't help her. And this formula change also resulted in some really loose stools the past couple of days, although her stool this morning was a much better consistency.

So, several variables here, but at what point should I take her in to see her vet?

Her SS should still be in my signature but here it is just in case:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... _web#gid=0
 
Hi, there

I agree there is cause for concern. She is popping out of range. Remission is so fragile and if she comes out entirely, getting her back in is tough and less likely. It means aggressive dosing and lots of testing and a lot of luck. Lets try and prevent that though!

I haven't seen a carb reading for these Petite Cuisine appetizers - are they on Dr Lisa lists? If in doubt , don't feed. We can't take any chances here. They may have worked before but maybe they are a little higher carb and her pancreas just can't handle them now.

Also I see the blues started the same day you tried the new formula YA dry.

So I would feed only the FF classics for now. Try and keep her as low carb as possible. feed mini meals through the day and night. Get a timed feeder or do foodsicles. We want to support her pancreas.

Keep measuring a few days and see if she starts to spend most of her time above 120. If she is over that most of the time for more than 3-5 days I would do a then vet trip to rule out infection. Then put her back on insulin and follow the protocol tightly.

Wendy
 
Thanks Wendy! How many mini meals would you suggest? She normally gets 4 wet mini meals and free feeds on the kibble and I agree I need to get her off this kibble ASAP to see if it is that. It's just too much of a coincidence for my liking and after the lip service I got from the one man I spoke with last week, I'm no longer impressed with this company. Knowing their customers may be sensitive to changes and it doesn't even say "new formula" on the packaging, in my opinion, is irresponsible.

She's 14.5lbs right now. Would you say 4 of the small FF cans?
 
The Petite Cuisine are not on her list. It's the appetizers, which are supplemental feeding only. The one is fish broth, tuna, swordfish, guar gum, xanthan gum and carrangenan (I know I spelled that worng! lol) and the other is tuna, egg white, fish broth, guar gum, xanthan gum and carrangean
 
Honestly I would stop the petite cuisine too - My Tiggy fell out of remission due to a food change and i wish I had done more at that time and not taken chances. If in doubt - don't feed. Since we don't know 100% from Dr lisa, I wouldn't feed. at least for now.

I would stop all kibble and free feed the wet if you can otherwise maybe brekkie, lunch, dinner, before bed snack, overnight snack?

Required calories per day = [13.6 X ideal weight in lbs] + 70 = 267 calories. One can is 90 calories or so, so 3 cans a day?


Wendy
 
Okay, will do. If nothing else, I have to rule out the Young Again before i go stressing her out and spending money I don't have for the vet. If it's the Young Again, shouldn't I see an almost immediate change in her numbers?
 
Okay...thanks! I just found an old ingredient list for YA before the formula change, and the only thing that is different is that 'natural chicken flavor' has moved it's way up on the ingredient list before the cellulose and probiotics, and the addition of potassium citrate for I'm guess prevention of crystals. Do you think it could be that her upset belly due to the formula change could raise her up like that?
 
Could be - we are playing a bit of a guessing game. The upset stomach could cause the higher BG too. Another reason to stop the YA in case its causing that.
 
Here's the other question. We've had a foster here (my bro's cat till his house is done in a few weeks b/c he couldn't take him to the apt he's staying) and my girls decided they hate him. So, we've kept him in his safe room, although he likes to scratch at the door and cry a lot, but we had been locking Penny and her sister up every morning and letting him out for a half hour each day. we started doing this when we were still trying introductions, (back in January) but after we knew they weren't gonna get along, we've been letting him out anyway, and he IS a sprayer. Could her smelling his spray in her territory repeatedly be a factor? Should we discontinue that and see if that helps?

I think we should but my mom is fighting me on this...
 
I have three Feliway plug ins throughout the house (rancher). One where their kibble is, one in the living room and one in Andy (foster)'s room
 
I doubt its stress.. But looking more at your SS I wonder if you decreased the dose too fast before stopping insulin.

We usually say do 0.5 a week twice a day, then 0.25 for a week twice a day, then 0.1 a week (unless they drop under 50 in which case dose is dropped immediately). I find if insulin is stopped too fast the remission doesn't last more than a couple of months as the pancreas can't handle the workload and hasn't had enough time to heal properly.

Can I suggest you post on the TR board and see what they think? I am almost thinking you might want to put him back on 0.25 twice a day now and not wait. Problem is that a second remission is tough to achieve, if at all.. And you don't want to waste any time.

The tr board have more experience and may be better able to advise. When you do post, link to this thread so they can review.

Wendy
 
Thanks, Wendy...her numbers were getting so low on one drop of insulin that several members here as well as on the Facebook page and my vet concurred we needed to do an OTJ trial. It did happen awfully quickly but she was way too low to shoot at nights as low as she was going. I thought of that, as well. I have to get new insulin b/c her Lev is over six months old but my mom just noted her civvie sister, Weeny, has been tearing up the new kibble, as well, and normally she's not really into the YA all that much. It's very unlike her to eat as much kibble as she's been eating this past week. I'm really wondering if, despite what they said, they gave me the wrong formula, but I haven't seen anybody else who has had a problem. At least on Facebook.
 
Hello Penny,
I would take away the petite cuisine for now since it's unknown. Go with the "known" foods for now.

Also don't discount the possibility that teeth are an issue again. Some cats teeth can decline in a year.... even though you just had a cleaning. Mine has done that.


Keep testing...
and observing....

stress... new medical conditions... teeth... infections and even arthritis can increase bg.
Mine is in remission and she had a bout of higher numbers and it turned out to be pain causing the increased bg.
 
Rhiannon...She saw the vet today and besides a little inflammation by one tooth, he noted no problems with her gums and she had a little piece of tarter that came off while he was checking her teeth. I thought of pain. She was limping on her one front paw last week, but that was really short lived. I do believe it is stress b/c it's been since her confrontation with the foster that her numbers have not gone below 77 and have been steadily going up. And I'm not quite sure my bro is taking his cat back, but hopeful. He's having trouble getting permits for the house he's supposed to move into by mid-May. Please cross your fingers b/c it could take a while to re-home him, especially since I suspect he needs to be the only cat or at least the cat in charge.

Wendy, I use Relion Confirm. I brought it with me today to the vet. She was stressed at the vet and tested 148 on their Alpha Track and 102 on my Relion. This was also an hour after she picked on some Young Again kibble. Later this afternoon, about 4 hours after her visit, she tested 112 on my Relion.

I think the fact that she tested lower at the vet today than at home (124 AM and 112 at 4pm) is indicative that it's most definitely stress.

And I just replaced all their Feliway plug ins today, as well...
 
I haven't read all of the replies carefully, but a vet told me there are three things that will bring a cat out of remission: Food change, stress, or inflammation

You seem to have a bit of all three. But, your numbers still aren't that bad. A longer-term diabetic won't necessarily get as nice and low (and green) again as a healthy cat. My cat's "normal" is slightly higher now than it used to be four years ago. Plus, any literature I can find says normal for felines is up to around 144 (not sure where the lower ranges written here originally came from). So the values you're getting are around what my cat was last time he went OTJ and I wouldn't get too worried. I also don't think you reduced his insulin too suddenly. But, nothing lasts forever I guess! And yes, this time around, it's inflamed gums again that brought my cat out of remission. So he had another dental - six months after the last one!!
 
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