Clavamox: a rant

Status
Not open for further replies.
granadilla

granadilla

Member Since 2015
Last January my kitty Marshmallow had a UTI. The vet gave her Clavamox (amoxicillin and clavulanic acid). Within a couple of days she got extremely bad diarrhea, stopped eating, and got dehydrated. I took her back to the vet, got fluids, and switched her meds.

Fast forward to this January. I got a sinus infection and my doc gave me Augmentin (amoxicillin and clavulanate). Within a few days, the same thing happened to me. I've spent the past two days home from work, running for the bathroom like it's an Olympic sport. And I'm guzzling Pedialyte because I'm so dehydrated. I called the doc and they changed my meds.

I know some kitties (and beans!) do fine on this stuff but I will add it to my list of "do not give" at the vet office, along with Convenia and Metacam. Now that I've experienced it firsthand myself, I don't want another kitty to have to potentially go through this!

I now conclude this rant.
 
Augmentin is a strong med that will work really well on less common bacteria like bug bites and animal bites. I've had it for bite from stray cat that bit into my knuckle and immediately swelled, a cut from cleaning my aquarium, and last year a bug bite that made the right side of my face go numb. The side effects are awful but it does work on the strange bacteria. Never heard of it being used for sinuses.
 
Sorry to hear what you've been through with the sinus infection and antibiotic, Shane. I hope you feel better soon. :bighug:

Thank you for sharing this experience and telling us about things our kitties can't when they have problems with medications. (Having been prescribed it myself, I feel the same way about mirtazapine as you do about the amoxicillin and clavulanate and I was very upset to see Saoirse have a bad reaction to it as well.)


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
(Having been prescribed it myself, I feel the same way about mirtazapine as you do about the amoxicillin and clavulanate and I was very upset to see Saoirse have a bad reaction to it as well.)


Mogs
.
Click to expand...
Ack! Mirtazapine! That's another one going on my list. Marshmallow had a bad reaction to it too, and it seems like most kitties get spacey and weird on it. I'm going to end up as one of those people that the vet dreads seeing because I'm going to have such a long list of "don't give"! At least I'm not wearing a tin foil hat to avoid alien detection... yet. ;)
 
granadilla said:
Ack! Mirtazapine! That's another one going on my list. Marshmallow had a bad reaction to it too, and it seems like most kitties get spacey and weird on it. I'm going to end up as one of those people that the vet dreads seeing because I'm going to have such a long list of "don't give"! At least I'm not wearing a tin foil hat to avoid alien detection... yet. ;)
Click to expand...
Lol! My new vet kind of cuts his eyes at me when I start with my list of "don't give"s, he doesn't know me well enough yet to say much or realize there will undoubtedly be more coming!

Sorry you've been sick, and the meds made you sicker. Feel better soon! :bighug:
 
granadilla said:
I'm going to end up as one of those people that the vet dreads seeing because I'm going to have such a long list of "don't give"!
Click to expand...
Trust me - I'm already there. I question everything, give lists of what 'we' can and can't do or take and then request things they've never even mentioned. Every. Single. Time. I'm sure they must dread my phone calls because they always start with "what if" or "can we try" or "can I send you this bit of research". No tin foil hat for me just yet either though...just an over-protective cat mom. ;)

I'm sorry you've been sick and I hope you're feeling better really soon. :bighug:
 
Had to bring Lúnasa to the vet today (winter fleas are a big problem over here at the moment because of the mild winter - feel awful because she has never had a flea problem in the nine years I've had her).

Advocate? No.

Stronghold? No.

Convenia? [Expletive deleted]

It wasn't one of our regular vets who saw the Noodler today (they're used to me querying things). I don't think she quite knew what to make of me ... :smuggrin:


Mogs
.
 
We've had the same problem here this winter Mogs. And with one of our housemate's cats being an indoor/outdoor girl, no matter how much we try she still manages to bring them in. And I'm about the same - I will use Advocate (or Advantage as it is here) because it's the one that Regan isn't allergic to. But I'm a straight up "no" on Frontline and Stronghold. One of the vets at our practice is very keen to have us try Stronghold (called Revolution here) and I keep having to tell her I'm not going to use anything that I don't know for sure won't cause Regan's allergies to flare up. To make it worse, the poor thing is also allergic to fleas so if I don't get it right first time, every time with treatment she has a miserable few weeks with either an allergy to the fleas or to the treatment. My favorite one recently was when they reminded me at Regan's annual check up that's she due her rabies booster..."we'll just go and get one for you shall we? Then you won't have to worry about it for another year". And my response was "She's not having the one year one, it's either Purevax 3 year or nothing". The vet looked really quite shocked that I'd argued, but then she isn't one we get to see all that often either. And she hasn't actually had her booster yet because the 3 year one they tried to sell me wasn't the Purevax non-adjuvanted which is the only one I'll even consider giving. I just hope I amuse them sometimes as well as annoying them! :D
 
Augmentin is one brand name for the human med of amoxicillin and clavulanic acid while Clavamox is one brand name for the vet med of amoxicillin and clavulanic acid. They are the same med except for how they are certified. They are known, like most oral antibiotics, for causing GI upset
 
I used to have another one that I'd found years ago, but it was something a student had written as part of a course and the link doesn't work any more. :( I hadn't heard that about tabby cats though - it would certainly explain a lot about our baby Licorice! :D
 
manxcat419 said:
One of the vets at our practice is very keen to have us try Stronghold (called Revolution here) and I keep having to tell her I'm not going to use anything that I don't know for sure won't cause Regan's allergies to flare up. To make it worse, the poor thing is also allergic to fleas so if I don't get it right first time, every time with treatment she has a miserable few weeks with either an allergy to the fleas or to the treatment
Click to expand...
I have used Stronghold / Revolution with success. It's the only thing that finally took care of a nasty flea infestation. I was living in an older apartment building and the downstairs neighbor had a dog that was covered in fleas. Somehow they got upstairs to my indoor-only cats. I treated with Advantage but it didn't help. I bombed the apartment and scrubbed everything, to minimal success. Finally I caved and got Revolution and that cleared everything up instantly. Sometimes these things work, it's just so hard to tell what will work for one individual kitty versus what will cause additional drama and pain. Grrr.
 
I did think about maybe trying it on the ones with no allergies/health issues and continuing with the Advantage on Rosa because it doesn't seem to affect her CKD or diabetic remission and Regan because of her allergies. But then the one who goes outside hasn't ever had a heartworm preventative as far as any of us know - our housemate believes in minimal intervention on any level with his cats and I believe it can be dangerous to use a preventative on a cat that might already be infected. And as she's the one bringing the fleas in to begin with, I don't know that switching for the remaining 2 cats would do much good.
 
Hey guys, I wonder if you could post your "do not give" meds.
We are switching Vets because ours is retiring and I'm not comfortable with the one taking over the practice.
She very sarcastically told us that testing every time wasn't necessary, tried very hard to push "their food",
and that if IttyBit was going to go into remission, he would have already done so, this was 2 weeks after his diagnosis.
So since we will be starting from scratch with a new one, we might as well get started on the right/wrong foot with whoever it ends up being.
 
My definite Do Not Give list. Everything else (so far), I have to consider and weigh and think about. And it depends on the individual cat. Some things that worked for one of my cats didn't work for the other.

Convenia
Metacam
Mirtazapine
Clavamox

Good luck with the new vet.
 
Sure - our main "do not gives" are
Frontline
Revolution (or Stronghold depending on where you live)
Metacam
Convenia
all sulfonamides for Regan (we found out she was severely allergic when she was 4 months old)
pred

If I think of any others, I'll add those too.

Good luck with the new vet, though I have to say I'd be considering switching to a new place if you're already not happy with the one taking over.
 
manxcat419 said:
Good luck with the new vet, though I have to say I'd be considering switching to a new place if you're already not happy with the one taking over.
Click to expand...
Our old Vet is still there, they are transitioning patients to the new one, but without telling you ahead of time.
We will do any follow ups that Buttons (our now toothless civvie) needs with our Vet while she is still there,
but only with our Vet, I'm made that clear already.
For anything else we will be going to a new Vet, but really hoping after this last couple of months that won't be for a very long time.
 
manxcat419 said:
Yes, it's because if they have an allergic reaction to it, it's going to take a couple of weeks for the shot to wear off and the reaction to stop.
Click to expand...
So if they've had a convenia shot before, it's ok or could they get a reaction any time? Both IttyBit and Buttons have had them before.
 
Prednisolone is usually the version given to cats. It is on my list of "it depends on the individual cat." I gave it to Cinnamon on a low-level ongoing basis for skin allergies and she was fine. Marshmallow had it once and got steroid-induced diabetes. :banghead: In the future I'd be really hesitant to give it to a kitty because of Marshmallow's experience but I also know how well it can work for other kitties.
 
Both! :) I think one of the two isn't metabolized as easily by cats anyway and is less preferred for treatment, but I can never remember which of the two. Though unless it was life or death I wouldn't allow any of them to be given either.
 
I'm already very afraid of Prednisolone, but now have the backbone to say NO! One of my babies (GA) could not handle clavamox, so that is a no now too. I've done a lot of reading about Mirtazapine the last couple of days. I had some liquid in the fridge from before (never used) and was thinking if Buttons didn't start eating I might give her some until I read up on it. Pretty sure that's going to be a no.
 
Liz & IttyBit said:
Our old Vet is still there, they are transitioning patients to the new one, but without telling you ahead of time.
Click to expand...
Doesn't it drive you mad when they do that? We had something similar happen - a new vet started with the practice we're at and suddenly Rosa was transferred to him instead of the vet she'd been with up until then. That didn't last long - there were a few mistakes which finished up with me yelling at them that either they transferred her right back or we were taking her somewhere else.
 
manxcat419 said:
suddenly Rosa was transferred to him instead of the vet she'd been with up until then.
Click to expand...
Yup, that's exactly what happened here. It brought the snark out of me when I called to ask something about Buttons' up coming surgery and was told that they would ask Dr."new vet" and get back to me. I made sure they knew that Dr."new vet" was not our doctor and had nothing to do with it.
 
Liz & IttyBit said:
So if they've had a convenia shot before, it's ok or could they get a reaction any time? Both IttyBit and Buttons have had them before.
Click to expand...
Sorry - I only just saw that post. I'm not entirely sure though I'd imagine, like with any allergy, it can happen after the first use of something like that or at any other time. For instance, I used to be able to use Frontline on Regan but, over time, she developed an allergy to it and now it causes blisters on the application site (or it did do a few years ago - I guess the reaction might have lessened with me not using it, but I'm not planning to try it out).
 
Liz & IttyBit said:
Hey guys, I wonder if you could post your "do not give" meds.
Click to expand...
Convenia - Saoirse has been given it before (when I didn't know about the potential problems). I still won't give it to her again because she can't afford any GI upsets. There are other - usually more appropriate - antibiotics and I make it my business to fully and correctly administer the full course. I want what's best for my cat, not 'Conveni-ence'. My civvie, Lúnasa, will not be getting it at all (takes the current antibiotic in her grub without any problem; where's the in-Conveni-ence?)

Metacam - for obvious reasons.

Advocate - Saoirse had adverse reaction and stopped eating (led to a massive pancreatitis flare). Lúnasa was very under the weather after it, too.

Stronghold - It depends. Any cat I've given it to in the past was very off colour afterwards. (Frontline didn't affect them like that.) Would consider using it if Frontline didn't work.

Mirtazapine: Saoirse had a marked adverse reaction to this. I would only ever administer it again in the situation where her life depended on an appetite stimulant and all other treatment options were no longer available to her. Even then I would make sure that it was not co-administered with any meds or supplements I knew to have serotonergic effects, and would only give the smallest crumb necessary to achieve an appetite stimulant effect. (I know from personal experience of taking mirtazapine that, if it does disagree with you, it is a really horrible, horrible drug.)

EDITED TO ADD: Mirtazapine has far more major drug interactions than cyproheptadine. (Use the drug interactions checker at drugs.com for more information.)

Caveat on Caninsulin: Made Saoirse feel really ill and didn't regulate her properly. Would only give it to her again if every other insulin treatment option failed. (Were I ever to have another diabetic cat and UK law required Caninsulin being prescribed first I would gather data as fast as I could to demonstrate it was not suiting my cat in order to secure a prescription for a better cat insulin.)

Caveat on Buprenorphine: The normal dose for her weight made Saoirse way too sedated and because of her liver issues I think it hangs round in her system too long. A specialist vet ignored my input on Saoirse's med sensitivity early last year and insisted on putting her on 1.5 x the dose that had previously been too strong for her. It took only 2 of these larger doses to make Saoirse really sick and it triggered a moderate pancreatitis flare. I was FURIOUS! :mad: And the same vet put a block on Saoirse getting the insulin that she needed for maintenance. Our vets are now under instruction not to consult with external diabetes specialists (... cough ...) about Saoirse's treatment without my express permission (and then it must be to another referral centre).

Please excuse the rant. I get very cross about this stuff.


Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
Liz & IttyBit said:
Oh my...don't they look at the records!
Click to expand...
She didn't need to look at the records. I was sitting in the room with her, giving her highly detailed information about Saoirse's clinical signs while on a normal dose of bupe for her weight and the difference when she was on the smaller dose that agreed with her better. Our own vets also sent her the link to Saoirse's spreadsheets. She refused to give weight to all the information I gave her.

Liz & IttyBit said:
Why in the world would a Vet do something like that! That's inexcusable!!!
Click to expand...
Lots of experience with Caninsulin, very little experience with Lantus, somewhat hostile towards home testing, and sod all appreciation of the scientifically proven FACT that cats can be tightly regulated safely. Her view was that it is completely unsafe to give a cat any insulin if their off-insulin blood glucose levels are below 11.00mmol/L (c. 200 - ALPHATRAK/LAB values) - and preferably a cat should be in numbers OVER the renal threshold before insulin should be prescribed. She had access to Saoirse's spreadsheet which proved beyond all doubt that it was most certainly possible and safe to give her Lantus at preshots of far less than 11mmol/L. In addition, the diabetes 'specialists' at this particular centre had pronounced Saoirse as a "true diabetic with no hope of ever achieving remission" the year before. Four months before Saoirse went into remission. After being very tightly regulated on Lantus for three of those months.

A little while after these events transpired I had a relatively frank discussion about things with our own main vet (who knows full well that I know what I'm at with managing Saoirse's insulin treatment, and who listens). He has a specific interest in feline diabetes, is interested in discussing research (some of the time), and overall is very collaborative and progressive in his treatment style. Within that discussion I eventually told him that, quite frankly, I considered the specialist's approach to diabetes treatment - particularly for cats with comorbid pancreatitis and renal issues - to be completely backward. I also told him how very upset and angry I was that, despite all of the evidence she was presented with and the additional information I provided during the consults, the specialist basically ignored all of it and went with what she wanted to do, not what was right for my cat (ref. the bupe dosing). My own vet said that most guardians don't have anything like the amount of in-depth knowledge of their cats plus detailed records of their clinical signs as I have and that she probably would not have been used to a client providing such reliable information. I appreciated his acknowledgement of how seriously I take Saoirse's care, but it was cold comfort since all that evidence did us frell all good when faced with such an arrogant gatekeeper. Our own vet could not overrule the specialist, and Saoirse suffered for it.

What infuriates me even more about the specialist insisting that Saoirse should not receive insulin was that she also diagnosed Saoirse with early stage II renal insufficiency. Kidney disease is a recognised sequela of diabetes and quite frankly I think it's appalling that she insisted Saoirse be over the renal threshold before insulin could be prescribed again. I do recognise that many guardians of diabetic pets may not be in the position where they can tightly regulate their cats safely and settle for monitoring of urine glucose levels and water intake to reduce the impact of diabetes on their cats' bodies but I AM in the position to do so. Frankly I think it's appalling to apply a 'one size fits all' approach to treating a disease that comes with so many potentially life-limiting complications if it's not well-managed when the animal's guardian is clearly in a position to safely do so much more to optimise the patient's health and therefore greatly enhance the prospects of the patient's longevity and quality of life. The specialist's decision actually increased the potential for diabetes to harm Saoirse's kidneys. Disgraceful. And utterly illogical.



Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
And whatever you do, after my being a member of this community for nearly two years don't ask me about my views on the competence of the veterinary profession as a whole to dispense insulin dosing instructions. :banghead: I'm lucky I still have my cat. (Thank you, Dr Pierson and all at FDMB.)


Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
That's the problem: she didn't.

All of the above happened in March of last year. During the time I was waiting for the vets to finally agree to prescribe insulin for her again Saoirse's clinical signs have got progressively worse. Now Saoirse's pancreatitis markers are much, much worse than at diagnosis (they had been improving) and it looks like she is now well and truly an insulin-dependent diabetic. Her pancreas and liver are both enlarged, her fur is completely rusted again as it was at time of diabetes diagnosis, plus she started shedding again and now her fur isn't growing properly at all. She has less energy, she's not able to jump up to higher surfaces, she has bouts of very low mood, has had a permanent low-grade pancreatitis flare with ebbing and flowing intensification of symptoms plus the attendant lethargy, pain, and poor appetite that go with worsening of flares. Her gastric motility reduced and she started getting problems with constipation. She has had to take more medications to alleviate symptoms and treat complications, which in turn put more strain on her liver and kidneys. A few months ago she started losing muscle mass despite my repeatedly increasing her food allowance. When she hit over 17mmol/L / >300mg/dL (Alphatrak) I finally got the Lantus Rx. Even after that, problems with supply of her normal meds and supplements left her even more constipated and she had a not insignificant pancreatitis flare over Christmas (which was awful for both of us). It is only in the last 3-4 days that she's acting more like herself. (Anti-jinx, anti-jinx.)

All for want of a once-a-day microdose of Lantus.

Even with the diabetes, this time last year (shortly after cessation of her insulin treatment) Saoirse was the picture of health and looked much, much younger than her years. Her body condition was excellent, her coat was black as the ace of spades, thick, glossy and softer than silk. She was playful. She was happy. She was climbing trees ...

The past nine months have gone hard with both of us.



Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for the hug, Liz. Sorely needed. :(

Overall - and partly with 20/20 hindsight - I've had some bad experiences with the veterinary profession (2 resulting in unnecessary fatalities of amazing, beautiful, young girls - and a couple of near misses with my Saoirse.) :(


Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
Mogs, sending you tons of hugs! I know how you feel about the vets.

ETA: Should have said I AGREE with how you feel about the vets!!
 
@Critter Mom, no worries about the frankenthread. This is a thread for ranting!

I know what you mean about having bad experiences with vets. I should have taken Marshmallow to a specialist last January but I let the regular vet talk me out of it and convince me her symptoms back then were just a UTI. I finally took her in August and it turns out she had all kinds of things wrong with her that the regular vets couldn't see (lung disease and possible lymphoma). I don't think taking her in January would have prolonged her life, but it would have possibly made her more comfortable if I'd been treating the right things the right way. And it would have helped me if I'd known more about what I was dealing with. Grrrr.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top