Check out this spreadsheet

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That kind of looks like what I was doing in the beginning. Adjusting dose based on PS and just crossing my fingers. But some of those doses given with the PS #'s and then the #'s that follow are little scary. Okay, so I'd be A LOT scared :? Yes, this is really aggressive but I bet that cat goes OTJ soon.......
 
I sure am glad she stuck with the Prozinc and is seeing good results. It looks like she is having great success with it. There was encouragement in Health recently for her to try a different insulin.

Go Katie!
 
It looks like a sliding scale to me. I've gone back and looked at it twice and I can't really see the aggressive part and I'm usually the conservative one :lol: What am I missing?

A sliding scale worked for Harley and I think Carl said it worked for Bob too.
 
Maybe I'm too much of a newbie still. But shooting 1u into a 169 PS would scare me to death. I'm a little jealous that I can be as aggressive as I want and not get numbers close to this! :YMSIGH:

I was always told to back off if I got #'s like this.... So my approach was always conservative and cautious because I was scared to death of some of the greens like the ones in this SS, but it looks like chasing those greens no matter what paid off for this kitty!

Edited to ask: So if a "sliding scale" for dose is shown to work, why have I always been told by a majority of people here to hold the dose? Would that be just for data purposes? I was okay with a sliding scale but was afraid I was doing something wrong so started holding dose more. I guess I'm confused as to what is right or wrong...unless there is no right or wrong, just opinions? :?:
 
There is no right or wrong, which makes ProZinc harder to work with than the other insulins. It seems to be a Every Cat is Different insulin. We haven't found one approach that works for every cat. I would not encourage a newbie to try a sliding scale, because it is safest to have some idea of how your cat responds to a given dose (data). For years, the standard for PZI was to let the dose "settle". Unfortunately for us, no veterinary group has done long term studies on how best to use ProZinc like they have with Lantus. The ones we have generally urge the standard protocol of picking a dose and holding it.

This approach is certainly working for Katie. I guess the aggressive part for me is the changing of dose so often. But can't argue with success!

I think Robin is working on a sliding scale for Barbara. There would nothing wrong with your trying one too.

Interesting discussion. Hope Joanna weighs in tonight.
 
Very familiar with this case. I was the first person to great her when she joined. Two reasons i remember it... i think she joined the same night of the garland dka nightmare, and her kittie and my only child share the same name!
I've followed her progress and posted in lots of her threads, and the way she's treated is a lot like the way bob and i danced.
at work, will post more later.
carl
 
all4mymarine said:
Maybe I'm too much of a newbie still. But shooting 1u into a 169 PS would scare me to death. I'm a little jealous that I can be as aggressive as I want and not get numbers close to this! :YMSIGH:

I was always told to back off if I got #'s like this.... So my approach was always conservative and cautious because I was scared to death of some of the greens like the ones in this SS, but it looks like chasing those greens no matter what paid off for this kitty!

Edited to ask: So if a "sliding scale" for dose is shown to work, why have I always been told by a majority of people here to hold the dose? Would that be just for data purposes? I was okay with a sliding scale but was afraid I was doing something wrong so started holding dose more. I guess I'm confused as to what is right or wrong...unless there is no right or wrong, just opinions? :?:

There is no right or wrong. But a sliding scale is not for someone brand new, you need plenty of data in your spreadsheet to know what you can shoot into a bg to get the results you want.

In the beginning you are just getting them used to the insulin by holding the dose and finding out where your good dose is, you want to get somewhat regulated frst then you can go to a sliding scale, if you look at her ss she just started that recently.

I've worked up a sliding scale for Barbara that I'll be posting tonight, if you want me to work on one for you too I can.

A sliding scale used to be the norm here in PZI.
 
Ok I know I can be a little slow but I dont understand this spreadsheet.
It doesnt seem like there is a pattern, sheis shooting the same dose into 200's and 300's
Am I missing something...
I mean it appears to be working but what is the pattern?
 
No pattern, Denise. She is shooting a sliding scale. She basically sees the preshot number and shoots it, probably basing her dose on what the dose did at the preshot 12 hours before. Jennifer may come over and speak for herself, but it sort of looks like she gets a 200 at amps and shoots a dose. Then if the pmps is lower, she shoots a little less. If it is higher, she shoots a little more. Generally a sliding scale says if you get this number, shoot this. But Jennifer seems to be basing her dose partly on her preshot 12 hours earlier?

As Robin said, some people have used a model like it and had great success. I think it is not for newbies. And, as far as I can tell, neither the sliding scale or holding a dose works for every cat. But this is definitely working for Jennifer and her kitty.

I told her I would be posting her ss on PZI because I thought it was interesting and I thought it would provide food for thought, and it was working for her. Hope she joins the conversation.
 
[quote="Rob & I've worked up a sliding scale for Barbara that I'll be posting tonight, if you want me to work on one for you too I can.[/quote]

Yipee! Are you home yet? :lol:
 
Sue, I understand what you are saying about the sliding scale now and it would make sense to kind of base it on the previous 12 hours and the dose shot before. I just saw that her SS was started in August so it confused me too that a newbie was basing dose off of previous cycles without much data. But I totally get why. I'd be doing the same thing if I was seeing those kinds of results :-D (it would make me very nervous to not be testing every 2 hours though with low greens like that, I think that's why I was so shocked...but that's just me, I worry a lot lol!)

Robin, I would love that! But if you look at Lucky's SS, I think he's just too unpredictable right now and we're trying to decide if he might have been seeing some chronic rebound by lowering the dose. I'm liking what I'm seeing so far today but I need more data. Unless you see something that would tell you that it would work well for him!

I'm all about doing what works for your cat, too ;-) I don't know if a sliding scale would work for Lucky at this point or not, but I'd be willing to try just about anything to get the same results as Jennifer and Katie :mrgreen:
 
The sliding scale was used by tight regulation people for years and it can be really hard on some cats, rebound is very common. I tried TR with Payne and she is one that cannot keep getting her dose changed with each PS.

I do adjust to an odd PS and with Payne and I can go 1u at a time and she is fine. BUT I need to return to her set dose or we start bouncing, usually not much but enough to worry me with her ketones. Some cats need sameness to thrive and my Payne is one.

I also think it is too complex for newbies because you really need to understand what your kitty does on each dose.

Nancy and Payne
(who hides when I even talk about TR :)
 
I think its awesome they are getting good numbers, and so quickly. It’s funny because I was thinking when I posted over on Kristen’s thread that consistency is what has been working for Asher in recent weeks. I think this is valuable information...but, ECID it seems.
 
so far shakes has responded best to consistency
It seems to work best for him
(but who know maybe I will try)
 
A sliding scale will not work for every cat. You have been working with Shakes a long time, Denise, and you have a good handle on what works for him. Consistency works for many cats. Stick with what works.
 
OK, like I said earlier, I've been watching Jennifer's progress with Katie. She joined the first week of August, and quickly got on board with the whole test, diet change, dosing routine. A few times since then, she's posted various questions in Health, and I've responded, always looking at Katie's SS. What always struck me was how quickly she grasped the sliding scale thing.

When I was new to this, for like a month before I joined the board, my vet had me on a sliding scale. All she was really interested in was Bob's preshot numbers. I rarely got mid-cycle tests in. I had no clue, just went along with her directions. Bob went from 1u BID to 3u BID rather rapidly. At that time, we had a long conversation on the phone and she gave me the guidelines for adjusting his dosage based solely on his pre-shot tests. I don't recall exactly what they were off the top of my head, but they were in whole unit or half unit increments. So it was like "if Bob is over 300, shoot 3, between 200 and 300, shoot 2, below that shoot 1 and if he's under 100, call me asap."
So that's what I did from that point forward. Once Bob got up to 4u BID, I decided to take things into my own hands, and came up with my own scale. I started reducing his overall daily intake, and stepped down instead of up, but again, in whole or half unit increments. I remember many days, more often than not, where he'd have on PS lower significantly that the other, so I started giving him doses based on his PS readings, and they were rarely the same dose AM and PM. Some days it was 2.5 at night, and 1u the next morning, based on the numbers. Amazingly, his numbers rapidly came down day and night, and within 4 or 5 weeks, he went OTJ.

The other thing that impressed me every time I looked at Katie's SS was the amounts of insulin Jennifer was shooting into "low" numbers. Again, it reminded me so much of how I treated Bob. ECID, but it almost seemed like Bob and Katie were twins. I regularly shot Bob 1 or 2 units into Blues, I even shot him a couple times when he was "green". I didn't realize it was "wrong", and I'd seen him not flinch from those in the past. The lowest number I ever got was a 44 but while I might have been a bit concerned, and kept watching him closely, I didn't reach for the caro syrup, and he never displayed anything "hypo" indicative. So, when I saw that kind of dosing being done with Jennifer and Katie, it always impressed me, because it seemed to work well, and because she seemed to have a really good feel for what she could and couldn't do with a dose.

Sidebar - about a month and a half ago, I was reading a thread by Mel (momma of muse) and Lori (and tom), where they were talking about dosing and stuff, and they swapped posts using the term "BOS". It was the first time I'd seen it used, so naturally like a newbie I posted "excuse me, I'm not familiar with the lingo - what does BOS mean?" Well, after they got done giggling (I'm sure they were), one of them tactfully explain it this way: "Part of the male anatomy, Of Steel...lol" and the other added "that rythyms with 'falls' cause sometimes you need them when shooting low numbers!".

OK, whenever I saw the dosing with Katie, my first thought was "Wow, Jennifer must have BOS". She shot a 1.5 into a 190, and a 1.0 into a 160. I just counted 17 times where she shot something into a blue pre-shot. She never got into the high doses like I did, but she had a lot of confidence it looks like, with shooting blues knowing that Katie wouldn't go too low. And even when she saw those high pink and red numbers, she didn't go crazy and adjust too much higher. Really good instincts, and a good bit of BOS.

I hope she does come over and wants to talk about how/why she did what she did, because there may be other kitties who can benefit from it. There's also one thing that seems to be a recurring problem with Katie, and that is diarrhea. I know it happened recently, and I can remember a couple other times over the weeks where she's posted that Katie is having a problem with loose stools. I think she's taken Katie to the vet about it, but so far they haven't figured it out. No parasites, according to her latest posts, but I was thinking it might be some sort of lingering infection somewhere along the digestive tract, and I hope she is able to find out what it is and can get it fixed. Katie appears to be ready to go "you-know-where", and it would stink if an infection or some other condition were to set her back.

Carl
 
Sorry about not posting earlier; I had work all day yesterday, and then I went right to bed after taking care of Katie.
To be honest, the sliding scale was kind of an accident. I was noticing that her BG would sometimes go up during a fixed dose, so I started adjusting based on what earlier numbers had said. I wouldn't necessarily go with the number 12 hours previous, but I would look at all my notes, to see what effects different doses had had on her numbers. I first noticed that 1.25 U was getting to be too much, which was when the sliding dose started, but she'd get into the 400s, and that was when I'd give her the higher dose. Then I'd have to give her a lower dose 12 hours later, thinking "I'll keep her at this dose for a few days, to see how she does." Except that just wasn't the case. She'd always give me numbers I wasn't expecting, so I'd shoot a different dose than planned. Which was how we got to today, with no insulin given this morning. We're so close, I just know it! So, it was less my decision to do the sliding scale, and more hers. As far as medical stuff is concerned, I seem to be the exception to every rule, and it appears Katie is the same.
It made me nervous at first, and a bit exasperated, to shoot different doses all the time, because it was different from what I was reading, so I thought maybe I was doing something wrong. But it's working for her, so I'm not going to knock it. It just really seems to demonstrate the "every cat is different" rule^^
The BOS statement really made me laugh. I haven't ever thought of it that way; it's just more of really wanting to get Katie better (she has become way more playful and affectionate as of late). But I guess I could have BOS, especially from some of the noobies perspectives. XD

As far as the diarrhea is concerned, she hasn't had anymore since I started putting the Forti-flora back on her evening food. The really bad smell started once I switched from dry food to wet, so I think it must be food corrolated. But aside from that, we haven't had any problems. She hasn't even had a hairball since I switched her to wet food. Is this common?
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
No pattern, Denise. She is shooting a sliding scale. She basically sees the preshot number and shoots it, probably basing her dose on what the dose did at the preshot 12 hours before. Jennifer may come over and speak for herself, but it sort of looks like she gets a 200 at amps and shoots a dose. Then if the pmps is lower, she shoots a little less. If it is higher, she shoots a little more. Generally a sliding scale says if you get this number, shoot this. But Jennifer seems to be basing her dose partly on her preshot 12 hours earlier?

As Robin said, some people have used a model like it and had great success. I think it is not for newbies. And, as far as I can tell, neither the sliding scale or holding a dose works for every cat. But this is definitely working for Jennifer and her kitty.

I told her I would be posting her ss on PZI because I thought it was interesting and I thought it would provide food for thought, and it was working for her. Hope she joins the conversation.


Even a sliding scale isn't carved in stone and you are dancing a little faster using it.

What I did was look at my PS and what dose I shot on a similar #, factor in the nadir (do I want a lower nadir) and increase or decrease the dose depending on how I wanted the cycle to go compared to the last similar cycle. You also factor in your last cycle, was this PS considerably lower or higher than the previous PS and adjust that into it too.

You keep adjusting your dose and seeing how it works until you zero in on a good dose and then start pushing the numbers down.
 
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