Charlie's BG's are VERY high!

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Charlie's Mom123

Member Since 2017
Hi all! I have a diabetic cat who will be 14 in April. He was diagnosed in October, 2016. The first number was 28.6 so we started him on insulin right away. We began with 1 unit 2x a day. Numbers were still very high. Upped him to 2 units 2x a day and the numbers were still very high. I did a glucose curve at the numbers were all within 21.8 to 26.9. Upped him to 3 units 2x per day. I am still getting numbers in the mid to high 20's (or I guess 450 for those in the US). He easily switched from dry food to wet food. He eats Whiskas wet food. I have another cat who is also diabetic but with a food change (she is also on Whiskas wet food) she is fine and has numbers in the 5's (90).
He seems to be feeling alright and at times even plays and runs around but he's not the same overall. He lost a considerable amount of weight almost overnight which prompted the initial vet check and he hasn't seemed to gained any back.

I'll be checking in with his vet tomorrow to see what she thinks we should do but any advice would be so helpful! I hate seeing him so sluggish and sick. :(
 
Hello and welcome to you and sweet Charlie. That's a lot of work with two diabetic cats. I'm glad you are home testing - that's the best way to keep our fur babies safe.

You've been increasing the dose by rather large amounts. Typically we'll increase by 0.25 or 0.5 units at a time, so we don't bypass a good dose. Any chance you could enter your test data in a spreadsheet. We are all used to looking at that and it's a great tool for helping help you with dosing suggestion. Here are the instructions for that spreadsheet. If you have problems, let us know. We have people who are whizzes at setting them up.

Which Whiskas food are you feeding Charlie? Not all of the wet food is low carb. If you are in North America, this document lists a lot of the commercially available foods and their carb amounts. You want something under 10%, which is what we consider to be low carb.

Once you get Charlie in better numbers, he wil start to feel better. Take a read of the Sticky Notes at the top of this forum and keep asking questions. We love to help here.
 
Hi and welcome to Lantus & Levemir Land, the nicest place you never wanted to be.

We would love to help you get Charlie's BGs down, so I hope you will post again and let us know how it's going. If you can set up the spreadsheet, as Wendy mentioned, it will help us help you. You will also find it to be a very useful tool in figuring out what's going on with Charlie's levels.

I hope you will read the stickies at the top of the L&L page, as there is a TON of info there - so much that it can be overwhelming. Please ask lots of questions. We were all new once, so we don't mind answering.

Can you let us know a little bit more about you and Charlie? Where do you live (we like to at least know the time zone)? What does Charlie weigh now? What is his ideal weight, if you know it. What kind of meter are you using?

That's enough for now, but we'll probably ask you some more questions as we get to know you and Charlie better.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Hello and welcome to you and sweet Charlie. That's a lot of work with two diabetic cats. I'm glad you are home testing - that's the best way to keep our fur babies safe.

You've been increasing the dose by rather large amounts. Typically we'll increase by 0.25 or 0.5 units at a time, so we don't bypass a good dose. Any chance you could enter your test data in a spreadsheet. We are all used to looking at that and it's a great tool for helping help you with dosing suggestion. Here are the instructions for that spreadsheet. If you have problems, let us know. We have people who are whizzes at setting them up.

Which Whiskas food are you feeding Charlie? Not all of the wet food is low carb. If you are in North America, this document lists a lot of the commercially available foods and their carb amounts. You want something under 10%, which is what we consider to be low carb.

Once you get Charlie in better numbers, he wil start to feel better. Take a read of the Sticky Notes at the top of this forum and keep asking questions. We love to help here.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much! I will definitely look into the spreadsheet! He is on Pate, mostly chicken or beef. I don't feed him or his diabetic sister, Ally, anything with gravy in it. When Ally was diagnosed her sugars were at about 19 but her vet and I decided to see if a food change would help. And it did! She's 15 and as squirelly as ever (she has quite the attitude!).

I'm learning so much here already!
 
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey said:
Hi and welcome to Lantus & Levemir Land, the nicest place you never wanted to be.

We would love to help you get Charlie's BGs down, so I hope you will post again and let us know how it's going. If you can set up the spreadsheet, as Wendy mentioned, it will help us help you. You will also find it to be a very useful tool in figuring out what's going on with Charlie's levels.

I hope you will read the stickies at the top of the L&L page, as there is a TON of info there - so much that it can be overwhelming. Please ask lots of questions. We were all new once, so we don't mind answering.

Can you let us know a little bit more about you and Charlie? Where do you live (we like to at least know the time zone)? What does Charlie weigh now? What is his ideal weight, if you know it. What kind of meter are you using?

That's enough for now, but we'll probably ask you some more questions as we get to know you and Charlie better.
Click to expand...

I'm in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada. He's about 11lbs which is down 4 pounds from when he saw the vet in October. It is quite a drastic weight change although the vet is less concerned about it as he was a VERY large kitty previously and now with low carb food the weight loss was bound to happen.

I'm using an Accu-Check meter. I use it for both my kitty's.

I assumed that since he's never had a sugar of less than 20, that he needed a larger dose. I'll have to check with my vet to see what she says. Every night before we go to bed I promise Charlie that I will find the right dose and that he will feel better. I feel like I'm failing him. Sometimes he's gets his 'spark' back but his sugars are still over 20. He's a tough little man but I want things to get easier for him. :(
 
I have inputted the info for when I did Charlie's curve. I did his sugars every 2 hours for 12 hours. How often should I be testing his levels on a typical day? I haven't been saving them but I will now.
 
Hi Charlie's mom :bighug: We're sad that you have to be here, but we're glad you're here in the right place! There are countless lovely people here who are veterans at managing feline diabetes. They're a GODSEND! Reading the stickies is the best bet... a LOT of information, but please always ask questions!!! I also tend to study other people's spreadsheets, just to get an idea of what to expect, but also, we have a saying ECID (every cat is different). You'll probably have to decide whether you want to do TR (Tight Regulation) or SLGS (Start Low, Go Slow) in managing your kitty's numbers. That way we can figure out when to increase doses, and when kitty "earns" reductions. :bighug:

You might also want to update your signature on when your kitty was diagnosed, what insulin he's on, and the type of food he regularly eats.

Also on your spreadsheet, you're using the color coding for US numbers, so it looks like your kitty is in the "greens" when in reality he's I believe somewhere in the reds (I forget the actual conversion)

(Sorry throwing a lot at you!) Just whenever you get the time~

As for testing, you're doing a great job!!! I didn't even test that regularly unless his numbers are either really low, or I saw some jump or change! And we understand that the costs of those test strips can really add up in time. Pretty soon, you might be able to predict where kitty's numbers are going. :bighug:

And remember... you are NOT failing him. You're a wonderful bean for taking the extra care for your kitty's specific needs. If you look at Fluffy's spreadsheet... you can tell I probably lost a lot of hope. But on Christmas Day, that's when he began to adjust and "get used to" lower numbers!!! And from there on, it was like magic for the most part. But it's not easy doing the sugar dance. Just so you know, we at FDMB are always here to support you. :bighug:
 
For some reason your numbers are showing the world values in the US chart and many of use the US ones. I think if you enter your numbers on the world chart when we click on the US one we will see them but not sure. @Wendy&Neko am I right?

Welcome. You will get lots of help here regulating Charlie here. At minimum you want a AMPS,PMPS, +2-3 or out the door if leaving for work and a mid cycle test whenever possible. Once you see patterns you might add or eliminate some of the tests. I too suggest you read the info on the stickies as they are a wealth of information.
 
Nat & Fluffy said:
Hi Charlie's mom :bighug: We're sad that you have to be here, but we're glad you're here in the right place! There are countless lovely people here who are veterans at managing feline diabetes. They're a GODSEND! Reading the stickies is the best bet... a LOT of information, but please always ask questions!!! I also tend to study other people's spreadsheets, just to get an idea of what to expect, but also, we have a saying ECID (every cat is different). You'll probably have to decide whether you want to do TR (Tight Regulation) or SLGS (Start Low, Go Slow) in managing your kitty's numbers. That way we can figure out when to increase doses, and when kitty "earns" reductions. :bighug:

You might also want to update your signature on when your kitty was diagnosed, what insulin he's on, and the type of food he regularly eats.

Also on your spreadsheet, you're using the color coding for US numbers, so it looks like your kitty is in the "greens" when in reality he's I believe somewhere in the reds (I forget the actual conversion)

(Sorry throwing a lot at you!) Just whenever you get the time~

As for testing, you're doing a great job!!! I didn't even test that regularly unless his numbers are either really low, or I saw some jump or change! And we understand that the costs of those test strips can really add up in time. Pretty soon, you might be able to predict where kitty's numbers are going. :bighug:

And remember... you are NOT failing him. You're a wonderful bean for taking the extra care for your kitty's specific needs. If you look at Fluffy's spreadsheet... you can tell I probably lost a lot of hope. But on Christmas Day, that's when he began to adjust and "get used to" lower numbers!!! And from there on, it was like magic for the most part. But it's not easy doing the sugar dance. Just so you know, we at FDMB are always here to support you. :bighug:
Click to expand...
Nat & Fluffy said:
Hi Charlie's mom :bighug: We're sad that you have to be here, but we're glad you're here in the right place! There are countless lovely people here who are veterans at managing feline diabetes. They're a GODSEND! Reading the stickies is the best bet... a LOT of information, but please always ask questions!!! I also tend to study other people's spreadsheets, just to get an idea of what to expect, but also, we have a saying ECID (every cat is different). You'll probably have to decide whether you want to do TR (Tight Regulation) or SLGS (Start Low, Go Slow) in managing your kitty's numbers. That way we can figure out when to increase doses, and when kitty "earns" reductions. :bighug:

You might also want to update your signature on when your kitty was diagnosed, what insulin he's on, and the type of food he regularly eats.

Also on your spreadsheet, you're using the color coding for US numbers, so it looks like your kitty is in the "greens" when in reality he's I believe somewhere in the reds (I forget the actual conversion)

(Sorry throwing a lot at you!) Just whenever you get the time~

As for testing, you're doing a great job!!! I didn't even test that regularly unless his numbers are either really low, or I saw some jump or change! And we understand that the costs of those test strips can really add up in time. Pretty soon, you might be able to predict where kitty's numbers are going. :bighug:

And remember... you are NOT failing him. You're a wonderful bean for taking the extra care for your kitty's specific needs. If you look at Fluffy's spreadsheet... you can tell I probably lost a lot of hope. But on Christmas Day, that's when he began to adjust and "get used to" lower numbers!!! And from there on, it was like magic for the most part. But it's not easy doing the sugar dance. Just so you know, we at FDMB are always here to support you. :bighug:
Click to expand...
Okay, I think I changed the spreadsheet now. Makes much more sense that it highlights the colours so I don't have to look at each number all the time. I also updated my signature. Thank you!
 
tiffmaxee said:
For some reason your numbers are showing the world values in the US chart and many of use the US ones. I think if you enter your numbers on the world chart when we click on the US one we will see them but not sure. @Wendy&Neko am I right?

Welcome. You will get lots of help here regulating Charlie here. At minimum you want a AMPS,PMPS, +2-3 or out the door if leaving for work and a mid cycle test whenever possible. Once you see patterns you might add or eliminate some of the tests. I too suggest you read the info on the stickies as they are a wealth of information.
Click to expand...

Thank you! I changed my spreadsheet so it should be working now.
 
The spreadsheet looks great now, good job. :) I'm from the coast in B.C. - waving "Hi" over the Rockies. You've got a great vet school there. The majority of people here speak "US" mg/dl for blood sugars, you'll get used to it quick enough. Basically you multiple your numbers by 18. Or look a the spreadsheet that does the conversions for you.

Are you testing every morning and night before you give Charlie his insulin? It's very important to do so in order to keep him safe. Every time you do a test, just pop that number in the spreadsheet and it'll help those of us experienced with reading spreadsheet get an idea of what is happening with Charlie and what to do about the dose.

By the way, the blood sugar at diagnosis or even what he is doing now isn't indicative of how high a dose they'll eventually need. We've got cats here who go over 400 (32) on .25 units dose or 30 units dose. The latter one is a kitty with a high dose condition. The former just needs a really small amount of insulin. As Nat said, ECID, every cat really is different in their insulin needs. We figure out the dose of Lantus to give based on how low it takes the kitty. So in addition to those before shot tests for safety, we like to get some mid cycle tests so see how low kitty is going. Again, all cats differ, but that low is typically somewhere from 4 to 7 hours after the shot for Lantus.
 
Yes! And please don't get discouraged. Kitty might hover in those high numbers for a very long time but eventually all that stuff you read about on the depot, and when "the liver stops panicking" and releasing that extra glucose, your kitty should adjust~ Do you test for ketones? It's always good to be pre-cautious when kitty stays in those high numbers for long. You can get them very cheap, like at walmart. I use Relion Diastix!
 
Nice job getting the SS sorted out, and your signature, too. If you look at the signature blocks for others, you'll see we put lots of info in them. That is because these are the questions people will keep asking you, so it saves you from repeating yourself. It would help if you put your meter type, your location, and your first name (if you want to - we can keep calling you Charlie's Mom if you're more comfy with that). Also, if Charlie is on any medications or has any other conditions, it's good to list them there. It helps those trying to help you to know these things.

Some other helpful links:
Lantus & Levemir Land Slang Dictionary (we have our own language here)
Where Can I Find _______? (short cuts to lots of informative posts)

As Gill mentioned, most meters have a memory. If you can play around with your meter (or read the manual ;)), you might find that it has all your tests saved in it - usually with the date and time taken.

Hang in there. Things will get better.
 
Just got off the phone with Charlie's vet. She has upped the insulin to 4 units for one week. At that point I need to do another 12 hour curve and let her know. I will also be taking Charlie in for complete bloodwork early next month to ensure there is no underlying conditions. I really like and trust this vet. She has been amazing!
 
I agree, that is a large and possibly unsafe increase. With the numbers I've seen (and that isn't many), I think a 0.5 unit increase would be the maximum. Have you managed to get any more blood tests done at home other than this morning? It's possible he's going low at some point and doing what we call bouncing. Bouncing is a normal reaction to lower numbers that can cause temporarily high numbers.

Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles).

This is important because we figure out how to dose Lantus based on how LOW it takes the kitty. Which means ignoring the temporary high numbers and focussing on those low numbers that caused them.

I hope you are staying warm. Sounds cold in your part of the country.
 
Thanks! I think that she increased it by 1 unit because he hasn't had ANY numbers under 20 (360) since he was diagnosed. I hadn't been keeping track of when I took his blood sugars, which is why I don't have many numbers in his spreadsheet. I had been testing him about 5 times per day.

It's getting warmer here bit by bit! Thank goodness, I was getting tired of the -50C wind chill!
 
If you can get your test numbers out of the glucometer and onto the spreadsheet for the last two weeks (which it usually stores), that would really help us help you.
 
It'll be easier for you if you just put the numbers from your glucometer on the World mmol/L tab. The spreadsheet will then do the conversion for you to the US mg/dl tab. Charlie's numbers do seem to be getting worse, the higher you go in dose. Too high a dose can look like too little and produce high numbers. I suspect that 4 units is too high. I highly recommend getting some more mid cycle tests, and if at all possible, a test before you go to bed every night. Many (seems like most) cats go lower at night. We figure out how to change the Lantus dose based on how low it takes the kitty so we want to try to catch if he's going lower.
 
I just multiply all the numbers by 18 and that works fine for me. I reduced dose back to 3U as of today and I'll see what the numbers show. I've been testing between 3 and 5 times per day but my glucometer didn't save very many numbers. I'm not sure why. All of his numbers, besides 1 or 2, are in the 20's (360+) and have been that way since diagnosis.
 
Do you have syringes with 1/2 unit markings? Just wondering why the changes in whole unit amounts.
 
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