Charlie's +4 is 336

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EllieKozak

Member Since 2014
Hi guys. Just came home from work for the day and checked him. His +6 is 421 which is discouraging Bc he even had a dose increase. He is starting to readily eat the LC again so I'm hoping that will reduce the numbers. Since Friday he would only eat dry fancy feast so I think he's feeling a bit better despite the high numbers. Should I give more r now? I'm home for the rest if the day so I am able to monitor constantly. Will try to get ketone test in too ASAP.
 
Re: Charlie amps 388, increased to 5L 2.5R +6 421!

Ellie, I would give Charlie another 2u of R. What he is probably experiencing is New Dose Wonkiness. Sometimes when you raise the Lantus dose, the BG goes up because the depot is filling up. It is SO frustrating. Some cats adjust to the new dose right away. Some always have NDW.
 
Re: Charlie amps 388, increased to 5L 2.5R +6 421!

FYI...I did send Ellie the following message over private message this morning (I didn't intend to give dosing advice over PM, but realize now that I read it back that I did. Sorry!) -- posting now for everyone to see...

Suzanne & Cobb said:
Hi Ellie!

I know you are so frustrated right now. I've been there. I completely understand! It feels like nothing you are doing is working, so why even try? Am I right?

We spent MONTHS with Cobb above 500 with no explanation as to why. We just kept going up and up and up on insulin. We originally started on Prozinc but the vet had us keep Cobb on dry food. Big mistake. I know it definitely contributed to glucose toxicity. We were discussing having Cobb PTS when I found FDMB. This was my last ditch effort to save him, and we've come a LONG way. This is a busy, but exciting, week for us. Not exactly sure what is going on, but Cobb's insulin needs seem to be dropping - pretty much from out of nowhere.

One thing I added to our toolbox earlier this year was R insulin. R is a different kind of beast because each cat reacts to it so differently. Some cats it takes a drop or two and their BG plummets. Some cats it takes several units. I think Black Kitty (sandy and black kitty) got up to 7u of R at one point. He is an extreme case of insulin resistance, but I know Sandy was shooting R around the clock to try and get his numbers down. Cobb hasn't gone that high in his R usage, but we've used about half of that at some points. At one point I was shooting R 3x a day -- 2, sometimes 3 units. Now I'm shooting none.

The one thing about the R that always frustrated me is that I couldn't always see that it was working. I know yesterday you said you didn't think the R had made that big of a difference. That may or may not be true. It's possible it wasn't enough R to make a difference. It's also possible that the dose you gave him held him where he was, instead of allowing the BG to get higher. Every time I saw that I'd give R and the BG didn't move, people told me it probably just held it steady, instead of rising.

You will want to develop a "R scale" for Charlie. It sounds harder than it is. But, at some point, you'll be able to see how Charlie reacts to the bigger Lantus dose and more R combined. That scale may changes frequently or infrequently, depending on Charlie's response to it. My R scale must have gotten deleted from my spreadsheet tabs, but here's what it looks like: (BG numbers are on a human meter)

250-275: 2.5uR
275-300: 2.75uR (sometimes 3uR, depending on what the day before looked like)
300-325: 3uR
325+: 3.5uR

Sometimes I will shoot R when Cobb is below 250. Not often. But sometimes. It depends on how the day before me shooting goes. Since he's been doing better, I try to let him clear the higher numbers on his own without any intervention from me. Charlie isn't there yet though. We need to get his body to recognize and realize that normal numbers are, well...normal! :lol:

I would up the R dose from 2u though. Since it's shot on a sliding scale, you'll want to let the numbers guide you. So if he's at 308 (on the AT), I'd try 2.5u. If he is still above 300 at +6, shoot another 2uR. If he's above, say, 400...try 3uR. You'll have to let the numbers guide you -- and be around to test his response to a higher dose. You don't want him dropping more than 40-50 points an hour from the R. Otherwise you can set up a bounce, and then you'll shoot more R to counteract the bounce, and get caught in a vicious cycle of R, bounce, R, bounce, etc...

Ellie asked if that is the scale she should use for Charlie. I'm responding to that question here...

I wouldn't go by Cobb's R scale. No. Each cat really has to have their own R scale. Every cat reacts differently to R. Each cat can react differently to the same dose of R, depending on what is going on with them that day. Sometimes 2.5u was perfect for Cobb, sometimes it looked like it did absolutely nothing. I'm sure you can find my frustrated ramblings on here from those particular days! :lol:

If Charlie were my cat, and I was around to monitor and test, I would give at least 2.5u if he were over 300. You can see on 9/14 the PM cycle, he went "low" during the day cycle, and then was above 350 for his PMPS (probably bouncing). You gave him 2.25uR at PMPS, which brought him down a little bit. A little bit more might have killed the bounce and you wouldn't have seen those 400+ numbers the next morning. It might have been flat, but that would be the R not letting the BG climb, versus pulling it down. If Charlie is over 400, I would definitely give more than 2.5uR. But you must be around to test to see how he reacts to a higher R dosage. You don't want him falling too fast or too far. Again, you don't want to set up that R, bounce, R, bounce scenario. So if Charlie is over 350, I might try 3uR (over 400, maybe 3.5uR) and see how he does with that. You may find 2.5u is great over 300. You may find it is too little. I think with the NDW that Charlie is experiencing today, you might have given 3uR at AMPS to counteract the NDW. Whatever you give, you MUST be armed with HC in case the R really kicks in and he goes low. I know he is very high, but R can be powerful and if you get a dose he really responds to, he could drop like a rock. Does all of that make sense??

~Suzanne
 
Re: Charlie amps 388, increased to 5L 2.5R +6 421!

Crystal clear Suzanne! It's a good day to curl up on the couch with my fave kitty. We will do that right now. Question tho. You mentioned that he could drop quickly. If that happens but it's not low enough to worry about hypo, say it drops from 400 to 250 in an hour as an example. What would Be the treatment for that? Would I feed hc in that case?
 
Re: Charlie amps 388, increased to 5L 2.5R +6 421!

Also wanted to mention that I have every bit of lab work reports etc here with me if anyone would like info on any specific numbers etc. I will have hubby hook up scanner tonight so I can just scan everything and link it to his ss somehow
 
Re: Charlie amps 388, increased to 5L 2.5R +6 421!

EllieKozak said:
Crystal clear Suzanne! It's a good day to curl up on the couch with my fave kitty. We will do that right now. Question tho. You mentioned that he could drop quickly. If that happens but it's not low enough to worry about hypo, say it drops from 400 to 250 in an hour as an example. What would Be the treatment for that? Would I feed hc in that case?

Yes, you would want to feed in that case because you would want to stop the drop. HC? Maybe not really HC. That's where you would have to play around with the carb content and see which helps him level off versus start to climb. If he drops 150 in an hour, that's a clear sign the R dose is too high. Dropping that fast could set up a bounce. That R, bounce, R scenario I mentioned. You can get caught in that cycle and it can be hard to get out of it.

I have found (and I think others would agree), it's a big game of trial and error. See what works. If it works, keep at it. If it doesn't, don't do it again. :smile:
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Hello. Charlie's pmps is 374. Normally is give the r right now too. Is it safe to give since he had at +7? He's back to eating the LC food as well. Acting great today. Will still do sub q fluids just to be proactive. Please advise ASAP please Bc he is due for his shot in the next 10 min or so and I don't want to miss a window of opportunity. Thanks as always
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

If you're doing subq I would skip the R. I believe the fluids can lower BG (someone correct me if I'm wrong) and he came down a good amount for PMPS.
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Thanks for the fast reply Suzanne. Ok so I'm going to skip the r and just give the 5 lantus right now. I'll give the fluids in a few hours so not to interfere with the insulin (i give insulin in his scruff Bc he's so thin there's not many options and the fluids are given lower on his back). Will get a bg at +2 and update then but will check back here in case other replies are posted. Thanks!
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Just remember the Lantus onsets around +3.

I just don't want the BG to spiral down. Fluids, increased Lantus dose, possible NDW adjusting...I wouldn't want to add R in there and see a BG plumme!!!! But...if others think differently, please chime in, as we have bden fortunate to never have experienced ketones.
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

honestly, i think the previous R has worn off. He's back up a little bit from his lowest after the last R.

Because he's not moving too much with the R, if you're willing to wait til +3 with the subq's, i think you could safely give another shot of R now. I think i'd just give 2u R to be on the conservative side.

If you don't see this by +1, then i'd go ahead and skip it.
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

part of the reason i think it's ok to go ahead is because he doesn't seem to have too much of a response to insulin in general. He probably has some sort of resistance going on, ellie. these are good-sized doses of insulin and they don't move him much.

the other part of the reason is because of the threat of ketones in him. in weighing out the risks, i think that risk is greater than the risk of him going low or dropping too fast. Suzanne's right about not wanting to set up an R bounce problem, but that threat of ketones is what's making me think it's a good idea to go ahead. otherwise, i'd go with waiting to see as well.

let's hope i'm right. Would you get a +2 for him?
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

i just edited my post to say, suzanne, that you are right about the concern about the R bounce. If Charlie didn't have such a strong recent history of ketones, i'd go with your plan. i just worry about him having these high numbers and that concern is a little stronger in me than the concern about him dropping.

but your logic is absolutely sound. :-D
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Will see get a +2 Julie. Hubby is setting up the scanner now so hopefully I can get his lab reports up tonight
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Yep! I understand. I have no experience with ketones whatsoever, so I didn't know if that risk outweighed the others. I know we want to get those numbers down as quickly as possible, but didn't know if the R bounce cycle could pose a ketone worry too.

I'm still learning on that front!
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Ellie,

scanning the labs is fine if you want. some people do that and put it as a link in their signature lines.

another option is to add a tab on the spreadsheet for labs. if you want to do that, take a look at what i did with punkin's. i copied the first couple of columns from someone else (you can copy from me if you want) because all the lab tests are basically the same. the thing you want to double-check is the reference ranges - different labs have different reference ranges for normal.

one advantage to adding a tab is that you can add subsequent tests in the next colunn and can compare changes over time. if you copy someone's initial columns, it doesn't take too much time to add in the values. take a look at punkin's and you'll see what i mean. i put numbers out of the normal range in red so i could monitor them easily.
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

His +2 is 326! Nice steady drop but not too extreme. Good, right? :)
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

That's a good drop, yes! See how it may take a bit more R to move the needle on his BG?
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Julie, your spreadsheet is amazing. It's like a diary. I must also say I was brought to tears reading the last few entries of Punkins journey. I'm so sorry :(
I am in the process of scanning his labs. I will then update Charlie's diary to reflect the abnormalities etc. Thank you for the suggestion :)
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Should I still do fluids tonight? I will be up for a while still and don't mind waiting a bit.
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

i would continue with the regular subqs, yes, until he is in better numbers and the ketones are way back in the rear-view mirror.

i still miss my little punkin. that's the understatement of the century. the bond you get with a diabetic cat is unlike with any other pet. it's like losing a child - i haven't lost one, but that's what it feels like to me.

if you edit the subject line of the first post for today's thread, you could put his BGs in there and people can see at a glance how he's doing.
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Charlie's +4 is 336. About to give sub q fluids now. He's really lovable tonight. :)
 
Re: Charlie pmps 374. Had 3 u r at +7. Give again now?

Hi there :cool:

You were in good hands today, Suzanne has mastered the 'go with the flow' of using fast acting R on top of slow acting L with her kitty.
Well Done!

BTW - what's the latest on the ketone front?
 
Sandy today his ketones are trace. Fingers crossed that were pulling thru this crisis once again wouldn't have been possible from everyone's help on here! :)
 
Trace is an improvement over Moderate.
Please note todays trace ketones on the ss

Keep pushing - you have one serious BG beat down on your hands -
and one serious bunch of crazy cat people watching your back :cool:
 
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