Changing to lantus when already on a tiny dose

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Amanda

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Still considering the lantus- Kazi seems to be doing quite well on the Vetsulin but all the bad press makes me nailbite_smile a bit. What worries me about switching is that Kazi is only getting 1 drop of insulin 2x a day. I currently will not shoot at anything under 200 because her dose drops her approx 100-125pts or so.

Her pancreas also appears to be doing a little of the work on its own- have had days with no insulin where she dropped her BG 20pts on a few occasions, and others where she has kept it down for a bit on her own. On 5/6 for example her AMPS were 161- No dose. PMPS were 181- No dose. She rose to 193 at +26 and was back down to 175 at + 36. At +40 she was at 223 so insulin was given.

I know its common practice to drop your dose when you switch insulin and then work your way back up. Not really sure how to do that with such a microscopic dose! The conversion from U-40 to U-100 combined with the tiny dose makes me VERY nervous to switch her...which in all honesty is probably a big part of why I haven't done it yet!

I am not currently thrilled with her numbers after our few weeks of being in the blue AMPS and PMPS 95% of the time...but also feel like she is heading back in that direction again after a rough few weeks. Seems like maybe she wants to go OTJ and with all the hype about the lantus I wonder if that is the small push she needs to do it. Any thoughts on this? I have been going round and round!
 
Just looking over your SS quickly a few things come to mind......

Of course I would recommend Lantus for anyone, and I'm pretty sure Kazi would be OTJ very quickly. That's why I am hesitant to say oh yes you must switch, A package of Lantus is expensive and when you end up purchasing 15ml (1500 units) of insulin and only using 5 units of it it seems a little silly. Of course if money is not a big concern or you can get a smaller amount of insulin to start with (either by splitting and order with someone, or check the supply closet for anyone with left over Lantus) If you do purchase a package of pens/cartrideges and have leftover unopened ones you could sell them or donate them here in the board. So yes I would recommend the change if that's what you want to do, ifnot I think it might be possible to get there by tightening up the numbers a bit with your Vetsulin (assuming you have a bottle that is still useable and don't need to purchase any)

All things considered Lantus and Vetsulin are quite different and while we often do suggest that people reduce the dose for the first few days when making a switch in most cases that is because the person is giving what could be to high of a dose, or they made the increases to fast or to big at a time, or they have just begun hometesting and we don't have any information about what the dose of the other insulin was doing. many have also just joined the board and are making a food change at the same time (to lower carb) which can reduce insulin needs. In general the change can be made while keeping approximatly the same dose and while Lantus lasts much longer (longer duration=has a BG lowering effect for 12-16 hours, Vetsulin usually last only 6-8 hours) Lantus is also less potent in it's ability to lower BG suddenly (it works slower and milder) it also has less risk of causing a hypoglycemic episode and allows us to obtain lower BG levels ( in the range of a non-diabetic cat) for many hours with much less risk than attempting this with Vetsulin.

Here is the reason: The manufacturer of Vetsulin writes: Achieving effective glycemic control
The goals of managing diabetes mellitus include:

* Controlling the clinical signs of hyperglycemia (polyuria, polydipsia, and ketonuria)
* Avoiding hypoglycemia (blood glucose <50 mg/dL)
* Obtaining blood glucose curve values in the desired range:*
o Cats: 120−350 mg/dL over the course of the day, with a nadir between
120−180 mg/dL


Keep in mind that the normal non-diabetic BG range for cats is between 50-120 mg/dl (typically less 100 mg/dl) when using a human calibrated glucose meter and organ damage from high blood glucose could be occuring at numbers above 150 mg/dl. For that reason cats treated with Vetsulin should never be below 120 mg/dl accoding the manufactuer (for safety reasons because of the risk of hypoglycemia) which means that almost no healing can occur and organ damage will continue. Although these recommendations are somewhat erring on the side of overly cautious (and assume owners are not regularly home testing and dosages are based on curves done by the vet which may be elevated due to stress) it is possible to obtain tighter BG control with careful monitoring but in general there is often not enough contol possible to allow for adequate healing of the pancreas.

Lantus works longer and genteler and allows tighter control of BG without a serious risk of hypoglycemia when BG is carefully monitored by the caretaker. A cat on Lantus will able to maintain a BG almost consistantly under 200 mg/dl and with a nadir between 50-120 mg/dl for several hours each cycle will have BG values near that of a non diabetic cat thus promoting healing of the pancreas and preventing possible organ damage from higher BG levels.

The trick to using Lantus is being able to give the correct dose consistantly every 12 hours to maintain this lower BG level. The action of Lantus produces a "curve" unlike that of Vetsulin in that it is almost peakless, so the "curve" is more of a flat line in lower ranges. If you open some spreadsheets of Lantus/Levemir kitties here on the forum you will see what this looks like. Your SS shows what is typical of Vetsulin (especially with a cat on lower doses who is close to remission) as the overall numbers become lower you are often in a situation where a preshot (which is to high to be considered normal) is to low to be able to safely adminster insulin so you have to skip a dose or give a much reduced dose which in turn means the cat goes 12 hours with no (or to little) insulin and the BG just continues to rise for 12 hours essentially undoing all the progress that was made in the previous days. It is litterally like riding a rollercoaster.

Based on the preshots you have had over the last few weeks and the nadir (which on Lantus would be allowed to be lower) I would actually consider a starting dose of 0.25U. As far as the difference between the U-100 insulin and the U-40 (Vetsulin) there is no need to convert anything. You will need to use the correct syringes with Lantus (syringes for U-100 insulin) we use a .3ml (3/10 cc) syringe with half unit markings. You will see that they are different from the U-40 syringes used with Vetsulin (they are thinner and smaller) dosing a U-100 insulin in small amounts is somewhat more difficult than a U-40 but with these syringes and perhaps a magnifying glass it can be done pretty consistantly.

At the top of the forum in the "stickys" there is lot's of information about using Lantus (storage, handeling, testing, pictures of syringes and dosing guidelines) read all of this and ask any questions you come up with here. This is the most important stuff about Lantus. Once you have decided to give it a try then we will be happy to help you along the way.

If you are not convinced Lantus is the way to go after reading and getting advice here, then there are some people who can help you to "tweak" the Vetsulin a little and give it a little more time to try and get into remission (it is possible on Vetsulin) but it is going to be frustrating (more so than lantus) and require serious monitoring and a bit of your time.

The last point...Your spreadsheet mentions refusing some foods and eating some dry food.... :o this is going to be a big factor in going OTJ and a crucial one in terms of maintaining a remission. What foods are you feeding? Are you familiar with the appropriate diabetic diet (Janet & Binky's food lists)? Are you working to eliminate the dry food completely from the house? If you need help or suggestions on how to convert "ktty crack addicts" :-D I have lot's of experience, and we can give you some links to information on how best to accomplish this.
 
Hi and welcome to FDMB :mrgreen:
Just a couple of things to add to Monique's post (think she's covered most of it! :-D )

Have you continued to use the same vial of Vetsulin since March? Can't see a comment saying you've started a new vial? Vetsulin isn't really any good after 28 days of opening-another reason why you can get higher numbers.

The fact that manufacturer recommending kitties are transitioned to alternative insulins, I would look at something like Lantus or Lev. As you look like your so close, the idea of buying a single vial off someone is probably a good one.

If you can completely get rid of the dry, that may tip the balance in favour of OTJ.

tHE SWAP FROM U40 TO U100 is no different as Monique has explained-must have the right syringes.
If you do swap would suggest you do when you can be around for some spotchecking as you do look like your close on numbers. Lantus and Lev build up a shed, but often you do get an initial immediate response-hence the need for hometesting.
Monique has lnked Janets charts for you.

Good luck and keep posting away-lots of advice and support here :mrgreen:
 
Your SS shows what is typical of Vetsulin (especially with a cat on lower doses who is close to remission) as the overall numbers become lower you are often in a situation where a preshot (which is to high to be considered normal) is to low to be able to safely adminster insulin so you have to skip a dose or give a much reduced dose which in turn means the cat goes 12 hours with no (or to little) insulin and the BG just continues to rise for 12 hours essentially undoing all the progress that was made in the previous days. It is litterally like riding a rollercoaster.

Yes, exactly! I think that is what caused us to go from numbers under 200 AMPS and PMPS to the 200's we've been experiencing. Too many no shoot numbers.

I've been here on FDMB since her diagnosis in March- within 2 weeks we were off the dry food and on one 'approved' by Janet & Binky's chart. Roughly a week ago Kazi went off her food- started eating less, next day refused breakfast- I tried 6 or 7 different flavors/brands trying to get her to eat that night. She finally ate 1/2 a can of a new flavor, same the next morning. That night someone accidently leaft a door open when they fed our other 2 cats. I went looking for Kazi to feed her and found her chowing down w/them, she refused to eat any wet so I let her finish up the dry so that she could at least have some insulin/food. The next morning she was back to the canned and eating well again and has been eating normally since!

She HAS been on the same vial of Vetsulin since DX- however I asked the vet about the expiration date for it as I had read lantus was 28 days. She told me the vetsulin is fine for months on end- usually up to a year? I think I am going to try and find someone with a vial here....but is it safe to ship with the warm weather?
 
Amanda:

You may want to ask your question about the Vetsulin on the Health board. There are some former, experienced Vetsulin users here but you will probably get a bigger response on Health.
 
Cats can be quite sneaky can't they? If there is a crumb of dry food my guys would find it too!

Generally speaking Caninsulin usually doesn't remain effective after about 1 month after it has been opened. Unopened it should be usable (provided it's stored correctly) until the expiration date printed on the bottle. It may still be useable for a little longer (6-8 weeks) after opening but I think it will begin to become less effective and unpredictable.

Lantus on the hand can be used much longer than the 28 days recommended by the manufacturer. Most people here keep the insulin (even though refridgeration is not required on in-use pens) irefridgerated and are able to use it for several months (even more than 6 months) without experiencing any loss of action. Unopened pens should always be kept refridgerated and are useable until expiration date (which is normally about 2 years from the date manufactured). If you did purchase a package of pens (it contains 5 Solostar pens each has 3ml which is 300 units of insulin making the whole box 1500 units) Prices range amoung pharmacies I have seen it around $125 from many online pharmacies which actually makes it cheaper than Vetsulin in the long run. I don't know how much Vetsulin costs in the US (I did use Caninsulin which is the European name for it) I paid about 8€ per small vial which had 2.5ml (100 units) insulin, I switched to levemir (simular to Lantus) and it costs 55€ for 3 pens (3ml each) which is 900 units of insulin so per 100 units costs about 6€ which makes it 2€ cheaper than the same amount of Caninsulin. Any unopened pens you could later sell or donate here on supply closet (when you don't need them anymore). It is possible to ship the insulin , some people here have experience with doing so. Best is to send it overnight (Fed Ex or something) and pack it carefully with a cold pack. Even if it does get room tempature (as long as it's not really hot) it shouldn't affect the insulin when it's only for a few hours or 1 day.

If your Caninsulin was old then I would expect that it might not be very effective and you either need some fresh or to buy some Lantus anyway. Check out the supply closet here on FDMB and perhaps post that you are looking for 1 pen/cartridge of Lantus (or Levemir would be ok too). Check out some online pharmacies and local pharmacies for prices (you could ask if they would be willing to sell just 1 or 2 pens separatley) probably not but asking doesn't hurt. You will need a prescription from your vet to order online or get it from a pharmacy, be sure you get it for the pens or cartridges not the 10ml (1000 units) in a vial, which would be more wasteful and in the end more expensive.
 
Thank you for the advice! I haven't been able to call Sams Club while the pharmacy is open yet- going to do my best to be able to do that tomorrow. Hoping they'll sell me a single pen but it looks like a fellow board member only lives about 40 minutes from me and has one I can snag if not.

I guess I need to call the vet as well...not really looking forward to that. She seemed to think the vetsulin was the best option and had only ever switched 1 cat to the lantus. Also didn't really agree with the hometesting. :? Needless to say, calling around to find a knowledgable vet for feline diabetes is also on my list, would be nice to have my vet backing up my decisions!
 
Why not print out the articles on home testing and the Lantus dosing protocol and give them to your vet? Several are from veterinary journals. It's kind of hard to argue with research!

I attached the article on home testing. The other materials are in the dosing protocol sticky.
 

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