Cat receiving insulin, still peeing in gallons.

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Rpanak

Member Since 2012
My 10 year old cat has been diagnosed with diabetes about 4 months ago and has been receiving 3cc of insulin everyday, twice every 12 hours. Ever since then, his urination hasn't gotten any better. He still urinates like crazy and not inside his box. Recently he found a new spot to pee; on top of the kitchen counter, and it was A LOT. I looked online as to why he's still peeing in insane amounts and not in the box and was led to believe he had a UTI as well so we took him in and gave him a Convenia antibiotic shot about 8 days ago. Right now, I don't think it's doing the trick; I've heard you don't start seeing the antibiotic kick in until 10 to 14 days, but we are on the last straw. If we can't figure out what is wrong, we may have to put him down which I'm against but there isn't any other way. We barely have the money to take care of his insulin and it saddens me. According to my vet, his glucose has been good 11 hours after an insulin shot and has not increased the dosage. What else could it be?

-Rich
 
Can you supply more information about the diagnosis? What was the blood glucose reading? Was any other blood work done? Was a urine analysis done?
Have you went back to the vent for more blood glucose readings?
I doubt that you are give 3 CC of insulin. That kill kill the cat. I suspect that is is 3 units of insulin, that is 0.03 cc. What type of insulin? 3 units is quit high a starting dose?
What are you feeding your cat? A low-card canned is desired.
Most of us here test our cat's blood sugar twice daily using a human meter.
Where are you locate? Maybe someone is nearby that can help you learn to test your cat's blood sugar (BG) yourself.
 
i assume you are not testing kitty's glucose levels at home? if not the problem is most likely that his diabetes is still out of control. by testing at home you will get a better idea as to how out of control it is, you can work on getting it controlled, and i'd bet that inappropriate peeing will stop. would you consider home testing? it is actually very easy to do once you get the hang of it. and in most cases by doing so you actually save a bunch of money in that you don't have to have curves done at the vet and insulin needs are often reduced so you buy less insulin.

there are of course other possibilities but in the 6 years i've been here if someone is fairly newly diagnosed and still has this problem, it's often unregulated diabetes that's causing it.
 
Sorry, I meant 3 units. He was at 2, but his glucose was a little high when I took him to the vet to check so they upped it to 3. I took him to get his sugar tested a few times and she said to keep going with 3. I don't know the value. Would the Purina Glucotest Detection System work? I can always buy a monitor. We feed him Fancy Feast Dry Food.
 
Vet stress can raise the bg numbers, the vet goes by that, you go home, cat relaxes and bg numbers go down......dose could be too high. Dry food is much higher in carbs also. Hometesting is a lifesaver and will enable you to test your cat at home, do curves, and avoid cost of going to vet for tests. Many people just buy the Relion meter from Walmart......cheap as are test strips. Please learn to hometest first and once you do then transition kitty off the that dry food and feed canned only. Be vigilant with the testing because removing the dry will lower the blood glucose numbers and that dose of 3 units could be way too high....it already is for a newly diagnosed cat. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=287 Also, what insulin is he on?
 
We feed him Fancy Feast Dry Food.
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:o

Well there's a big part of your problem. FF dry foods are around 30-40% carbohydrates - that's like expecting a human diabetic to feel great on a diet of Twinkies, potato chips, and Coke. We feed our cats low carbohydrate CANNED or RAW food here - this makes treating diabetes SO much easier and cheaper as you are not having to inject massive amounts of insulin to counteract the carbs. Plus, wet and raw food is so much healthier for your cat in the long run. Please read the website CatInfo.org for diet and nutrition info - this site was written by a feline vet who is a member on this forum as well. Janet and Binky's lists here have carbohydrate % on some popular canned foods. Pick one you can afford and your cat likes under 7% - the lower the better.

Keep in mind you do NOT want to go changing the diet to low carb without home testing first. Lowering carbs significantly lowers the insulin need and shooting 3u while feeding low carb canned could cause your cat to go hypoglycemic or even die.

What insulin is your cat on? As far as insulins go - we recommend Lantus, Levemir, or PZI. The two L's are human insulins but work great for cats. PZI (Prozinc) is a cat insulin that can sometimes be hard to find.

Home testing - any human glucometer will do. You want to look for one with the cheapest testing strips since that is the most expensive thing about diabetes. Walmart's ReliOn series is good if you're in the USA. AccuChek, Bayer Contour, and OneTouch are all good but more pricy meters. You do NOT want a meter with Tru or True in the name, and you do NOT want the Freestyle lite with butterflies on the strips - these meters are inaccurate on cats.

If I were you, my course of action would be:

1. Make sure you have a recommended insulin. If not, ask your vet for a prescription for one.
2. Change the diet to low carb canned food and start the new insulin at 1u or even 0.5u to be safe.
3. Home test while doing all of this to make sure your cat is safe.
 
Rpanak said:
Sorry, I meant 3 units. He was at 2, but his glucose was a little high when I took him to the vet to check so they upped it to 3. I took him to get his sugar tested a few times and she said to keep going with 3. I don't know the value. Would the Purina Glucotest Detection System work? I can always buy a monitor. We feed him Fancy Feast Dry Food.
Click to expand...

DRY FOOD = uncontrolled diabetic

Now, there are a very many cats who end up needing little or even NO insulin as soon as the dry food is removed and the cats are instead fed low carb wet canned food. Dry food is just horrible for a diabetic cat, so it's likely caused your cat issues.

OK, because you are giving a fairly high dose of insulin compared to most other cats, it would be best if you start home testing FIRST, before changing the food and insulin at all. You want to see what sort of numbers your cat is REALLY getting on this dose (What insulin are you using??) and then you will have to reduce the dose and switch over to wet food.

Pick up one of the meters at the pharmacy, the Relion is a quite good and economical choice, but do NOT get any of the FreeStyle meters or meters with TRUE in the name as they are not reliable at all and give inconsistent and false numbers. There are videos/youtubes that can help you, and most members here can give you all sorts of tips. When you pick up the meter, and test strips and lancets for the meter, you should also pick up a container of KETOSTIX so you can test your cat's urine for ketones.

Here's a site with info on food that you will likely not hear from your vet!
Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition
Many people feed their cats Fancy Feast or Friskies canned food the pate flavors, (no gravies or grilled as they are higher carb).

There is absolutely no reason to take your cat to the vet to test his blood sugar when you can test at home. You may find that his numbers are alot better at home because there is no vet office stress affecting the numbers. One of my cats always tested higher at the vet office and another sometimes tested lower. I took my own meter with me to the vet, and tested my cats there and then again at home after about 30min.... they always returned to their normal numbers once they got home to their own comfy corners and toys.

You don't need to worry about getting your cat regulated .... you will get to that point. It may not be in a day or two, or even in a week or two, but you will get there. It's important for you to keep in mind that your cat did not become diabetic overnite and you started insulin right away, so you just need to give him some time along with a much more appropriate diet.

Please be sure that you are home testing before making any changes because some cats just plummet and are off insulin in days, OK? To keep your cat safe, test first for a few days, then if needed, switch to the wet food and if he takes to it right away, cut his dose in half or thereabouts.

Ask lots of questions; you and your cat will be just fine.
 
Switching to canned food and buying the monitor today. How strict is his diet supposed to be? How many times do we feed him? Our cat is a begger and we'll feed him a piece or two of meat. It's hard not to deny him lol. We give him Prozinc Insulin
 
An uncontrolled diabetic is always hungry till food and insulin come together and start working well. Try the canned FF, stay away from those with gravy, higher carbs, and give him 1 can in the a.m. Always test before feeding so bg number is not affected by food. If he is still hungry, give him another 1/2 can. When I first got Mishka almost 9 years ago she was starved. I would give her one 1/2 cans, wait about 1 1/2 hrs. then give her another 1 1/2 can's. She slowly backed off on amount she needed. As long as food is given before insulin peaks it is okay. Any food given after peak will just drive numbers up because insulin is no longer working hard and is wearing out. Hometesting is going to give you the info you need.

Also, please read the link written by a vet that has been on FDMB for quite a few years. Her whole site is awesome with lots of info and help but the main concern is that Convenia shot given. Please do not let your vet give any more Convenia shots. http://catinfo.org/?link=convenia
 
Sounds good, don't give him the 3u while doing the diet change though. Monitor and go from the numbers you get since you can do that easier with Prozinc.

Generally you can go by the directions on the can, or use Janet and Binky's charts to calculate calories per can, I think most cats need 20-30 calories per pound of ideal weight per day, so if you've got a cat who would weigh 10 pounds at ideal weight that would be 200-300 calories, or 2-3 cans of Fancy Feast.

Your routine for shot times should go test, feed, shoot. Test right around shot time and get what we call a "preshot" number, then give him a meal, and then shoot the insulin in afterwards (or even while he's eating). The preshot number you get will determine what dose you give, because you are using Prozinc. Someone may have the link to the Prozinc dosing protocol, I don't :P Other than the preshot meals, you can divide up the can and feed it however you want throughout the day. 4 meals a day works well for most, some do more. Don't give any food in the 2 hrs before each shot so you can get a "clean" preshot number - one that's not influenced by recent food intake.

However, unregulated diabetics cannot properly process the food they're eating, so they may need a little bit more food than usual. You can give him boiled (or even raw) chicken breast or other meat as snacks/treats if he likes that.
 
I've read the horror stories about Convenia and probably will never get it again, but it seems like the animals die within a day or two after getting the shot and nothing longer than a week, so I think he's OK. I'd rather not have the thought of adverse reactions tacked on to my stress already. He's the same happy, energetic cat, just pees a lot lol
 
Any thoughts about caging him with a litter box and food and water until his pee problem stops? We can't keep cleaning up after him every time he lets loose and the house is starting to reek. I just don't want him to have any psychological issues due to the confinement. I'm not a fan of caging animals, but the pee smell is not good and would like for him to stay in one spot.
 
I don't think Covenia works for urinary issues so if he really does have an infection (and not inflammation) you may need another antibiotic.

I wouldn't cage him but if you can set him up in the bathroom that should be OK, it shouldn't last more than a few days as I'm hoping the diet change will show you significant improvement.
 
Ry & Scooter said:
..if you can set him up in the bathroom that should be OK
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The bathroom is a high traffic area and isn't big enough to fit a box in comfortably. Plus it's upstairs and any escape attempts could potentially give him more pee spots. A lot of the upstairs is carpeted as well.

We have 3 boxes set up in the basement, but that his main area of peeing anyway. Lock him down there and he would end up just going on the floor every time.
 
A 3.5 foot to 4 foot long dog crate is big enough for a litterbox, bed, and food. I have used it successfully when working with behavior problems.

In and of itself, it will not prevent the problem from re-ocurring until any infection is over and the diabetes regulated.

You must thoroughly clean any spots which were nailed, as residual odor will prompt peeing in the absence of any medical condition. Nature's Miracle is one product that may help.
 
Welcome to the FDMB! Don't give up on kitty just yet! Stick with these guys and happier days will come your way. Ask, ask questions and research research research! The gang here is very responsive (as you can see) and we all have your cats best interest at heart :YMHUG:
 
His glucose is 326 mg/dL. That's pretty high. I'm feeding him wet food now. How much Prozinc should I give him? The change in diet drops the amount of insulin?
 
I just want to stress that you need to get some home testing under your belt before you change the food to wet. DO NOT MAKE THE CHANGE TO WET AND BLINDLY CONTINUE ON THE HIGHER INSULIN DOSE! The food change will make a huge and immediate difference. If you shoot the same dose but drastically lower the carbs your kitty can go hypoglycemic and possibly die. I know - mine went there - minus 1 life for Buster - he has 8 left thank goodness!!
 
326 is not super high, generally we consider "high" in the 400 or even 500+'s. How long until shot time? If you post what his preshot is (# right before his shot) someone can advise you what dose to give.

Yes, the canned food will significantly reduce his insulin need. It could take a few days (2 at the most) for all the carbs to flush out of his system so you don't want to give 3u until you know where his numbers are going to settle.
 
So I gave him 2 units instead of 3 which was his original dose. I'll check is glucose again to make sure he's ok I'm a few hours. I'm watching him too. He's just laying under a chair now, head up. Hopefully he'll be ok. I wish I was told to ease into the wet diet!
 
It's ok to change the diet if you are watching and testing - which you are. I just didn't want you to be without the proper tools to help your kitty. I didn't mean to scare you, but hypoglycemia ain't no joke! Good luck to you both!!
 
You are doing a great job for your kitty - changing the diet and testing at home. It will be helpful if you get a number about 2 hours after the shot - that will help us see how things are headed. And then 6 hours after the shot to see how low the insulin is taking him.

The next thing that we would like you to do is set up a spreadsheet. It is a great tool for you ,and easy for us to see your history when you want dose advice. Here are the directions:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

It's a little tricky so if you need help, just ask.
 
Hi Rich !
Buy some Cat Attract .....put out by Dr. Elsey's Clumping Litter. It's expensive, I just paid $25. for a large bag.
Tucker "free peed" everywhere a few weeks ago, until I used the new litter. IT IS WELL WORTH IT !
I also used a new larger "sweater box" as a litter pan, about 18" wide by 30" long and 6" deep. Use the whole bag of litter in there.
Tucker had 3 boxes and rarely used any of them, until I switched. Now he's using it almost 100% !
I actually now use 2 boxes like this. I regained my sanity!
Also, "OdorMute" is really good for cat urine smell. I used it in the carpet cleaner and smell was gone.
To keep Tucker from going back to areas of the carpet, I put the clear plastic carpet runners on the areas, but upside down so the sharp plastic nubs point up. It works!

PS: Thanks to the people here, Tucker is Off the Juice, and I'm living a normal life with my cats once again!!!
 
I just checked his glucose again and got a value of 555 mg/dL 2 hours after food and the shot. what is that about?
 
Food raises bg levels so that could be part of it. And it's just one number. Keep testing in a few hours so we can see what happens next.
 
Ok, so the cage thing is not going to work. We put him in there with water, a cardboard box and a litter box. Not even five minutes, he turned around, put his front paws in the litter and peed on the cardboard box. Worth a shot. We are locking him in the basement for now until we figure this out.
 
Forgive me for jumping in on this conversation, but I am confused about the order of testing glucose. My vet told me to feed my cat first, check for glucose, and then according to the results, either give the insulin or don't.

Some of you are saying to test, feed then shoot.

Which is correct?

Thanks.

Cindy
 
It's test, food, shoot. You can give the shot while they are eating as long as you are confident they won't throw up. While it's true that food usually doesn't impact the numbers for 20 minutes or so, if you have trouble getting the test and the food causes the number to rise, then you are getting a number that is food impacted and not "true".
 
Hi Rich -

Grayson used to be on ProZinc and he was peeing out of the box, as well as other places. Clorox Clean-Up (for surfaces) and Vinegar (in laundry/fabrics/carpet) were my best friends! Had urinalysis done - it appears he was doing it as a result of the unregulated diabetes.

We started ProZinc at 1 unit, AND we started one week after changing him from dry Kitt-N-Kaboodle to Fancy Feast Classic Pates. Many people here have seen as much as a 100 point drop from the food change alone.

I recently got a foster kitty that was "thrown away" because of diabetes. She was on 3u ProZinc for a month. I have given her only Fancy Feast and tested her, only to find her numbers were in a normal range - non-diabetic. She may have shown high BGs due to an antibiotic. Or she's a diet-controlled diabetic. Either way, I haven't shot her with insulin yet, and she's giving me numbers like 92.

The frequent testing will help you get a handle on where your kitty is at, and you'll have good guidance here as well. The food change will help, but best to do it while you're around, and do it gradually. Diet changes in general can be very hard on a kitty's system.

Good luck and ask all the questions you have - one or more of us has probably dealt with anything you can throw at us!

Lu-Ann
 
Thanks for all the responses! I just took his glucose level 11 hours post food/shot and it's at 72mg/dL. What do I do now? When will I know that he will be rid of the diabetes?
 
We don't recommend new users shoot under 200, so if he has not bounced back up by shot time, don't give him any insulin. 72 is a very nice number though!

Diabetes never goes away. It can go into remission, but you can't cure it. We consider a cat in remission when their numbers are between 50-120 ish without insulin, with most of their time being spent in the double digits.
 
Some cats become regulated - they stick to a low carb diet and are managed with a set amount of insulin on a schedule each day.

Other cats may be able to get off insulin if the owner is diligent about diet and testing carefully and the pancreas wasn't too damaged. In that situation, you must be vigilent for signs of diabetes returning, which can happen during illnesses such as dental disease, kidney infections, bladder stones, and so forth.
 
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