Cat - Not responding to insulin.

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BradB

BradB

Member
Hello everyone,

I'm new here to the forums and hope some of you have advice for me.

In November my 14 year old male cat was diagnosed with diabetes. We started out at 1 unit in the morning and night and I went back to the vet a week later to have his blood sugar tested again. It was in the 500s. So the vet raised the dose to 2 units in the morning and night and I went back the following week to have his blood sugar tested again. Once again he was in the 500s and didn't seem to be responding at all. The vet said maybe the cat being stressed on the ride to the clinic caused his levels to spike, but he proceeded to raise it again. I think he bumped it up to 4 units twice a day and on the following check up his blood sugar was a little lower I think in the 400s but still way to high. Anyway, this kept going on until reaching 7 units. The cat still isn't responding at all so I took him to the vet today and they're running a glucose curve and seeing if he's responding at all. The vet called and said things aren't looking well and the cat isn't responding very well. He said he got the sugars down to the 300s but said that was still way too high.

I'm at my wits end and the vet is suggesting to put the cat down. I really don't want to lose my cat as I've had him since I was 4 years old and am really attached to him.

I'm worried the cat is suffering and I really don't want him to suffer any longer. I'm hoping maybe you guys can suggest something more I can do to try and save my cat.

Please give me any advice that could help, I really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance,
Brad

EDIT:

I guess i've left out some details. My cat LOVES his wet food and I have no problem getting him to eat. He has lost a lot of weight due to the diabetes but doesn't look too unhealthy.

The cat urinates a lot and fills up the cat box in a day and I have to empty it almost completely to clean it. This has not got any better since starting his insulin injections. I have been using ProZinc insulin.

Thanks for your time.
 
Brad,

We will help you with your cat. What's his name?
You do NOT have to put your cat down. It's just a matter of getting to the right dose, and using the right insulin for your buddy. Don't worry so much. You have come to the right place for lots of help. The people on this board have tons of experience with diabetic kittys.
 
My cats name is Shadow.

Thanks a lot! I am very worried because he hasn't showed any signs of improvement at all and I'm afraid he's just getting worse.

I DON'T want to put him down but I'm just afraid he's suffering and not feeling well. He's had a very long and good life and has never had any health problems prior to this. Especially because the vet recommended to put him down that's what makes me uneasy and not very hopeful.

I will do whatever it takes to get him feeling better, and I see you guys recommend testing at home. I don't mind at all investing in this stuff as I do have the money to pay for it. Just let me know what to do!

Thanks a lot for the reply.
 
Hi Brad,

I am a Prozinc user and have had very good success with the insulin. I have seen cats on Prozinc whose doses were increased too much at a time and their ideal doses were missed. They ended up having curves exactly like you are describing. We prefer to increase doses in .25 increments -- whole unit increments are a large increase, regardless of the BG. We had a cat a few months ago that came into the Prozinc forum that was on 8 units of Prozinc and was remaining in the 500s and Hi all day long and the vet was encouraging another unit increase. This cat's dose had been increased at 1 to 2 unit increments and his dose had been missed. The cat was still eating dry food, but after a change in diet the cat became regulated on 3 units of Prozinc.

I am going to cross post your post in the Prozinc forum and see if I can get some additional eyes on your post.

Please do not consider putting the cat down at this time. Diabetes can be managed. Regardless, if the cat needs more or less insulin, there is help within this forum for him.

Kim
 
You don't need to put your cat down!

What you need to do is start home testing.
Go to the pharmacy and pick up a blood glucose meter.
That dose you are giving is HIGH and it could be causing the problems!
It's VERY easy to home test and find out exactly what's happening to your cat with all that insulin.
Testing on cat’s ear

Get the curve numbers from the vet, what time insulin was given, how much, and all the times and numbers of the tests done by the vet.

Curves at the vet are stressful and the numbers obtained are artificial.

one of my cats tests higher at the vet and one tests lower. When I get them home, they return to their true numbers.
 
Vets are not used to people who test their cats, and sadly a lot of people choose to put their pet down when they get the dx of diabetes, thinking it's too much for them to do.
My kitty J.D. is a healthy 17 year old and has had diabetes since he was 10. Because he's older, he gets his complete bloodwork and check up done every six months. We go for walks together outside, he sometimes goes to work with me, and he goes on vacations with me. We have become a lot more closely bonded through all our trials and triumphs.

Most of us here on this board, do dose increases and decreases in 0.25 unit increments. So, you will want to buy syringes with 1/2 unit marks on them. And you'll want to buy some ketone test strips. You'll want to get the lowest carb food you can find, and start home testing. Once you're home testing, you (and we) can see how Shadow is doing on a particuliar dose and help you to adjust it.

Hope is not lost, by a long shot. Hang in there.
 
I'm not a PZI user so I'll leave the dosing to the experts over there.

However, there is one big thing you can do for your cat: learn to test his BG levels at home! The stress of being at the vet's makes vet's reading suspect at best. You can use a human meter (many on here use the Relion Confirm or Micro from Walmart as they have some of the cheapest strips) There are several good videos to help you learn how to draw the blood; it's very easy once you get the hang of it! By testing, you can start to see your cat's day to day patterns and how he's handling the insulin. Too much insulin can cause high numbers, and your vet did raise the dose by a LOT very fast; it's possible you missed the best dose.

Also, with continued high numbers, you should probably test for ketones daily. You can by Ketostix at the pharmacy and you test by dipping it in the urine stream when he pees. Ketones are a life-threatening emergency condition. But so is hypoglycemia, which is also a risk of increasing insulin without home testing.

Finally, what are you feeding? Many on here have found that feeding low-carb wet food only significantly lowers BG almost immediately. You said you feed wet, but if it has gravy or other sauce, it may still not be low carb. The catch: If you are not feeding a low carb wet diet, DO NOT switch cold turkey without home testing of BG. It's likely that a switch will immediately require a reduction in insulin, and not making the change carefully could result in a life-threatening hypo! If you make the switch immediately, you will probably need to drop your insulin dose way down right away. Again, the PZI folks can help direct you. You can make food switches more safely by changing over gradually and checking the numbers very carefully and often as you go.

We've all been there, wondering if we would ever find the right dose or the right food
 
Hi Brad and welcome!

Agree, if kitty is not having serious complications right now there is no need to consider putting him down just because his blood sugar continues to be high.

there's plenty of reasons for his BG (blood glucose) to be high. it's a matter of ruling them all out and changing things that need to be changed to rule them out. for instance, what has he been eating? the goal is low carbohydrates or proper diet, just like humans. if he's getting too many carbs, his levels are going to stay high. perhaps the insulin isn't one that is going to work for him. in all honesty though i think it's too soon to tell that though. also, there's also other illnesses that could be causing it, like acromegaly for instance.

what i would suggest is getting kitty home and relaxed and yes, start hometesting. it's really the only way to know for sure what is happening with the insulin. sporadic testing in a clinic setting is often inaccurate just due to the stress kitty is feeling. just so you know, things like stress, pain, infection, etc....can all raise BG levels.

there's directions to doing up a spreadsheet in the tech forum here. it's a real easy way to log your test numbers and because it's color coded, it's real easy to see trends or problems with the doses. dose changes need to be done in smaller increments in all honesty. raising the dose based on a number every few weeks is a bad way to go about things. that often leads to missing the perfect dose and people getting frustrated because it's not working. cats are teeny weeny creatures compared to us. their doses are much more fine than ours. for instance, my Mousie gets 1/2 a unit twice a day. that's HALF a unit.

we also have individual forums here for each insulin. if you want you can check out the PZI forum and get more info on how to work prozinc and it's dosing. yes, down the road a little you may find you'll need to try another insulin, but i'd try working the prozinc a bit longer just because the dosing has been done incorrectly so far, in my opinion :-)
 
kse said:
Hi Brad,

I am a Prozinc user and have had very good success with the insulin. I have seen cats on Prozinc whose doses were increased too much at a time and their ideal doses were missed. They ended up having curves exactly like you are describing. We prefer to increase doses in .25 increments -- whole unit increments are a large increase, regardless of the BG. We had a cat a few months ago that came into the Prozinc forum that was on 8 units of Prozinc and was remaining in the 500s and Hi all day long and the vet was encouraging another unit increase. This cat's dose had been increased at 1 to 2 unit increments and his dose had been missed. The cat was still eating dry food, but after a change in diet the cat became regulated on 3 units of Prozinc.

I am going to cross post your post in the Prozinc forum and see if I can get some additional eyes on your post.

Please do not consider putting the cat down at this time. Diabetes can be managed. Regardless, if the cat needs more or less insulin, there is help within this forum for him.

Kim
Click to expand...
Hello,

Thanks for the reply. I do recall reading that if the dose is increased to rapidly that it could cause levels to spike. Do they have needles that have smaller increments like .25 or do you just eyeball it? I did think the vet was increasing the dose way too fast but i figured since he is a vet he would know what he's doing. Basically the vet told me that nothing else could be done and that it's time. I am very glad I came and posted on here, it was my only option left before letting go of my cat.
What type of diet is recommended for a cat with diabetes? Is ScienceDiet a good brand? Or what do you guys recommend?

Thanks a lot for cross posting it, hopefully I can get even more advice now! I'm taking everything I can get.

Gayle Shadoe & Oliver said:
You don't need to put your cat down!

What you need to do is start home testing.
Go to the pharmacy and pick up a blood glucose meter.
That dose you are giving is HIGH and it could be causing the problems!
It's VERY easy to home test and find out exactly what's happening to your cat with all that insulin.
Testing on cat’s ear

Get the curve numbers from the vet, what time insulin was given, how much, and all the times and numbers of the tests done by the vet.

Curves at the vet are stressful and the numbers obtained are artificial.

one of my cats tests higher at the vet and one tests lower. When I get them home, they return to their true numbers.
Click to expand...

I'm very glad you all are so confident that he can get better! I really do hope he gets better and I would forever be grateful! Do they sell the glucose meters at walmart's pharmacy? I will go by there later tonight and pick up all the testing supplies.

I will get the numbers from the vet tomorrow and all the stats and post them here tomorrow. My cat gets very stressed out on the ride there and meows very loud the whole time so I can only imagine how stressed out he is not being at home and around unfamiliar people.

Thanks for the advice!

Later tonight I will be making a donation to the forum, I'm very thankful I found it!

Thanks again for the responses.
 
Dyana said:
Vets are not used to people who test their cats, and sadly a lot of people choose to put their pet down when they get the dx of diabetes, thinking it's too much for them to do.
My kitty J.D. is a healthy 17 year old and has had diabetes since he was 10. Because he's older, he gets his complete bloodwork and check up done every six months. We go for walks together outside, he sometimes goes to work with me, and he goes on vacations with me. We have become a lot more closely bonded through all our trials and triumphs.

Most of us here on this board, do dose increases and decreases in 0.25 unit increments. So, you will want to buy syringes with 1/2 unit marks on them. And you'll want to buy some ketone test strips. You'll want to get the lowest carb food you can find, and start home testing. Once you're home testing, you (and we) can see how Shadow is doing on a particuliar dose and help you to adjust it.

Hope is not lost, by a long shot. Hang in there.
Click to expand...
Glad to hear your kitty is doing well. I don't mind taking care of my cat since he needs it and has always been here for me when I need him!

The thing I worry about most is him suffering, and I don't want that. I'll get some ketone test strips also. What is the lowest carb food that you have found? I could order it online if I can't find it at any local stores.

Thanks for your response.


MikeysMom said:
I'm not a PZI user so I'll leave the dosing to the experts over there.

However, there is one big thing you can do for your cat: learn to test his BG levels at home! The stress of being at the vet's makes vet's reading suspect at best. You can use a human meter (many on here use the Relion Confirm or Micro from Walmart as they have some of the cheapest strips) There are several good videos to help you learn how to draw the blood; it's very easy once you get the hang of it! By testing, you can start to see your cat's day to day patterns and how he's handling the insulin. Too much insulin can cause high numbers, and your vet did raise the dose by a LOT very fast; it's possible you missed the best dose.

Also, with continued high numbers, you should probably test for ketones daily. You can by Ketostix at the pharmacy and you test by dipping it in the urine stream when he pees. Ketones are a life-threatening emergency condition. But so is hypoglycemia, which is also a risk of increasing insulin without home testing.

Finally, what are you feeding? Many on here have found that feeding low-carb wet food only significantly lowers BG almost immediately. You said you feed wet, but if it has gravy or other sauce, it may still not be low carb. The catch: If you are not feeding a low carb wet diet, DO NOT switch cold turkey without home testing of BG. It's likely that a switch will immediately require a reduction in insulin, and not making the change carefully could result in a life-threatening hypo! If you make the switch immediately, you will probably need to drop your insulin dose way down right away. Again, the PZI folks can help direct you. You can make food switches more safely by changing over gradually and checking the numbers very carefully and often as you go.

We've all been there, wondering if we would ever find the right dose or the right food
Click to expand...

I am definitely going to buy a glucose meter at walmart later tonight and get the test strips.

Scary about the ketones, the vet has never mentioned anything. He doens't seem very knowledgable whenever I ask him questions.

I am feeding him fancy feast "gourmet" classics. I also purchased a bunch of plastic packets from amazon and all of those have 'gravy'. The cat also has ScienceDiet dry food sitting out for him at all times.

Do you guys think I should just restart his dose at 1 and do home testing and go from there?

Thanks for the response!

Cindy + Mousie said:
Hi Brad and welcome!

Agree, if kitty is not having serious complications right now there is no need to consider putting him down just because his blood sugar continues to be high.

there's plenty of reasons for his BG (blood glucose) to be high. it's a matter of ruling them all out and changing things that need to be changed to rule them out. for instance, what has he been eating? the goal is low carbohydrates or proper diet, just like humans. if he's getting too many carbs, his levels are going to stay high. perhaps the insulin isn't one that is going to work for him. in all honesty though i think it's too soon to tell that though. also, there's also other illnesses that could be causing it, like acromegaly for instance.

what i would suggest is getting kitty home and relaxed and yes, start hometesting. it's really the only way to know for sure what is happening with the insulin. sporadic testing in a clinic setting is often inaccurate just due to the stress kitty is feeling. just so you know, things like stress, pain, infection, etc....can all raise BG levels.

there's directions to doing up a spreadsheet in the tech forum here. it's a real easy way to log your test numbers and because it's color coded, it's real easy to see trends or problems with the doses. dose changes need to be done in smaller increments in all honesty. raising the dose based on a number every few weeks is a bad way to go about things. that often leads to missing the perfect dose and people getting frustrated because it's not working. cats are teeny weeny creatures compared to us. their doses are much more fine than ours. for instance, my Mousie gets 1/2 a unit twice a day. that's HALF a unit.

we also have individual forums here for each insulin. if you want you can check out the PZI forum and get more info on how to work prozinc and it's dosing. yes, down the road a little you may find you'll need to try another insulin, but i'd try working the prozinc a bit longer just because the dosing has been done incorrectly so far, in my opinion :-)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the warm welcome! The only reason I was considering putting him down is because the vet recommended it and I think his quality of life can't be very good.

I will definitely follow all of the advice given here and make the jump and do home testing. Anything to get my kitty better!

Shadow will come home tomorrow and hopefully we can start home testing. He is such a mellow cat and would let me do anything to him. He doesn't even fuss when it's time for shots and actually wants me to give him it so he can get his wet food! He loves that stuff.

I will look into the tech forum and into doing a spreadsheet once I get the meter and testing supplies.

I am almost out of the ProZinc but will purchase another bottle. Is it cheaper to get it from a pharmacy rather than the vet? I think I paid $94 at the vet last time.
 
Brad,
We are confident because we KNOW we can help you!
I forgot to add for your shopping list.... get a container of KETOSTIX as you want to start testing urine for ketones.
Walmart is great.... get the Relion meter and the test strips and lancets for it.
Do not get any of the FreeStyle meters.

you are using U40 syringes with the Prozinc? I believe you can use U100 syringes for smaller doses.

Once you are home testing, you will see that your numbers at home are not like the ones at the vet!
What dose are you giving at the moment and what times are your shots.

don't you worry now; the good people here will get you and your cat fixed up in no time.
You are going to see your old cat back again very soon.
 
I buy my ReliOn syringes from Walmart. They have the syringes with the 1/2 unit marks for $12.58 for 100 syringes. You can also purchase the ReliOn meter and test strips while you're there, and don't forget to pick up the Ketostix, too.
Then you can go to the pet section, and pick up some low carb canned cat food. A lot of us feed Fancy Feast.
See this chart or this one. The carb %s are in the 3rd colomn. I've been known to take a print out of the chart with me :lol: That was an important point that MikeysMom made regarding the switch to low carb food. If Shadow is now eating higher carb food, then you will want to make the transition slowly, until you are testing, and able to monitor him closely.
 
Oh, my mistake then, maybe the ReliOn syringes at WalMart won't work for PZI. I'm sorry, I don't use PZI, so am just used to buying U100 syringes. Others will be able to help you more with that.

You're going to want to take that dry food away, and when you do there could be a dramatic decrease in BGs, so don't take it away until you're home testing.

Best of Luck, to ya.
 
Brad,

You have already gotten some great advice so I'm not going to add to the information overload, but want to tell you a tale of two kitties so you can see that there is hope for Shadow.

I have 13 cats, 2 of which are diabetics, and it is those two that I'm going to talk about...Maxwell & Musette both of whom I adopted as diabetics because their former owners where going to have them put to sleep. Maxwell survived hurricane Katrina but when he became diabetic and his first mom after the hurricane also got sick and had to go into a nursing home her family was going to have Maxwell put down. He was in sad shape when I adopted him, he was a walking skeleton at 10.5 lbs and had to be shaved because he was so matted...a year and 6 months later Maxwell is flipping catnip mice in the air and chasing 6 week old kittens through the house. He is a lean 17lbs and if you didnt know he was a diabetic you would never guess by looking at him and the best part is that he hasn't had insulin in over a year either. He's about 13 years old as close as we can figure.

Then this June my husband and I adopted Musette after her family of 11 years were going to have her put down as well. If I had thought Maxwell was in bad shape, Musette was worse. She had already survived DKA, she could barely walk because she had diabetic neuropathy (walking on her hocks) and weighed a mere 6 lbs, she is the same kitty that you now see as my avatar. Not only does she now weigh a purrfect 8lbs and rules this house with a velvet paw. :lol: She is still insulin dependent but is doing great on .6u of Levemir.

SInce there are so many cats at my house and everyone needs to eat what the diabetics do, we feed just good old fashioned Friskies Pate style cat food, this is the same diet that got Maxwell off insulin and has gotten Musette down to suce a small dose.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang
 
The dry food could well be a HUGE part of the problem. Taking my cat off all dry food lowered his BG by over 100 almost instantly. The FF classics (pate style with no gravy) are fine;many of us use them, including me!

Most Science Diet foods are pretty terrible, most of us avoid them. I would start by removing all dry food and lowering the dose. Again,not a PZI user, so I'm not comfortable suggesting a dose, but someone will help you. Again, pulling the dry WILL require an immediate dose reduction!

I'm glad you are so willing to take the steps to help your kitty! This DOES get easier!
 
BradB said:
What is the lowest carb food that you have found? I could order it online if I can't find it at any local stores.
Click to expand...

Well known big brand such as Fancy Feast and Friskies are just fine to feed and are avaialable nearly everywhere, from supermarkets to the chain pharmacy store to chain pet stores to discount stores :smile: There are many other brands you can feed. Wellness is popular as is Innova EVO and Special Kitty. Whatever brand your cat likes to eat and you can afford is just fine :smile:

But not all varieties are low enough in carbs for a diabetic. We use Binky's food charts http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html and the Pet Food Nutritional Values chart. Look at the column for carbs and choose foods that have a number 10 or less.

And there's a list of low carb gluten free Fancy Feast http://www.felinediabetes.com/glutenfree.htm

One more food list: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=12846

Gravy based foods are too high in carbs to be fed but do keep a few cans to use in case your cat hypos. The high carbs will raise blood glucose levels. Any of the Fancy Feast varieties in gravy (over 18% carbs on the chart) work well.

Limit seafood to once in awhile meals/treats. Too much seafood can be hard on the kidneys and some cats just get addicted to eating it.

Low carb treats are best: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9172


I am feeding him fancy feast "gourmet" classics. I also purchased a bunch of plastic packets from amazon and all of those have 'gravy'. The cat also has ScienceDiet dry food sitting out for him at all times.
Click to expand...


Pouhces of foods tend to be too high in carbs because of the thickeners used for the gravy. If your cat will eat canned food there is no reason at all to feed dry food. Science Diet dry foods have well over 20%, some even at 40% carbs :shock: All those carbs keep blood glucose levels too high despite the huge amount of insulin you are giving.

BUT... don't stop the dry food just yet. Doing so will result in blood glucose levels dropping a lot and giving that usual amount of insulin will very likely cause a hypo. Learn how to test your cat's blood glucose levels and then slowly change the diet and decrease the insulin as needed.

Do they have needles that have smaller increments like .25 or do you just eyeball it?
Click to expand...

For U40 insulin syringes, no. Neither do U100 insulin syringes.

But many people here use U100 insulin syringes with half unit markings to dose U40 insulin (like ProZinc). There is a conversion that you must do in order to accurately give U40 insulin with the U100 insulin syringes: http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm
 
Prozinc is a U40 insulin and I would start out using U40 syringes. I get my syringes from my vet. Yes, you can use U100 syringes, BUT you MUST use a conversion chart. The U100s are used mainly when dosing small units of Prozinc. I use only the U40s and I have two cats receiving the insulin. One cat get 3 units three times a day (tid) and one gets .3 units twice a day--- right or wrong, I eyeball all doses. There are some cats that are fine tuned and are dosed using U100s, but my cats are not that sensitive to the small doses.

My cat, Kitty, is 16.5 years old and is well regulated on Prozinc and dosed tid. The other cat I am caring for, is a foster (kind of...maybe mine!) from DCIN (Diabetic Cats in Need). He came to me from a shelter and was eating dry food. I switched his diet to wet low carb Fancy Feast. He was switched to wet food for a week before starting insulin. The first week with me, his blood glucose levels were in the 300s at preshot-- this is his forth week with me and he just went 67 hours with no insulin! I have hopes that he might become a diet controlled diabetic.

There is A LOT of help here for you! I am not sure my cat, Kitty, would have survived without this forum. Don't give up on Shadow...you have come to the right place!
 
Hi Brad... I too had a vet that didn't understand diabetes. My cat turned out to be a high dose kitty with acromegaly, something my vet said was too rare to exist. It wasn't until I change vets that I was able to get Silverado's numbers under control. The new vet recognized the problem, was thrilled that I was home testing, and worked with me to get Silverado on the right insulin. If the vet you have now is not encouraging home testing and is not willing to help you find the right dose and the right insulin... shop around for a vet who is open minded enough to give you that help. They do exist. Where are you located? Maybe someone on the forum can recommend a vet in your area. I promise you that once you have the correct dose, the correct doctor, and a testing routine, this gets much easier and you'll have a healthy happy kitty again.

Best of luck to you and Shadow.
 
Hi BradB & Shadow.
I am Jenn & my big brown cat is Baxter. We are ProZinc users.
You are definitely in the right place to get Shadow feeling better. There are so many people here with amazing experience.

There was a point when my vet told me to increase insulin. The only thing it did for Baxter was increase his BG. I got so much experienced help from the PZI family Baxter has much better BG now. You should come over to PZI support board & get dosing advice. Once you get Shadows BG lowered you will start to see a improvement in how he acts.

There are smaller needles. ProZinc is U-40 insulin & general you use U-40 needles. You can use U-100 needles, but you have to use a conversion chart to use U-100 needles. They are easier to use for smaller dosing. Again, I would suggest you come over to PZI & let the experienced memebers help you.

Everything is going to be ok...Promise. There is no reason to entertain the thought of pushing Shadow to the bridge.

See you in PZI!
Jenn & Baxter cat_pet_icon
 
Gayle Shadoe & Oliver said:
Brad,
We are confident because we KNOW we can help you!
I forgot to add for your shopping list.... get a container of KETOSTIX as you want to start testing urine for ketones.
Walmart is great.... get the Relion meter and the test strips and lancets for it.
Do not get any of the FreeStyle meters.

you are using U40 syringes with the Prozinc? I believe you can use U100 syringes for smaller doses.

Once you are home testing, you will see that your numbers at home are not like the ones at the vet!
What dose are you giving at the moment and what times are your shots.

don't you worry now; the good people here will get you and your cat fixed up in no time.
You are going to see your old cat back again very soon.
Click to expand...

That's great I'm glad I found the forum. I am indeed using the u-40 syringes with the ProZinc.

So my shopping list looks like this:

1)KETOSTIX
2)Relion meter
3)test strips for the above
4)lancets
5)Fancy feast low carb wet food

Anything I'm missing?

The current dose I am giving is 7 units at 9AM and 9PM.

My cat currently weights 9.5 pounds and has lost weight since his prior vet visit.

Thanks for the link to the spreadsheet, I've saved it to my computer. :)

Dyana said:
I buy my ReliOn syringes from Walmart. They have the syringes with the 1/2 unit marks for $12.58 for 100 syringes. You can also purchase the ReliOn meter and test strips while you're there, and don't forget to pick up the Ketostix, too.
Then you can go to the pet section, and pick up some low carb canned cat food. A lot of us feed Fancy Feast.
See this chart or this one. The carb %s are in the 3rd colomn. I've been known to take a print out of the chart with me :lol: That was an important point that MikeysMom made regarding the switch to low carb food. If Shadow is now eating higher carb food, then you will want to make the transition slowly, until you are testing, and able to monitor him closely.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the chart, I bookmarked both pages. I will be going with fancy feast since I know he likes it already.

@MommaofMuse

Your story gives me a little bit of faith that things will get better and that there is some hope afterall. Thanks.

@MikeysMom

From what i've read a lot of people have success by changing their animal's diet so I think the dry food is a big part of the problem also.

It's kind of that the science diet food is so bad, the vet told me if I can get him to eat it that I should switch him to that only... Ugh.

After I get all the testing supplies I will remove the dry food from the equation and lower the dose.. Hopefully someone familiar with prozinc will recommend a starting dose.

@squeem3

I know my local walmart carries fancy feast and amazon does too. My cat likes some variety so I guess I'll pick up a few different cases of it. Although it sucks because I just bought $40 of the pouched food. I guess I can donate it to the local shelter since my cat won't be eating anymore of it.

I will keep a few of the pouched foods on hand incase he ever hypos. Thanks for the tip!

I never feed my cat seafood but he does enjoy his treats. I wasn't aware it was hard on their kidneys so thanks for the info!

I bookmarked the insulin conversion page and I will possibly pickup some u100 syringes. thank you,

@kse

I have a bunch of U40 syringes that have the prozinc labeling on them so maybe I'll just stick to using them for now.

I'm glad you have your cats regulated! I'm happy so many of you have success with treating your cats diabetes and it gives me lots of hope!

@Jane & Silverado

I've actually been to 2 vets in my town and both of them were pretty much useless when I asked them questions or looked at me like I was stupid for asking them. I live in a small city in Nevada so there aren't many choices to go to. I could drive an hour away and most likely find a good one, it just may be worth it.

I would like to thank you all for replying to my thread so promptly and giving me newfound hope! I hope you all have a great night -- I'll be heading to walmart in a bit.
 
Jenn & Baxter said:
Hi BradB & Shadow.
I am Jenn & my big brown cat is Baxter. We are ProZinc users.
You are definitely in the right place to get Shadow feeling better. There are so many people here with amazing experience.

There was a point when my vet told me to increase insulin. The only thing it did for Baxter was increase his BG. I got so much experienced help from the PZI family Baxter has much better BG now. You should come over to PZI support board & get dosing advice. Once you get Shadows BG lowered you will start to see a improvement in how he acts.

There are smaller needles. ProZinc is U-40 insulin & general you use U-40 needles. You can use U-100 needles, but you have to use a conversion chart to use U-100 needles. They are easier to use for smaller dosing. Again, I would suggest you come over to PZI & let the experienced memebers help you.

Everything is going to be ok...Promise. There is no reason to entertain the thought of pushing Shadow to the bridge.

See you in PZI!
Jenn & Baxter cat_pet_icon
Click to expand...
Hey Jenn & Baxter.

I posted in the PZI forum! viewtopic.php?f=24&t=66167

See you there :)
 
Get 25-28 gauge lancets. (humans can use smaller gauge lancets 30-31 gauge and they are usually the size in lancet packages). Diabetic cats often need the larger gauge.
 
Brad,
you are going to find that FDMB is a one stop shop; there is not much in the way of help and info relating to feline diabetes and all related issues that you will not find here.

All you need your vet for will be vet stuff like prescriptions, and fixing broken bones, and dentals, and running tests, etc. The rest is right here.
 
Hi Brad,

I was in the same boat as you just a couple weeks ago, vet had my cat on hills w/d dry, and wanted to keep increasing insulin...but it was just making her worse. I did a diet change about 2.5 weeks ago and immediately had to cut insulin doses in half, within a week I was shooting 1/10 to 1/20th the original dose, and I haven't checked her lately but she has now gone 75 hours without insulin and had BG readings from 54-78 for the last 48 hours or so. Some cats go into remission, most cats can have their diabetes managed. Fire your vet, I did!

Cathy
 
Brad,
Did you get all the food info and an answer for what dose with wet food?

Binky’s Food Lists
Feeding Your Cat: Know The Basics of Feline Nutrition
List of Low Carb Healthy Treats

You may see her dose drop off a cliff when you take away that dry food.
There was once a cat who was getting 20 units twice a day of Caninsulin and eating dry food....
the dry food was removed and that cat dropped to something like 1unit twice a day, so yeah, you will see a change.

It would be wise to get the testing started, and ask if you are having any problems so people can help you.
Then you can take away the dry and drop the dose.
I am not familiar with this insulin but I would not see a harm if the numbers warrant it, to drop down to 1unit twice a day and work your way up to a good dose.
Who knows? Maybe a food change is all you need to get off insulin!

Be sure to post and ask any questions you have.
 
Hi Brad,
I read that you are posting in PZI and I hope you will get some great help there. I've been away for a long time, but I was one of the first using Prozinc shortly after it came on the market in Nov 2009. Here's a little info I put together from things I noticed in my boy when he was on it. (We have since switched to levemir) It may help you learn WHEN to get those blood glucose readings to give you the most information.

Prozinc = "PZIR"
typical :onset +2 ,
nadir +4 to +7, (low point of the cycle)
duration +10, (or +11.)
steeper curves than levemir, (which caused reactive bouncing in Cody)
dose TIME more flexible because of shorter duration (you can shoot early if needed because its worn off, 12/12 less strict)
came to market Nov 2009, FDA approved for cats
U40 insulin = 400u in a vial
usually approx $90-130/ vial
durable long shelf life after opened (if refrigerated, handled gently, and kept out of the light)

After you get the Relion meter, strips and low gauge (fatter) lancets; and start testing; try to create the SPREADSHEET,( and linked to your signature) so that you can post your dose and readings for help.

You may ned a little patience at first TESTING, but it become easier quickly. This is my technique:
grab a tissue
I rub ear vigorously.
fold his ear over my finger,
HOLD the lancet on for a good 3-5 sec waiting for the spot to turn pink (helps to have a clear top lancet pen),
then pop it CONTINUING to hold it on the spot until enough blood oozes out,
carefully lift it off, test,
then immediately pinch on the bleed spot with your finger, and hold for 3-5 sec to stop future bruising.
then he eats- YAY! reward!
use a clean lancet everyday to reduce ear irritation and clean the needle after each use (stab a tissue) to not contaminate the next reading.

Best of luck!
 
BradB said:
I have a bunch of U40 syringes that have the prozinc labeling on them so maybe I'll just stick to using them for now.
Click to expand...

Oh, the special ProZinc 12 unit syringes. http://www.prozinc.us/understanding_insulin.aspx You can certainly use those for now :smile:

As a general FYI, there are also U40 insulin syringes with 20 units and the more common 40 units.

If you later decide to use U100 insulin syringes with the conversion chart, buy the 3/10 cc ones with half unit markings so you can more easily measure small doses. You may need a prescription to buy U100 insulin syringes at the local Human pharmacy. Some people here buy online from Hocks.com or AmericanDiabetesWholesale.com
 
Hi, Brad,
Another supporter for you here. I also have a 14 y/o male cat, first diagnosed about 2.5 years ago. Once I changed to wet food (in my case it was Friskies Mixed Grill), he went into remission after only 3 months of insulin. However, last year he got very sick, stopped eating (the diabetes wasn't an issue), so I needed to change his diet to Fancy Feast Elegant Medleys Chicken Fare with Garden Greens, he recovered but his diabetes came back around December, so he's back on insulin. I'm changing his diet again as he refuses the Mixed Grill, currently it's FF Chicken Classic, and his insulin dose seems to be decreasing as he's dropped his glucose too much a couple of times. Currently he is at 0.8 units twice a day.
So, there is a lot that you can do for your kitty, as long as you have the commitment to monitor closely, you should be fine, just be aware that it can be a roller coaster but this is a great community for support. I certainly can't promise you a quick or permanent remission, but talk of euthanasia at this point seems very premature.
I see there's already a ton of good advice in prior posts so I won't repeat it all over again, just welcome and hang around the PZI forum if you like, have some coffee ~O) , relax, learn and share!
 
Hi guys .. I just wanted to welcome you to the board! I am so glad you are ready to hometest and get your little guy back on track! I used lantus with mocha, who just last week celebrated one year OFF the "juice" all thanks to this board! She is fed special kitty from wal mart, she get's the 5.5oz can's for .43 each (it fits best into our budget) she LOVES the turkey and giblets which is low carb, around 3 or 4% .. You CAN do this!!
 
Welcome to the FDMB!

There has been absolutely fantastic advise here already.

Just want to let you know- with the lancet pen didn't work with me. I just free poke with the lancet as I couldn't get the needle above the hole. Sneakers is okay with that as she didn't like the click of the pen (or the beep of the meter) next to her head. You learn how hard to push so it doesn't go through the ear. Larger lancets are a plus at the beginning because those ears are like turnips and they don't want to give up any blood :-D .

My routine:
rub ear- she LOVES the ear rubs- to get warm
take out a strip, close container and place strip on lid
rub some more, poke at edge (you have plenty of links for that)
get a drop to form, scrape the drop up on your fingernail
hold the spot between two fingers for about 3 seconds (longer if it is a gusher) to stop it bleeding
you can let go of Shadow- give treats
place the test strip in the meter, wait for the drop signal, and let the strip suck up the blood at the tip
if Shadow is still in the 'position' give skritches and sweet talk

DO NOT: dump the blood on the strip as it will give an incorrect reading. I did this frequently at the beginning and then went to a health fair and they tested my blood and I saw them use the meter- that is when I realized I was doing it wrong.
 
I wanted to say welcome, as well! Everyone has given you some great advice. Science Diet dry is pretty horrible for diabetic cats, so I suspect once you change the diet to low carb canned food only and lower the dose, and are dosing according to your home test data, you should see a HUGE improvement. I used Lantus with Bandit so I don't have experience with Prozinc, but I would probably lower the dose down pretty dramatically to 1-2u after removing the dry food. You'd be really surprised what a difference that can make in lowering BG, especially with something like Science Diet.

I would stick with the Prozinc for now and see what kind of results you get after a few months home testing and dosing correctly, but another option for you down the road if you're still not seeing good results with the Prozinc is to switch to even a slower acting insulin like Lantus or Levemir. You still have many options left to get your kitty better, so definitely don't give up on her. Unfortunately your vet didn't take you down the right treatment path, but you're getting there now! :smile:
 
make sure you get the relion micro or confirm. takes a smaller drop of blood and sips much faster. The ULTIMA is the older meter. Make sure the strips match the meter.

I also started out on PZI which was a U40 insulin. I used the conversion chart and 1/2 u marking u-100 syringes. I needed to micro dose my cat and U-40 just did not cut it
actually, way back when we started. it was a rare few that used U-40 syringes and even some of those folks switched over to y-100 and the conversion chart

welcom.
also, if you say where you are from,city and state, maybe someone from here can lend a hand to get you started
 
How's everything going with Shadow, Brad? How is he feeling? And, do you need help with learning to test?
 
Hey guys,

Shadow is actually still at the vet so I haven't got to start yet. The vet called yesterday and said he got his sugars down to 300~ with a different type of insulin and that it looks promising.

Either way, I'm still going to be regulating his diet and testing at home. I think I should get him back today, I miss him!

Thanks for all your input guys/girls and when I get all the curve numbers I will be sure to post them so you can examine them.

Thanks again! -Brad
 
If your vet tries to switch her to Humulin N, please ask for a different insulin, or say that you want to continue with Prozinc with home testing. Humulin N will cause steep drops and huge climbs, and does not last a full 12 hrs per shot. It would be a step backwards.

Lantus and Levemir have the best results in cats, with Prozinc not far behind. You want to use one of those three insulins to see good results. Humulin N is good for dogs, but not a good insulin for cats.
 
Hi Brad. I don't have a ton of experience like the rest of these folks, but I had my cat Skipper on Prozinc from mid-December-yesterday (5.5 units twice a day) and saw no improvement. We switched him to Lantus yesterday. The first two blood glucose readings were under 400, which is way lower than they were on Prozinc, but I realize it's still early.

I had to deal with what you're dealing with early on when Skipper went into ketoacidosis in January and was hospitalized for 3 days. I had debated whether to put him down, too, because he also has some other issues, but am determined that the diabetes can be fixed with diligence. The people on this forum have really helped me, as my vet never once mentioned home testing or changing to a canned food diet. I'm still having some issues there, but I'm working on the diet and have started home testing, thanks to the free supplies they sent me. So take the advice of the others here, as they know what they are talking about.

Take care, and good luck.
 
Hey everyone!

I just got Shadow back from the vet, and the vet gave me a piece of paper with his testing results on it.

Unfortunately he switched Shadow to Humulin-N and I know Julia & Bandit said that would be a step backward. I couldn't do anything about it because my mother had to pick Shadow up as I was at work when they called.

Hopefully I will be able to take the bottle back and get a different kind... Any thoughts?

Here's his numbers:

3/13/12

8:15am 696

4 units PZI (New Bottle)
10am 634
11:30am 388
1:30pm >400

3/14/12
7am 378
1unit nph insulin @ 8am
10am 399
2pm 424
4:30pm 2 units nph insulin

3/15/12
7am 394
12 noon 315
3pm 415

I think today he was testing with the Humulin N.

What are your guys' thoughts on this and his numbers?

The vet told my mom that human meters would not work for testing the cat and I would have to get one for animals, is this true?

Thanks!
 
BradB said:
Hey everyone!

I just got Shadow back from the vet, and the vet gave me a piece of paper with his testing results on it.

Unfortunately he switched Shadow to Humulin-N and I know Julia & Bandit said that would be a step backward. I couldn't do anything about it because my mother had to pick Shadow up as I was at work when they called.

Hopefully I will be able to take the bottle back and get a different kind... Any thoughts?

Here's his numbers:

3/13/12

8:15am 696

4 units PZI (New Bottle)
10am 634
11:30am 388
1:30pm >400

3/14/12
7am 378
1unit nph insulin @ 8am
10am 399
2pm 424
4:30pm 2 units nph insulin

3/15/12
7am 394
12 noon 315
3pm 415

I think today he was testing with the Humulin N.

What are your guys' thoughts on this and his numbers?

The vet told my mom that human meters would not work for testing the cat and I would have to get one for animals, is this true?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

NO, you do not need to get the expensive animal meter from the vet. Everyone here uses normal human meters and have no problems, except the Freestyle meters are horrible.

For insulins, my first choice would be Levemir then Lantus and then PZI.
Any one of them will be much better than Humulin N, much much better.
 
Do you still have the PZI? If so, I would use it. I think you are still feeding dry, right? I would slowly change over to all wet, lower the insulin dose while you do that and monitor carefully. Come over the PZI forum and you will get on going help and advice.

Some people here have regulated their cats with Humulin. But it's harder on the cat and the human, and in many cats, not possible. PZI is milder, longer lasting and easier to work with.
 
His numbers are a little high, but you have to take the fact all those numbers where tested in a vet setting. Vet setting BG are always going to be higher because the cat is usually stressed which rise BG. Once Shadow is at home & gets settle down you could some of the numbers go down a little.

I'm a ProZinc user so of coarse I would say get back on ProZinc. I have only read bad things about Humulin N.

Keep in mind it takes a little bit to get settled into a dose. It doesn't happen over night.
 
Gayle Shadoe & Oliver said:
NO, you do not need to get the expensive animal meter from the vet. Everyone here uses normal human meters and have no problems, except the Freestyle meters are horrible.

For insulins, my first choice would be Levemir then Lantus and then PZI.
Any one of them will be much better than Humulin N, much much better.
Click to expand...

Hmm..... Why is a so called "professional" feeding me so much inaccurate information? This bugs me!

So you recommend getting off the ProZinc and switching to levemir or lantus?


Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Do you still have the PZI? If so, I would use it. I think you are still feeding dry, right? I would slowly change over to all wet, lower the insulin dose while you do that and monitor carefully. Come over the PZI forum and you will get on going help and advice.

Some people here have regulated their cats with Humulin. But it's harder on the cat and the human, and in many cats, not possible. PZI is milder, longer lasting and easier to work with.
Click to expand...

I don't have any more PZI left just a brand new bottle of Humulin-N. He is still on dry food as I just got him back today. I will be making the switch soon, I still haven't got the needed supplies as I wanted to make sure I got Shadow back first. I am headed to walmart tonight for sure so I will pickup the food and other supplies.

I think I will stay away from the Humulin-N. Will the vet let me take it back? I don't have any insulin for Shadow tonight and the vet is closed -- What should I do? If I open the Humulin-N I'm sure they will not let me return it.


Jenn & Baxter said:
His numbers are a little high, but you have to take the fact all those numbers where tested in a vet setting. Vet setting BG are always going to be higher because the cat is usually stressed which rise BG. Once Shadow is at home & gets settle down you could some of the numbers go down a little.

I'm a ProZinc user so of coarse I would say get back on ProZinc. I have only read bad things about Humulin N.

Keep in mind it takes a little bit to get settled into a dose. It doesn't happen over night.
Click to expand...

I'm sure shadow was very stressed and I know that will cause a spike in his BG. He seems happy to be home and doesn't look too bad.

I will be patient and consistent with his dosing and will follow all advice I am given..

Thanks for all the input guys! Here's to hoping Shadow gets better. :)
 
1to3na.jpg

I donated $40 to the forum guys. Hope it helps with the server costs and what-not.

Thanks.
 
You could get the testing down tonight, ditch the dry and see how his numbers look without insulin. Then take the Humulin back and tell the vet you want to use another insulin?

Donations really help - thanks!
 
I agree with Sue. Ditch the dry tonight. It's easier to transition to can food without insulin. If you transition to can food while giving insulin you have to do it slowly or you could increase chance for hypo. The can food could bring him down 100 points on its own.
If I could do this all over again (which i dont want to do) with what I know. I would have changed Baxters diet the second I found out he was FD. Then started insulin a week later. All while I was home testing. It would have given me a better idea of true BG numbers & could have dose occurdley. In the beginning I wasn't home testing. I was transitioning dry to canned food, adminster insulin blind. About 2 hours after a shot I noticed Baxter was walking strange & ran into the wall. I couldn't get ahold of the vet. It was late at night & all I had was a piece of paper telling me how to treat a hypo situtation. I stayed up all night with Baxter. It was scary. I will never know how low is BG got. He was diffently showing symptoms. Its because his body was coming down from the high carb dry with insulin.
I know it might be a little late to turn back & start low carb without insulin. So just slowly transition the can food if you are going to give insulin. I don't want to log on here & see a 911 by a post from you. It will make me sad like all of the 911 post.

Jenn & Baxter cat_pet_icon
 
I agree with the others about ditching the dry food and testing while she's temporarily off insulin--it's far easier than trying to do the diet change while on insulin.

I would ask your vet for a prescription for Lantus or Levemir, since the PZI is gone anyway--they have the best remission rates in cats. I'm attaching some articles for you to print out and give to your vet. If your vet won't write you the script, I would switch vets to one that is willing to work with you. Your vet may not necessarily be a bad vet, just behind in his research. Not many vets are versed in all of the recommended treatment guidelines for diabetic cats (the current guidelines just came out in 2009-2010)--what is important is that you you have a vet that is willing to work with you and is supportive of the information and education that you're seeking and providing him/her. I lucked out with Bandit's vet--she handed me a prescription for Lantus and a list of low carb, commercial canned foods in different price ranges, showed me how to home test with a human meter in her office and then sent me to the store to buy one. It wasn't until I showed up here a few months later that I realized my experience with my vet was unfortunately not the norm.

Here's a link to the AAHA diabetes guidelines: https://www.aahanet.org/PublicDocuments/AAHADiabetesGuidelines.pdf. See page 4 (218)--where it states the two recommended insulins are glargine (Lantus) and PZI. Humulin N is a faster acting insulin that works like the lente (vetsulin) insulin mentioned. Levemir is not mentioned, but it is a slow acting insulin that works the same way as Lantus. Cats' metabolisms are twice as fast as humans or dogs, so they do best on the slow insulins because they last a full 12 hrs in cats (Lantus and Levemir are considered 24hr insulins for humans). They also have much gentler curves, and are much, much safer for the cat.

Once you get your spreadsheet set up, you can come here for dosing advice. There are experienced, knowledgeable people in both the Lantus and PZI forums here who would be happy to help. My vet started me out in the right direction, but her dosing recommendations were way off (she was dosing Bandit like a dog), so I came here for dosing advice instead, until I understood the protocol and was able to make adjustments on my own. Bandit's been in remission for well over a year now, and he's healthier now than I think he's ever been.
 

Attachments

Bad news. I didn't give shadow his shot last night or this morning and took away the dry food and he just didn't look well. And then he vomitted on the floor so I ended up putting the dry food back down and giving him his insulin.

Any ideas/advice? It scared me how he's acting and how he puked, I'm sure it's because of not having his insulin.
 
I would return the Humulin and get a refund. You will find plenty of research on the internet and on this site that shows that Humulin N is currently considered a poor choice for cats, you could print that out and bring it with you for more "ammo". In the past, it was often the insulin of choice, so your vet might just be a bit out of date on the best treatment.

In layman's terms, the reason it is a poor choice is it comes on strong and doesn't last long so the cat his high numbers for much of the day with a possibility of a hypo or feeling yucky when the insulin hits. Consider how you feel when you drink a sugary soda on an empty stomach. Sugar high! Two hours later you might feel a crash... a foggy feeling, irritability, dizziness, lethargy. That's what it feels like when a strong insulin suddenly kicks in. Regardless of whether the blood sugar drops to 300 or 50, a huge drop will cause a diabetic to feel pretty awful. Then sometimes the liver panics and dumps sugar into the blood to compensate. Then more high numbers! This pattern won't help your cat feel better. Having a gentle insulin is like eating a low carb, high protein diet... blood sugar stays more constant and there is no sudden drop so the liver does not dump sugar. When the cat has both going for them, they can often heal enough to start producing insulin on their own.

I used PZI and it worked well for my cat. My cat would have around 8 hours of low numbers during each cycle. Lots of folks here like Lantus and Levemir which are even gentler. (I believe you can get these two from a human pharmacy if the vet doesn't have it). I would stick with one of those three.

I will second "wet food". It made a world of difference with my Scout. The day after I took away all dry food was the last day she needed insulin.

I know it's tough to choose to listen to "crazy cat people on the internet" over your vet, but the folks on here have done the research and have first hand experience caring for FD cats. Some of us are diabetics ourselves. My vet is awesome, and I trust her to diagnose my cat and recommend treatments... but for a chronic illness or if my cat is not improving on the treatment, I go home and the research myself. I've suggested alternate treatments to her before and she's been receptive to them. She was not up to date on FD care when Scout was diagnosed... but she certainly is now. :-)

Keep us posted!

Lori
 
BradB said:
Bad news. I didn't give shadow his shot last night or this morning and took away the dry food and he just didn't look well. And then he vomitted on the floor so I ended up putting the dry food back down and giving him his insulin.

Any ideas/advice? It scared me how he's acting and how he puked, I'm sure it's because of not having his insulin.
Click to expand...

Has he been tested for ketones, either by you or at the vet? Vomiting is not normally a sign of high blood sugar, but it can be a sign of diabetic ketoacidosis, which is a dangerous complication that arises from high blood sugar. If you're not testing for ketones, that should be your first priority. DKA can come on very suddenly and be deadly. You can pick up ketostix (urine test strips) at any drug store.

Dry food doesn't do anything to "settle" a cat's stomach, so taking away the dry food is not what caused the vomiting. And unless there is a complication like diabetic ketoacidosis, lack of insulin would not have caused vomiting either. Have you started testing him yet? Also, how much insulin did you give him? Humulin N is an insulin you especially don't want to overdose because of the fast drops. Any way you can ask for a script for a different insulin?

If you're going ahead with the N until you can get him on something else, you need to make sure you're testing before each shot, and 2 and 4 hrs into the cycle. N has a greater danger of hypoglycemia, so vigilance is necessary.
 
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