Cat in DKA but vet refusing to treat

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DCIN got back to me today. I sent them a message on Saturday and I know it was seen. All they offered was a suggestion for liver support. I know it was suggested so I thought you should know the result
They may also be rather unconvinced by the DKA diagnosis. And if it isn't DKA, it generally doesn't require hospitalization. I do agree she was very likely on the verge of a DKA, but I really think you caught it in time - her electrolytes just weren't far enough off. Borderline low potassium is pretty normal in a cat that hasn't been eating, and all the others were in normal range...and that's not something you see with a DKA cat. I would think the lack of appetite and liver issues were her main problem. I do wonder if she had an infection somewhere - the antibiotics seem to be helping her. And infection can raise glucose in a borderline diabetic.
 
Vet called. Inka’s liver values were worse. Bilirubin went up. He thinks it’s gallbladder. He feels she is diabetic but her Bs have been in the low to mid 200s. With all that is going on, he wants to wait on insulin or maybe glypizide he said. He called me three times today to discuss how he feels and what we should do. He wants her on a drug called Ursodiol (Actigall). Her strength has to be compounded but he was afraid for her to have to wait so he had some for a dog and cut it down so she would have a dose today. I called the compounding pharmacy and was going to have it overnighted but they consider tomorrow the first business day so it wouldn’t get here until Saturday. So I’m going to make a four hour round trip ride to get it.
The other vet also said there was a “ shadow” on her X-ray and it could be a mass or fluid. She wanted an ultrasound. He looked at it today and shook his head. It’s the cat’s full bladder she was looking at.
Inka’s potassium is low so he added a supplement. He is afraid the gallbladder is not draining so the ursodiol can help that.
Brought my other cat (Waddles)in to him. Diarrhea and vomited x2. She always has loose stool. Other office had seen her and tested her stool which was negative and they did nothing. He says IBD, gave her (Waddles) a steroid injection and metronidazole. Know what my charge was for today? $61.00.
We talked about giving her a few more days to see if she can turn around. I’m so angry that all of this could have been started last week.
I also have a newly diagnosed diabetic kitty(Mookie). Doing a curve on her today. Lantus insulin 1 unit twice a day. There hasn’t been a reading below 390 all day ( doing glucometer every two hours). Guess shrine the next one in to see him
 
If she has gallbladder issues, then ursodiol is the medication of choice for dealing with gallbladder "sludge". I would not do glipizide - it tends not to work well for cats and most of them need insulin eventually anyway. Plus, because it makes the pancreas work harder when it really needs to rest, it has a tendency to destroy any chance of remission that the cat had to begin with.

The other vet also said there was a “ shadow” on her X-ray and it could be a mass or fluid. She wanted an ultrasound. He looked at it today and shook his head. It’s the cat’s full bladder she was looking at.
Was the first vet actually qualified? Sorry, that's a little sarcastic, but to misdiagnose DKA, miss the gallbladder issue, and not know what a full bladder looks like on an X-Ray really isn't acceptable.

Inka’s potassium is low so he added a supplement.
Good idea. It's very likely from her lack of eating, but you can always stop the supplement later on if she doesn't need it. And diabetic cats do tend towards low potassium in a lot of cases.

Know what my charge was for today? $61.00.
That's awesome - exactly what you need. It makes it all so much easier when you're not having to worry about bills in the $100s every time.

We talked about giving her a few more days to see if she can turn around.
You may be able to do a short-term feeding tube for her if she's going to need assist-feeding for much longer. It does require a short anesthesia (around 15 minutes), but it really can be a game-changer for a cat that has no appetite.

Mookie very probably simply needs a little bit more Lantus. That's very normal with a newly-diagnosed diabetic. There's a calculation for starting dose, but that really is only a starting point - diabetes is great for providing you with a constantly moving target in terms of dose and glucose levels, so dosing often has to be adjusted fairly frequently.
 
I am syringe feeding Inka now. 20ccs three to four times a day. So she should be getting her food in. She has only vomited once since this all began and it was yesterday after being at the vet’s.
I’m hoping she will make it now that I’ve found a real vet.
I’m supposed to see the other one tomorrow with my CKD cat. She actually was good with her. The issue with switching vets with her is that she needs a medication every once in s whole ( darbepoetin) that no other vet carries because it is so expensive. Cost me around $75 a shot. It helps to manufacture red blood cells since the kidneys are not sending out the signal to the long bones to make RBCs. If I bought my own vial it is somewhere around $3500. I’m going to ask the dose she gets because there are a lot of different ones. But I am going to tell this vet face to face what I think of her and her skills. If Mushka needs another shot, I’ll ask the new vet to call and let me go there for the shot only.
Can you imagine that she didn’t know a bladder from fluid?
 
From the study on FD I was reading today, re:meds like glipizide...

“Oral hypoglycemics may be used in human type 2 diabetes patients with sufficient endogenous insulin secretion to maintain euglycemia without insulin therapy. Sulfonylureas and meglitinides stimulate insulin secretion from pancreatic β cells.82,83 However, the majority of diabetic cats have insufficient β-cell function to achieve good glycemic control using these alone.30,84Similarly, biguanides such as metformin require functional β cells and sufficient circulating insulin to be present if they are the sole therapy.85 In five newly diagnosed diabetic cats treated solely with metformin, only one cat had measurable serum insulin concentration pretreatment, and this was the only cat that achieved good glycemic control.86 While α-glucosidase inhibitors such as acarbose can slow intestinal glucose absorption and reduce peak postprandial glucose concentrations, they are minimally effective in cats eating multiple small meals.85,87 The trace element vanadium supplemented at 45 mg/cat/day improved glycemic control in diabetics treated with PZI insulin, with a mean insulin requirement of 3 U in vanadium-supplemented cats compared with 5 U in cats treated with PZI alone.88

Insulin treatment is associated with a higher probability of achieving glycemic control and eventual diabetic remission, compared to the sole use of oral hypoglycemic agents, and this continues to be the recommended treatment for diabetic cats.”
From here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6053045/

The whole article is good and may be nice to bring to your vet, but it sounds like you finally found a vet who has some sort of clue, at least on this one issue.
 
Not only will Glipizide do more damage than good, Inka's not in any condition for any part of her body to be 'forced' to do anything. Everything's in a very delicate balance. Insulin if it's needed...

Potassium - be sure you have blood work done again in 10 days to 2 weeks after starting a potassium supplement.
 
Thank you all. Inka is on two antibiotics, potassium, an herbal liver supplement, Ursodiol, I have Cerenia and mirtazapine to use, sq fluid twice a day, syringe feeding. I know what you are saying about the glypizide. He was just throwing out thoughts. I don’t want oral meds for her diabetes. Years ago I had two diabetic cat’s and I remember the vet saying they didn’t work. This guy is reasonable. He called me several times today to be sure she got all of her medications. And he’s not afraid to say what he thinks of the other vet ( and very colorfully too). He said she had a 50/50 chance but he’s seen worse get better. Clinically she doesn’t look that bad. Walking around as usual. Very feisty when getting meds and feedings. I hope she can make it and stabilize some. I’m going in for surgery next week and we are already trying to figure out a way to smuggle her in the hospital The new vet said she could stay with him if need be. I’m seeing the old vet tomorrow and I will be telling her exactwhat I think
 
Inka is on two antibiotics, potassium, an herbal liver supplement, Ursodiol...
At one point Alex was diagnosed with severe liver disease, but recovered beautifully. It took some work, but I give a whole lot of credit to Ursodiol, Denamarin, and food! Yes, food. We used to have a saying around here: food is like medicine for the liver. The goal was for Alex to consume her normal amount of daily calories plus half of that every day... and if she wanted more, she got it!

In case it hasn't been mentioned, not all vets seem to be aware of this:

"There is a possibility that chronic use of ursodeoxycholic acid in cats may deplete the body of the essential amino acid taurine, thus necessitating dietary supplementation with this amino acid."

Veterinary Partner - Ursodiol (Actigall)

As a precaution, we were told to mix 1/8 teaspoon Now Foods Pure Taurine Powder in her food twice a day. Adding it to her food never seemed to faze her. We had the Ursodiol compounded into a chicken flavored liquid and gave while feeding.

To make syringe feeding easier we blended cat food (no water) into a smooth and creamy mousse. Syringe feeding the mousse-like texture eliminated all the mess in my kitchen and on the cat... something both of us appreciated! She could also lick a quarter-sized amount off the back of my hand or a larger amount put on a saucer and held up to her mouth when the mixture wasn't so runny as when water is blended into the food. She seemed to like being able to lick food rather than me 'forcing' a messy slurry into her mouth... one that ended up all over the place. I also gave 5 mL water via syringe in-between each 10 mL of food.

Wishing Inka a swift recovery! You've got this!
 
He thinks it’s gallbladder. How is your friend’s cat?
Much better. Initially he was anemic and his liver values we're really bad. When they did an ultrasound, they found he had gallstones and nodules on his liver. The biopsy for the nodules came back as an infection and not cancer. Once they started him on multiple antibiotics along with some other meds, he started improving quickly. The ultrasound they did the following week showed the nodules were shrinking and his gallbladder looked much better. He still has the gallstones, but they don't seem to be aggravating his gallbladder as much. Liver values also improved.
 
I am incredibly impressed by this new vet of yours. I love my vet but she does not call me to check in like that. It sounds like he will be the one to really work with you on what you need!!! :D
 
At one point Alex was diagnosed with severe liver disease, but recovered beautifully. It took some work, but I give a whole lot of credit to Ursodiol, Denamarin, and food! Yes, food. We used to have a saying around here: food is like medicine for the liver. The goal was for Alex to consume her normal amount of daily calories plus half of that every day... and if she wanted more, she got it!

In case it hasn't been mentioned, not all vets seem to be aware of this:

"There is a possibility that chronic use of ursodeoxycholic acid in cats may deplete the body of the essential amino acid taurine, thus necessitating dietary supplementation with this amino acid."

Veterinary Partner - Ursodiol (Actigall)

As a precaution, we were told to mix 1/8 teaspoon Now Foods Pure Taurine Powder in her food twice a day. Adding it to her food never seemed to faze her. We had the Ursodiol compounded into a chicken flavored liquid and gave while feeding.

To make syringe feeding easier we blended cat food (no water) into a smooth and creamy mousse. Syringe feeding the mousse-like texture eliminated all the mess in my kitchen and on the cat... something both of us appreciated! She could also lick a quarter-sized amount off the back of my hand or a larger amount put on a saucer and held up to her mouth when the mixture wasn't so runny as when water is blended into the food. She seemed to like being able to lick food rather than me 'forcing' a messy slurry into her mouth... one that ended up all over the place. I also gave 5 mL water via syringe in-between each 10 mL of food.

Wishing Inka a swift recovery! You've got this!
I just did a four hour round trip drive to a compound ing pharmacy to get the Ursodiol. The vet was worried and didn’t want to wait to start it. He actually had two pills in his office from a dog patient. He said Inka needed a smaller dose of it and ordered it but in the meantime he patiently cut the pill he had into fours so Inka would at least get one dose. ( I think I love this guy...he tries to act tough and moves fast but you can see he really cares)The ones I picked up are 30 mg Ursodiol Tiny Tabs. Given twice a day with food. I’m not sure how long he intends for her to be on it. I actually took it five years ago when I had bariatric surgery to prevent gallstones. Took it for six months. Where do I purchase the taurine powder? I’m leery of ordering things just anywhere on the internet for my animals as there are a lot of counterfeit products. I don’t have to tell or ask him everything. You can’t overdose the cat on taurine, can you? I’m soooo glad you told me. I really appreciate it. Please let me know where you got it so I can order it?
That is a great idea for the food too. Do you use a hand held blender?
Another question I have....I’m feeding her A/D critical care cat food. Is that too fatty with gallbladder issues? I just thought of that tonight.
I’m finding it difficult trying to figure out how to get all this stuff into her. The antibiotics I give together. That metronidazole is nasty stuff for an already nauseous cat. Then the potassium gel and the Ursodiol. Plus my three other cat’s.
Thank you again! I will get that powder as soon as you let me know where.
You guys are great!!
 
I just did a four hour round trip drive to a compound ing pharmacy to get the Ursodiol. The vet was worried and didn’t want to wait to start it. He actually had two pills in his office from a dog patient. He said Inka needed a smaller dose of it and ordered it but in the meantime he patiently cut the pill he had into fours so Inka would at least get one dose. ( I think I love this guy...he tries to act tough and moves fast but you can see he really cares)The ones I picked up are 30 mg Ursodiol Tiny Tabs. Given twice a day with food. I’m not sure how long he intends for her to be on it.
Nice! This new vet sounds like a keeper! :cool:
Where do I purchase the taurine powder? I’m leery of ordering things just anywhere on the internet for my animals as there are a lot of counterfeit products. I don’t have to tell or ask him everything. You can’t overdose the cat on taurine, can you? I’m soooo glad you told me. I really appreciate it. Please let me know where you got it so I can order it?
I purchased the taurine online: https://www.iherb.com/pr/now-foods-taurine-powder-8-oz-227-g/7425?at=0.

I've purchased supplements from iHerb.com for years, trust them, and their service is fast. Years ago, Dr. Lisa (the vet who put together the latest food chart listed at the top of the Health Forum) suggested iHerb.com for supplements for those making her raw cat food recipe. However, you can also find taurine at most Health Food stores or places like GNC. The important thing to look for is whether it's "pure"... no other ingredients besides the taurine powder itself. My understanding is one cannot overdose a cat on Taurine. The cat will pee out the excess.
Do you use a hand held blender?
No, I haven't tried a handheld blender. I have two small countertop blenders: a Ninja and a Hamilton beach. I just grab the one that's easiest to reach in the cabinet at the time. I think blending with a hand held blender may become tedious because it takes awhile to get to that mousse like texture, but maybe worth a try of you already have one.
Another question I have....I’m feeding her A/D critical care cat food. Is that too fatty with gallbladder issues? I just thought of that tonight.
Good question for your vet!
All I can tell you is at the time I was using Wellness Turkey or Chicken. Both have/had a higher fat content than others, but Alex did well with them. If Inka is tolerating the food without any signs of discomfort, she'll probably be fine with it, but like I said... ask your vet.
I’m finding it difficult trying to figure out how to get all this stuff into her. The antibiotics I give together. That metronidazole is nasty stuff for an already nauseous cat. Then the potassium gel and the Ursodiol. Plus my three other cat’s.
I hear ya! Once I figured out what to give when I made up a chart so I could follow it every day. The chart helped me keep things straight.
Thank you again! I will get that powder as soon as you let me know where.
You guys are great!!
You're welcome. Happy to help when I can... just as those who helped me when I needed it. :)
 
Update on Inka:
There is no improvement on Inka. She is still not eating. Not doing much but lying around. Jaundice is no better. Spoke to the vet this morning. He feels she is at the point of no return. We are doing one more blood test to see where her values are. Please send prayers that we do what is in her best interest.
If you remember, I had said that the old vet was good for my olde kitty in CKD. She brought her out of a crisis recently and that is how I actually came to start going to her. I had an appointment with her set up for yesterday and decided to keep it. When I went in, she took Mushka’s blood and asked when I was bringing Inka in. I reminded her that I brought Inka to another vet. She became defensive and when Mushka’s bloods came out, they were not good. BUN up, creatinine up. She said “well, she’s 19”. I asked what we can do and she said nothing. I requested her records and she sees the newvet tomorrow. I have a call out to the practice manager and a letter to the licensing board. To me that is plain refusal of care. Shame on me for even seeing her again.
Having major surgery this week and am hoping everyone can just be stable until that’s over.
 
Hi Sharon,
I am so very sorry Inka is not feeling better.
My cat had jaundice as well as fatty liver suspicion after her DKA.
We couldn't pay for tests to pin the problem and asked how treatment of either - fatty liver , triaditis and jaundice could be altered if we had the tests done. It turned out that the treatment would be just the same - mainly food, water , AB if needed, insulin. Go figure.

Ducia too was just laying around, hiding. We fed via E-tube which was her life savior.
I was wondering if some more food would benefit Inka.
Maybe making it 20ml slurry x 5 or 6 times / 24 h might help - if she tolerates of course.
Food = medicine for cats in so many cases.

Your new vet is a treasure! I hope together you and him will find the best solution for Inka whatever it might be.

Sending you many healing vines for Inka.
@SharonKurtz
 
Thank you so much. I will up her feedings. What did you feed yours? I asked about the A/D being high in fat but he said to just get food into her. He told me to give up but I asked for bloods again. They drew the blood before. Will have results tomorrow. Is your baby still with you
 
@SharonKurtz
What did you feed yours?
Friskies Pate one and a half and later one and a quarter of 5.5oz can a day, all in the 60+% Fat. Dr. Pierson wrote that in general cats do well on fatty diets (better than carby diets for sure). Ducia was 6.5lb, had 100ml LRS SQF SID, and later 75 ml SID. ETA: fed via tube equal portions day and night.
Is your baby still with you
absolutely, she says "Hi" and sends Inka healing vines.
3 out 5 vets hinted she won;t make it: Before.jpg
but she did pull thru:After6Weeks.jpg
 
Update on Inka
Inka is not doing well. More lethargic. Still not eating on her own.
Had blood drawn yesterday and values are not good. I was ready to leave the house with Mushka to bring to the vet and he called saying I should bring Inka to be euthanized. I couldn’t just rush and put her in a carrier, so I figured I would wait and talk to him. I’m starting to think I hate all vets. This guy is good but he is very fast and goes from room to room and comes back, leaves, etc. when I got there he asked where Inka was and I told him I couldn’t rush that decision. He told me the cat was suffering.
He examined Mushka and told me I would have to make decisions on both cat’s. Mushka’s BUN is over 130 and creatinine is 10. He said she is at the end. I told him she was acting normal and eating. Her values have been that high in the past and she still enjoys walking around and sitting with us in the couch. She’s 19 years old. So he there was nothing he could do for either cat. I asked about the ondansetron and he said no. I have some here from my last surgery. Ondansetron HCL 4 mg. I would like to try that instead of Cerenia. She is not vomiting. Is this the correct medication and what dose could she have? I asked about pain meds and he gave me Buprenex ink but he doesn’t want me to inject it but rub it on her gums. He doesn’t believe in people doing these injections. Been doing it many years.
Liver values better. On 6/5 AST was 530, yesterday was 436
ALT on 6/5 was 806, yesterday was 691
Her bilirubin is up from14.9 to 22
Her potassium is down from 3.0 to 2.2
Glucose was 301. Stool no insulin
He told me to double the potassium dose
Everything else the same.
He said her gallbladder is the issue.
I don’t know what to think anymore
I don’t want to be cruel either. What do you think?
 
I don't think you are doing anything wrong, sweetheart. Just not very many people that I can see on the board today so far and probably none that would be able answer your questions about medications. I wish I could.
As far as making the decision to either help your lovely kitties cross over, or to keep trying, that is just unanswerable by anyone else. And it's heartbreaking that you are having to consider the eventually. I can only go by my own experiences and when a kitty was suffering and there was no other treatment or alternative, then it was time. I wish you clarity, peace and comfort with whatever you decide, when you decide. Many hugs and much love as you negotiate these troubled waters. :bighug::bighug::bighug:

@Marje and Gracie might be able to shed some light on the lab tests and medications.
 
Dear @SharonKurtz
:bighug::bighug::bighug:
I am so sorry about your furkids
:bighug::bighug:

it is a tough one. No one would like their little ones to suffer and the vet's opinion has to be taken into consideration. But not just blindly followed. Not just yet if you have doubts. And I understand how recently you met Inka but still you are the one who fed her, nursed her - listen to your heart now. It must be so overwelmed with all the pain you , Inka and Mushka are going thru. I know you were not long together...and you may not read the signs well yet but I am not there to see her or "talk" to her... Nor am I able to read the tests properly to tell you what is going on. DUcia's liver values were off but improved, so did the bullirubin but my Ducia was 8 years old and all of these was her first ever illness.
 
Sharon,
This whole situation just sucks. There's NO ONE ELSE but YOU and INKA and YOU and MUSHKA that get to make that decision. Your vet has a right to his opinion but that's ALL it is, his OPINION. Sit down quietly with each one, look into each other's eyes and ask...you'll know. Even tho' you've not been with Inka long, your souls are already connected. Then follow that answer. If they're tired of fighting, you'll know. If one is ready and the other still wants to fight, you'll know.

HUGS and hugs and hugs along with continued thoughts and prayers,
 
I feel like I can’t breathe. Inka is just down. Mushka is her old cranky self at 19.
I find this situation so bizarre as I had my gallbladder out in March, my husband in April and now Inka. Isn’t that weird? Wish surgery would be a fix for her but they charge over $5,000 for it and she has other things going on, so I don’t believe she would survive it. I’m having major surgery this week. If she turns around a little I will cancel to care for her.
Is there any way on this site to private message someone?
Is there anyone out there that has seen this and the cat got better? I feel helpless
 
Is there any way on this site to private message someone?

In browser, very top right of page, you see your UserID Inbox Alerts. Click on Inbox, allows you to create a message. It will give you a list of User IDs when you type the first 2-3 characters of a name.

I know nothing about and haven't had experience with anything 'gallbladder' so I'm absolutely NO help there. I can't even think of anyone that does have experience with that... :(

HUGS and hugs and right there with you as close as virtually possible...
 
Best of luck with your upcoming surgery, and wishing you an easy and speedy recovery. I am so sorry about Inka :bighug:
 
In browser, very top right of page, you see your UserID Inbox Alerts. Click on Inbox, allows you to create a message. It will give you a list of User IDs when you type the first 2-3 characters of a name.

I know nothing about and haven't had experience with anything 'gallbladder' so I'm absolutely NO help there. I can't even think of anyone that does have experience with that... :(

HUGS and hugs and right there with you as close as virtually possible...
Thank you
 
I’m not sure if I’m doing something wrong here but I’m not seeing any replies.
Hi this is Paul and Nowak with Elvis the cat. I would do anything and everything to never have my baby put down. There is a homeopathic company called homeoanimal.com I would give them a call and see what they think and explain what is going on. At first when you call the automated person sounds kind of happy and cheesy but when you actually talked to the one of the experts there that always answers the phone but you will have to wait just a tiny bit, and they are very knowledgeable. I have talked to them before about other people wanting information on their cats it can't hurt and I really do think that they will have a remedy for you.
 
I'm sorry for your loss & sending prayers your way. Peace to Inka as she crosses the Rainbow Bridge & is free from her illness :rb_icon:cat_wings>o
 
Thank you all for your help. Inka crosses the Rainbow Bridge today. She was a gentle soul and will be sorely missed
Sorry but I haven't been on here for a while. I am so sorry to hear about Inka but she is in heaven now and you will see her again one day !
 
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