Can I have another set of eyes for Asher?

Status
Not open for further replies.

donnahc

Very Active Member
Mornin kids ~O) ~O) ~O)
Need extra coffee again today. I am wondering if you guys have any thoughts on dose for the cat who doesn’t seem to go by any rules :shock: We have gone from 3.6-ish units before his dental now down to as low as 1.2.

After his dental on 1/25/12, we also had implemented his diet as the vet recommended. We cut his original food and treats by 1/3. He gets exactly the same thing every day. It was noticeable right away with less food he needs less insulin.

Once he got all the drugs out of his system, we settled on 2.2 units bid for about 7 days. Then one evening he was too low to shoot at +12, we waited and shot a reduced dose. We lowered to 2 units after that, and he again was going low mid cycle. We can bring him up with food but can't do that if we are out working, and more food defeats a diet. And at night we don't sleep.

So, after we started to try to lower him more, he started bouncing in the mornings from going low at night. Now we have these nasty 3 and 400s that scare the crap out of me. To get off this roller coaster I took him down to 1.2 and 1u, but then he had crap numbers all day and still a 300 in the morning so I raised again. Maybe I paniced and didn’t stay low long enough.

Yesterday 2 units helped get rid of the 300 start we had, and I lowered dose for the evening since his evening pre-shoot was lower. He had a great overnight cycle. We watched but did not feed, he came up on his own. But then a 400 this morning.

So I am wondering what you think we should do. He never was a cat that bounced before really. We can try to hold a dose which worked for us before but doesn’t seem to now (and what would that dose be?). We can shoot a sliding scale. We can start low and go up (but having him above the renal threshold scares me a **** ton).

I am frustrated and sleep deprived so I was hoping you might be able to see something clearer than us. Thanks in advance for any suggestions. I have emailed his vet too to see what he thinks. SS is current.
 
He is being difficult, Donna. You are already shooting a bit of a sliding scale, adjusting dose to each number. You certainly could have Robin fix you up one. That would help a little with your preshot anguish.

The nicest pm cycle you've had lately was 2/12 when you went down to one unit overnight. He stayed in decent numbers and didn't bounce. Another possibility would be to plan to shoot lower every night - even lower than the number suggests in anticipation of his dropping?

Let's see what others think. Carl doesn't have Internet yet but is watching via phone. Maybe he will have an idea. (you know how he loves to analyze things.....).
 
Thanks Sue. This dude has never been easy, but this time he has me stumped. I think all data before this last dental is out the window. All seems to have changed.
 
Hi Donna!
My first thought when reading this (have not seen all the earlier threads), was "screw the diet"!
Is the goal for him to shed some pounds? Can you give us his feeding schedule? I am thinking maybe there is some room to compromise on either amount or timing so you can try to shape his curves and let yourselves sleep at night. Maybe there are foods that are low carb and lower fat? It may be a way to avoid a different dose decision every preshot, or it might give you more consistent AM and PM PS numbers. So, what is on asher's menu these days?
Carl
 
Asher was 21 lbs at the last weigh in at his recent dental. Vet says for a variety of reasons he needs to loose some weight. I agree. He is a big dude. When people come to the house they exclaim, “holy crap your cats are huge!” So to be honest they are overweight but not obese, they are larger cats too, bigger heads, long bodies, etc. If they were 12 lbs they would look very sick. They are not dainty. But they do need to loose some weight. Vet said the way to do this is reduce food by 1/3.

So now I only feed him half of a 3.5 ounce (small) can of Blue Buffalo Wilderness Chicken twice daily before his shots. (Before diet he got 3/4 can each meal.) This food is between 1 and 2% carbs. Lowest I could find. He eats exactly the same thing every day. We police when the cats eat so Asher doesn’t steal his brother’s food. In between meals he gets boiled chicken treats: after testing, and mid day as a snack.This is usually once overnight around 2-3 am. He gets one 1/4 “ piece after a test and maybe 3 pieces for a snack. If I test a lot I don’t give a treat every time, I just make a fuss of him and pet him etc. He or his brother eat no other food.

He has been on this food since last Feb I think. Close to that. He was dx’ed in Jan of 2011 and we switched to this food from the prescription “diabetic" 14% carbs crap soon after.
 
Crap, so nothing has really changed except for portion size at shot time. So much for that idea....

Let me look for something else...
 
I’m just about in freak out mode. Terrible day.

+ 6 364
+7 315
+11 327

This on 2 units this morning. 2 units brought him down yesterday and he went low on 1.4 last night and 3,4, and 5 nights ago.
I don’t get it.
:cry:
 
Makes me hungry just reading about how much you cut back. And I didn't realize Asher was such a full-figured dude, but oh so handsome.
Alex has always bounced around. As I told myself at the first of the year, if he seems to feel OK, I'm trying to not let the numbers consume me.
 
Bright side
you have a shootable pmps.
carl
 
Hi Donna,
I have to say Asher and Shakes both have me stumped
Asher is bouncing but my question is, sometimes you shoot the bounce
sometimes you dont, maybe pick a dose and hold, bounce or no bounce...
confused_cat

I just dont understand why you have decreased (i know because of the dental)
but there was no need to increase again...that is the part that is perplexing me...

If it were me I think I would reduce tonight, and if he stays in the 300's then I think I would raise
Actually maybe I will do that tonight...anyway
that is the only thing I can think of

I wish I had some answers, but since this meter mes, Shakes has not been the same
 
I think I have a different cat since this last dental. Asher never was bouncy and if he did rarely bounce it was one cycle and done. Our answer always was high numbers? More insulin. And that worked. Once we found a good dose we held it for quite some time. And that worked.

Now I have tried not shooting the bounce and shooting the bounce and it doesn’t seem to clear either way. I have only raised the dose when he had a high number or numbers to cause me to do so. And today was the worst day ever since he’s been dx’ed last year. It was like he had no insulin. And I know we didn’t have a fur shot. And we have a newer bottle of insulin that has been kept at 45 degrees and never dropped or shook. (can you tell I am tearing my hair out?)

This going low mid cycle is new too since all the changes. I was psyched, but now it makes it even harder to know what to shoot.

The food reduction is a factor too. Both cats are not happy with it but Asher is a go with the flow dude so he is the most mellow about it. I can tell they are hungry tho. I just don’t know if that’s the right thing to do too, but how can I know anything for sure.

So tonight we had a crappy 362 pmps and I shot 2 units because I have not a clue what to do, and I had to pick something. My inclination was to go higher, but then I see him hitting 69 the other night on 1.4 and I just couldn’t go higher.

A good cry and a glass of wine might be in order. But I have work to get done tonight so maybe not. :? :cry: Thanks for letting me vent @-)
 
I wish I had some answers for you, but there is no pattern,
I am so sorry
but the one thing I KNOW you are right about is that I think we both
need some wine (or whine)
and a good cry....
hang in there and vent away cause I am feelin it too!
 
Hello Donna,
perhaps the decrease in food is a dependent variable (dependent on the amount of time elapsed since the decrease as well as how the individual cat reacts). Since many cats get stressed out over vet visits and show it with zooming BGs, why not over feeling hungry? Is there any reliable general info on such a connection? Is there any way you'd feel comfortable decreasing Asher's food by 1/6, or whatever smaller amount, than the vet's recommended 1/3?

I'm in the midst of combining two households into one (do I ever need a drink or two!) so may be unable to respond since one of the locations isn't on the internet. Wish you and Asher a peaceful night.
All my best,
Sophie
 
Okay, first wine and deep breaths. We will figure this out. Meanwhile, you know how to deal with lows and his highs are outweighed by some decent numbers.

Is there a chance that he is reacting to the different dosing? Has he been a kitty that could take a while to settle into a dose? He certainly did well on pretty consistent dosing for a while? If so, how about going back to the most recent dose that gave you reasonable numbers and keep at it a while. Even if he bounces around.

I think increasing the food has possibilities too, but wonder if the insulin wouldn't be the easiest adjustment first.
 
He always was better on a consistent dose. Any idea what I should try to hold considering recent numbers? Should I start with 2? or 1.6?

Also, I have a real vibe this food change has a lot to do with this too. Sophie may have a point. Remember Sue, when I added his mid night snack? His numbers seemed to get a little better then. But I know I have to deal with one variable at a time.
 
Hi Donna,

I don't know if this exactly pertains, since Clark is OTJ...but, I'm thinking that late, or greatly decreased, feedings mean something. I was late with Clarky's food one morning. I was stalling Marilyn, since her pre-shot was too low to shoot, and since I test & feed them at the same time, he was "stalled" too. Anyway, I ended up testing and feeding him 1.75 hours late...and his BG was through the roof.

I actually meant to post these questions, but never got around to it. I wanted to know if an OTJ cat's liver can kick-in when the BG "feels" too low from lack of food...OR, (as mentioned in other replies), maybe he was stressed since he was so hungry. He was letting me know that he was simply going to "starve to death"...but I was diligently sticking to my schedule of feeding them at the same time. Whatever the phenomenon was, nowadays, if I'm stalling Marilyn, I always make sure that Clark is tested and fed at his usual time.

If you want to see it in action...look at Clark's 1/11/12 AMBG on his SS. I was so freaked out, I tested him three times that morning. At 1.75 hours late, and before food, he was a shocking 167 (not exactly an OTJ number). An hour after food he was 179...and an hour later...all was back to normal at 109. It's interesting, if nothing else...

I hope it all gets worked out for Asher. Maybe decreasing his food slowly, a little at a time, to give his stomach time to "shrink" in-between decreases, will remove some of the "hunger stress"? And if it isn't hunger stress...at least it would remove one of the variables to the puzzle. Just a thought.

Deb
 
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. I think they are all good ones!

We have a better start this morning. Amps was 229 which is a huge relief from yesterday's terrible numbers. Overnight I gave 3 boiled chicken treats, not one like usual. Could this be related?

I shot 1.4 this morning and I am going to try to hold that as long as possible. I will feed about the same but increase slightly. We will see where that takes us. You'll be the first to know ;)

As always, thanks for your kindness and suggestions. We appreciate you all more than I can describe.

Forgive spelling since I have a job today and am typing with my fat fingers on a phone this morning.
 
I have realized food plays a huge part with Poopy and his BGs. When I have removed food prior to a PS, it's higher. Weird, right? It's as if the food and insulin maintain a balance and if one is out of whack or absent, the scale tips.

If the goal is to reduce Asher's intake - what about focusing on calories instead of amount? Lowering the calorie intake instead of amount might help Asher feel full, as if he's eating enough, but lower calories so he's still cutting back? (Where is that head scratching icon?) Worth a thought anyway. :-D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top