Buddy's # +500 - down to 111 ???

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I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could look at Buddy's ss and let me know what I'm doing wrong. He's remaining in the high numbers; when he was showing a glimmer of hope for it being time to lower his dose, I did, then he shot up to over 500. Then this morning his preshot # was 111 (because I increased last night's dose a tad). I held off shooting. I fed him and tested two hours later and the number was 182. I gave him 1.5 U at that time (1/2 usual dose / two hours beyond normal schedule). Is a little something better than nothing? I don't know. This is all so confusing and frustrating not knowing if I'm helping or hurting my Buddy.
What dose should I be giving Buddy?
 
Hi Bel, I'm not sure I can be all that helpful with dosing but I will be happy to look at your chart and see if anything pops out at me ok.
brb
 
Ok, that was quick. The first thing that pops out at me is this...am I seeing several shots given without a pre shot test?
That is one becuase aside from the fact that you may have a mid cycle number, a lot can happen in 2 or 3 hours.
And the fact that you NEVER really want to shoot Buddy blindly. Please don't allow that habit to form. It can be deadly. Not to mention you will never be able to track what the numbers mean if you do this.
And I'm afraid tht without a few more routine tests...inbetween amps and pmps there is no real way to register his progress or reasons for lack thereof.
Are you short of time...or strips or anything?
Sometimes we can help.
 
Thanks for chiming in, Lori. I asked Bel to post over here for dosing advice. Bel, I also sent some pms to other people to come take a look.

For this morning, I think you made a good call. When others come on, they will be able to help you with future dosing.
 
Hi Bel,

I am sorry you are having such trouble with the levemir dosing...it does take a bit of a learing curve to catch onto dosing a long duration insulin when you have been using a shorter duration insulin. I came form Vetsulin, so I understand!

This link viewtopic.php?f=10&t=682 will give you some general understanding and is very important to read through.

One thing to know about Lev is that we dose it by the lowest number in the cycle, not the highest.

It looks like hometesting might be a bit of a challenge right now, so it is understandable that BG tests are sporadic and few. As you gain confindence and Buddy realizes you are boss and BG testing is part of this whole plan, I hope you will get more mid cycle checks so we can see how low Buddy goes.

Remember, the lowest number is most important b/c it is the number we use to pick a proper dose. I think for most lev users nadir is between +7 and +9? My Paul-Kyle's is +12...crazy!

Another thing that is important to understand is the shed theory. I hope someone will post a link to understand it better, but until then- basically it is generally thought that a shot you giev on Tuesday morning will not neccessarily show it effects Tuesday or Tuesday evening, but rather Wednesday moring or later.

That said, it is possible the yellows you got on 2/10 AM could have been a result of LOWERING the dose several cycles before on 2-07 PM. The same could be possible for the blues today being a result of a lowered shot on 2/10 AM.

Also, Lev really very much works best with consistentcy...that is to say, pick a dose and stay there for a minimum of 6 cycles- UNLESS the BG's are dangeroulsly low, then you must decrease dose immediately.

Otherwise, wait the 6 cycles, getting pre shot tests and a spot check or tow when possible through the cycle, then conduct a curve where you take one or two cycles and test every 2 or 3 hours...even every 4 if you have to and then do the opposite hours the folowing day to fill in the blanks from the day before.

Then when you do change the dpse, we suggest it is changed by .25 or .5 depending on circumstances....once you get closer to proper dose you will chnage dose by .1u! But that is for down the road.

The others will be along as they can...hang in there- we will help you as best we can to get things on track for you!

(((hugs)))
 
On Thursday I wrote this in your thread on Health which asked if some cats don't respond to Levemir:

Most likely Buddy's is doing better because the 1U was not enough. 3U could very well be doing a good job at getting him down off the ledge and helping him feel better, but if it's too much Buddy could get in to trouble and experience a low.

I see he certainly does respond to Levemir, but what you are seeing with going from 500 to 111 is an example of exactly what I meant in that thread. Although he did not "get in to trouble" with a hypoglycemic low, he experienced a dramatic drop in BG which usually leads to what is called rebound, which is not bad, just very frustrating to deal with. Please read about that here: http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound

In our experience, the most experienced users of Levemir are on FDMB and the German Diabetes Katzen forum (although that is in German). Yes, that's right - here. Very few vets in the US even know about its use in cats. And even fewer know how to manage it. Levemir cannot be dosed like fast acting insulins, such as Humulin N or even Prozinc. Unfortunately my assumption is that your vet thinks it can be. That is not to diss your vet, he/she may simply not have access to the best information available on using Levemir.

Buddy is probably a good candidate for the Tilly Protocol. It was created by members of the German forum and has been medically published. Please read through it here: http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm

The Tilly protocol is probably the best instruction for you and your vet to learn how to dose Levemir to achieve the best results. And as Lori said, testing before each and every shot is mandatory, as are mid cycle tests as often as you can at this stage. As Melissa said, I would move the time of your mid cycle checks to +8 or after. +5 is too early, although it is sometimes helpful to get tests even at +1, +2 or +3 so you can learn when Levemir starts to work.

500s are usually red flags and may indicate a rebound has taken place perhaps the cycle before. Rebound may be caused by sudden drops in blood glucose and not necessarily to low numbers.

I cannot stress enough that in a cat without other health complications, such as acromegaly, going from 1U to 3U on Levemir is, frankly, dangerous. And to do so without regular BG tests is even more dangerous. The 111 12 hours after the previous shot is a good indication he is getting too much insulin on 3U.

I'm not sure how you feel about staying with the 1.5U, but that is my advise at this point. Although it's higher than I normally recommend, he did not seem to have much movement on 1U and you said he seems to have done better at the 3U dose. However the 111 is an indication that the shed Melissa mentioned is full and spilled over, meaning 3U is too much.

We have to start at a lower dose to work up as the Tilly protocol mentions. Starting lower fills the shed gradually rather than suddenly. And yes it may take a while to get to the spill over point, which is why you did not see the 111 a week or more ago. He did not have the 111 simply because you increased that evening's dose "a tad," as you described. It was a few days in the making.

To reassure you about the numbers you are seeing - although hyperglycemia is not ideal over time, in the short term it is not as harmful to cats as it is to humans. Gandalf has had way more 300s in his diabetic lifetime than most humans could tolerate, but he is doing OK for a cat who's been diabetic for 6 years and will be 18 this spring. I don't like to see them, as I know they are harmful to other organs in the long term, but they are not as life threatening as hypoglycemia can be. High numbers are going to happen, especially in the beginning. You are doing the best you can for him and the hometesting part is very important, so the most help you can be to him now is to get on a regular schedule with testing. Then we can help you even more! As the numbers are sporadic now it's very difficult to tell how he's doing. I am just glad that you tested when you got the 111! Hopefully you are seeing how important it is.

Please do some reading and get back to us with more questions. Sorry this section was quiet today. I was at work all day and others probably had plans as well. Thank you Melissa and Lori for helping out and to Sue for alerting my via PM to your post here!
 
Bel, I have to second the idea that not testing before shots is dangerous. I will admit that I dosed Beau on vetsulin for over 6 months while not testing. I didn't know any better, but it scares me to think of him getting up to 7u without me even knowing what his BG was before I shot. I know testing can be difficult with some cats, but I have found that it you "power through it" it will get easier and the cat will become more accepting. When I got Jeddie, he was having none of it. I had to "burrito" him in a heavy fleece blanket and hold him down with my elbows. This was after I blithely tried to test him and got a nice, deep bite for my troubles. Now it is no big deal. Sometimes he fusses, but he lets me test and give his shot so he can get his treat. Treats afterward are so important.

What I see on your SS is that the dose was raised too fast. It would have been best to hold 1.25u for 6 cycles getting preshot tests and a few spot checks, then move to 1.5u and do the same thing. Then 1.75u, then 2u, etc. always letting the dose settle at least 3 days and up to 5 or even 7 days. Lev doesn't work by changing the dose in response to the each preshot number as has been mentioned.

I also think that staying at 1.5u for now is a good idea. I think this is especially important since you are having some testing troubles. The higher numbers are less dangerous than a prolonged hypo on a long acting insulin - it is just better to raise the dose in very small steps. The vet should never have suggested that you go up to 3u in one giant step.

I hear your frustration and I think that you will be less frustrated if you take it more slowly. The numbers will not swing like they are now if you drop back to 1.5u and let it settle for 3-5 days before deciding to raise again.
 
Sheila & Beau & Jeddie said:
Bel, I have to second the idea that not testing before shots is dangerous. I will admit that I dosed Beau on vetsulin for over 6 months while not testing. I didn't know any better, but it scares me to think of him getting up to 7u without me even knowing what his BG was before I shot. I know testing can be difficult with some cats, but I have found that it you "power through it" it will get easier and the cat will become more accepting. When I got Jeddie, he was having none of it. I had to "burrito" him in a heavy fleece blanket and hold him down with my elbows. This was after I blithely tried to test him and got a nice, deep bite for my troubles. Now it is no big deal. Sometimes he fusses, but he lets me test and give his shot so he can get his treat. Treats afterward are so important.

What I see on your SS is that the dose was raised too fast. It would have been best to hold 1.25u for 6 cycles getting preshot tests and a few spot checks, then move to 1.5u and do the same thing. Then 1.75u, then 2u, etc. always letting the dose settle at least 3 days and up to 5 or even 7 days. Lev doesn't work by changing the dose in response to the each preshot number as has been mentioned.

I also think that staying at 1.5u for now is a good idea. I think this is especially important since you are having some testing troubles. The higher numbers are less dangerous than a prolonged hypo on a long acting insulin - it is just better to raise the dose in very small steps. The vet should never have suggested that you go up to 3u in one giant step.

Thank you all so very much for your advice ... believe me .... it's all making a lot more sense now. I thought the shots took care of the "next" 12 hours. I have so much to learn and I thank you all for helping us thru this.
I hear your frustration and I think that you will be less frustrated if you take it more slowly. The numbers will not swing like they are now if you drop back to 1.5u and let it settle for 3-5 days before deciding to raise again.
 
Let's see if I can separate this out for you, Bel. This message board formatting takes a bit to figure out too!
Bel & Buddy said:
Thank you all so very much for your advice ... believe me .... it's all making a lot more sense now. I thought the shots took care of the "next" 12 hours. I have so much to learn and I thank you all for helping us thru this.

You're very welcome! Thank you for being willing to learn. It's been an uphill battle for a lot of us here, even with the help of the board, but it gets easier.
 
Hi Bel,

I just came to check on how you had been doing the past few days and found this post.

The 111 does say that Buddy reacts, and can react well, to Levemir.

I do sense that the responses you got are right. That Buddy's dose is too high rather than too low. The consensus seems to be 1.5U, and then to hold it for at least 6 cycles.

I am glad to see that you are testing Buddy more frequently. Good boy Buddy!!

Venita
 
Hi Bel, welcome to the Levemir forum.

I was wondering what time zone you are in, or more specifically where you are located?

When you get a chance could you fill out a profile? The instructions are here:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17766

Good for you for getting a spreadsheet set up. :)

I know the testing is difficult but it seems to be coming along by the looks of your spreadsheet. I hope it is getting easier anyway.

Can you possibly get a before bed test in so we can get a little better picture of how the evening shot is working?

Glad you got him off the dry food. :)
 
i noticed your SS and sorry cant help with that, but i am confident you will get all the help you need from others more experienced than me .. just keep posting.it does take time and patience,hang in there.
 
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