? Buddy /9 AMPS 265; +2-240; +4-231 even after dose increase??

Kelly and Buddy

Kelly and Buddy

Member Since 2018
Well, this is certainly not what I expected to see this morning so I am hoping some of you experts can offer some insight.

For anyone that reads this, but didn't see my post yesterday, here are a few events to consider:

1) Yesterday, after lunch, Buddy through up a small amount of clear fluid tinged with red blood. Acting normal and still has ravenous appetite. Buddy also threw up a hair ball a few days before (which is not common for him) but no blood in that. Spoke with vet. She said it is quite possible the hairball had irritated him and caused a hairball. Started him on pepcid AC and carafate 3 times a day. No further vomiting since yesterday. Fingers crossed that it is nothing serious.

2) Because Buddy is such a food scavenger, we have tried to keep any possible food sources away (which is difficult). Yesterday, I noticed his head in the fruit bowl (which has mainly been reduced to an onion bowl thanks to Buddy) and when I got close enough, I saw that an old banana (as in, pretty much black) had somehow gone unnoticed and Buddy was chowing down; HALF of the banana was gone - peel and all. I assume he'd eaten all that at one time because he rarely leaves any food that he finds).

3) Last night, Buddy puked again - but it was mainly just a pile of lovely black banana peel. I did not see blood.

4) Ironically, as I am typing this, Buddy pukes again - this time a small hairball. Fortunately - NO blood!! I hope that's a good sign.

5) Other than all the issues described above, Buddy is eating fine and acting normal.

So, keeping all of this in mind and the fact that 2 shots after a dose increase from .25 - .5 his numbers are still not very good, so many things are going through my mind. Could his insulin be bad (not very old and still clear)? Does he need to build up a large depot? Is all of this because of the hairball and banana situation? And my biggest concern- is there something more significant going on (thus, the blood) that is causing his BG to be high.

Sorry for the long post but I'm hoping some of you have some insight. Quite frankly, I'm looking for some hope because I feel like we're moving in the wrong direction at this point. :(

I appreciate any and all comments, advice, and thoughts. I would be so lost without this group.

@Bobbie And Bubba @Sienne and Gabby (GA) @LizzieInTexas @Chris & China @Wendy&Neko
 
  • Also worth noting: "Many cats will occasionally react to an increased dose with increased BGs - within the first 2 to 3 days after an increase, usually lasting for less than 24 hours. Nobody really knows what the reason for this phenomenon is (perhaps a "panicky liver"?) - hold the dose and ignore the fluctuations." http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm.Here in the Lantus, Basaglar, and Levemir Insulin Support Group (ISG), we've affectionately dubbed this unexplained phenomenon "New Dose Wonkiness" (NDW).
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/the-basics-new-to-the-group-start-here.18139/
 
LizzieInTexas said:
  • Also worth noting: "Many cats will occasionally react to an increased dose with increased BGs - within the first 2 to 3 days after an increase, usually lasting for less than 24 hours. Nobody really knows what the reason for this phenomenon is (perhaps a "panicky liver"?) - hold the dose and ignore the fluctuations." http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm.Here in the Lantus, Basaglar, and Levemir Insulin Support Group (ISG), we've affectionately dubbed this unexplained phenomenon "New Dose Wonkiness" (NDW).
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/the-basics-new-to-the-group-start-here.18139/
Click to expand...

Oh, I hope this IS NDW. What a perfect name for it. LOL.
 
Also, besides the NDW, the depot takes about 4 cycles to fill in.

A banana and the peels?? Buddy!!! You are determined to get into contraband :eek:

His cycle last night was quite flat as is today's so far. Sometimes a flat yellow cycle can be an indicator that a lower cycle will follow in the next cycle or two.

As far as the insulin goes, if it is still clear and not cloudy and you have kept it in the refrigerator, it is doubtful that it is the insulin. Usually it is the cat not the insulin.

Keep in mind that Buddy has only been diabetic for about 4 months and it's not too unusual that regulation hasn't happened yet.

Have you thought of giving Egg Yolk Powder for the hairball problem? I started giving Bubba it and oh what a difference. I think when we first started on it he had one more small one and then they stopped. It also helps with gastrointestinal motility and helps to prevent dementia in older cats, supports healthy skin and shiny coat I get it from :

www.foodfurlife.com It is only about 14 dollars for a bag that last me for two cats about 2-3 months.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Also, besides the NDW, the depot takes about 4 cycles to fill in.

A banana and the peels?? Buddy!!! You are determined to get into contraband :eek:

His cycle last night was quite flat as is today's so far. Sometimes a flat yellow cycle can be an indicator that a lower cycle will follow in the next cycle or two.

As far as the insulin goes, if it is still clear and not cloudy and you have kept it in the refrigerator, it is doubtful that it is the insulin. Usually it is the cat not the insulin.

Keep in mind that Buddy has only been diabetic for about 4 months and it's not too unusual that regulation hasn't happened yet.

Have you thought of giving Egg Yolk Powder for the hairball problem? I started giving Bubba it and oh what a difference. I think when we first started on it he had one more small one and then they stopped. It also helps with gastrointestinal motility and helps to prevent dementia in older cats, supports healthy skin and shiny coat I get it from :

www.foodfurlife.com It is only about 14 dollars for a bag that last me for two cats about 2-3 months.
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He is the contraband master!!! Yes, the flat cycle is unusual for him and I hope you're right about the drop. Fingers crossed. You are right about the short length of time since his diagnosis (although it feels like eternity). I need to keep that in perspective! :)

The insulin has been in the fridge but was left out overnight twice (but I read somewhere that that shouldn't be a big deal). It is still clear.

The Egg Yolk Powder sounds awesome and he would benefit from all the things you listed but he did show a small sensitivity to eggs. I wonder if that would be a bad idea for him? Definitely something I will consider.
 
Kelly and Buddy said:
The Egg Yolk Powder sounds awesome and he would benefit from all the things you listed but he did show a small sensitivity to eggs. I wonder if that would be a bad idea for him? Definitely something I will consider
Click to expand...
Go onto their website, it is chock full of great information and they might even address that about sensitivity to egg. It could be just the whites.... but, I am not sure about that.
 
I was surprised to see that Buddy's post-banana numbers weren't higher. Bananas have a high glycemic index -- lots of sugar!

I think part of the issue is the uneven dosing. Every time you change a dose, you need to allow the depot to catch up with the change. If you are shooting different amounts at AM and PM, the depot never catches up. You really need to pick a dose and stick with it so you can truly gauge how effective the dose actually is.

According to the information in your signature, Buddy is allergic to egg. You may want to re-think egg yolk powder. FWIW, vomiting is typically a sign of some other problem. It's one thing if your cat ate something like banana peels. It may be an indication of an acid stomach in which case, more frequent meals may help.

 
I shot foodfurlife an email about the allergy to egg and using the egg yolk powder. I seem to remember reading somewhere that kitties with egg allergies is to the whole egg but the yolk powder can be tolerated. Maybe it was @Marje and Gracie that discussed this before. Or maybe I dreamed it.....
 
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Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
I was surprised to see that Buddy's post-banana numbers weren't higher. Bananas have a high glycemic index -- lots of sugar!

I think part of the issue is the uneven dosing. Every time you change a dose, you need to allow the depot to catch up with the change. If you are shooting different amounts at AM and PM, the depot never catches up. You really need to pick a dose and stick with it so you can truly gauge how effective the dose actually is.

According to the information in your signature, Buddy is allergic to egg. You may want to re-think egg yolk powder. FWIW, vomiting is typically a sign of some other problem. It's one thing if your cat ate something like banana peels. It may be an indication of an acid stomach in which case, more frequent meals may help.
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Hi Sienne,

I was a bit surprised (and relieved) that the banana didn't raise the numbers also! I'm hoping maybe the increased insulin helped to balance that??? I don't typically shoot different amounts at AM and PM but, after increasing to only .3 (from .25), I realized it was probably way too small of an increase with the high numbers. I don't like to increase during the week because of work. I will definitely hold the .5 until next week and HOPE that I start seeing blues more regularly.

I mentioned the egg allergy to Bobbie earlier and she brought up the possibility that he may only be allergic to the egg white. I also see that she was kind enough to email the company so I will hold off on that until I hear what they have to say.

I do worry about the vomiting and any potential underlying causes. Two of the three times all had hairballs so I'm hoping that's all it is. Currently, I typically feed him 6 times a day. Do you think that 's still not enough? I had such bad luck the 5 meal timed feeder that I ended up buying the 2 meal feeder so it would be hard for me to get more that 6 meals in a day.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
I shot foodfurlife an email about the allergy to egg and using the egg yolk powder. I seem to remember reading somewhere that kitties with egg allergies is to the whole egg but the yolk powder can be tolerated. Maybe it was @Marje and Gracie that discussed this before. Or maybe I dreamed it.....
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Bobbie, thank you so much for taking the time to contact the company. That was very kind of you! :) I did some reading and, from what I read, it seems like cats can be allergic to one or the other, or both. In humans, egg whites are the most common allergen but I did not see if one is the more common allergen for cats. I will be curious to hear what Foodfurlife has to say. Interesting company; I browsed their website and they have some great information there!
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
I shot foodfurlife an email about the allergy to egg and using the egg yolk powder. I seem to remember reading somewhere that kitties with egg allergies is to the whole egg but the yolk powder can be tolerated. Maybe it was @Marje and Gracie that discussed this before. Or maybe I dreamed it.....
Click to expand...
So sorry but it wasn’t me. Great question but I don’t know the answer to it. I do know FFL’s egg yolk powder is an excellent product!
 
If the vomiting is due to a acid stomach, you may need to feed more often. The issue is whether that's the cause. Usually, if vomiting is from acid, you'd see white/clear foamy vomit.

I didn't have luck with the 5 compartment feeder either. You could always use a total of two, 2-compartment feeders.
 
Oh Buddy...a banana? Luci says she prefers chocolates and bread...well a cookie or cake will do nicely too...and butter...ok, probably a fully ripe banana might not be all that bad to try...these kids and the stuff they want to eat, huh? Sorry to hear about the puking...hope that settles down soon...Hope he starts to respond to the dose increase soon too...:bighug::bighug:
 
Hey Kelly well the Foodfurlife answered my email all ready! This company has the best customer service!

Here is what I asked and their response below:

Comment
Hey y'all,
A question about egg yolk powder for a friend interested in using it for hairballs but says her kitty has a slight allergy to eggs. Is it possible that without the whites the cat would be okay with the egg yolk powder?
Bobbie Pyle






Food Fur Life Customer Service
12:52 AM (9 hours ago)

to me

Hi Bobbie,

Thanks for contacting us. I did some research - and it's possible! Of course there are allergens in both the yolk and the white, but most are in the white.

If your friend wants to try it, best to start very small and go very slow while increasing.

Hope this helps,

Laurie
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
If the vomiting is due to a acid stomach, you may need to feed more often. The issue is whether that's the cause. Usually, if vomiting is from acid, you'd see white/clear foamy vomit.

I didn't have luck with the 5 compartment feeder either. You could always use a total of two, 2-compartment feeders.
Click to expand...

The day he had the blood in his vomit, it reminded me of saliva. Kind of clear but I don't recall it being very foamy. The other times he has vomited, no real foam, but he does keep throwing small clumps of hair. He had another small one tonight - right after I gave the carafate. I might have to consider a 2nd feeder. Good idea.
 
Sue and Luci said:
Oh Buddy...a banana? Luci says she prefers chocolates and bread...well a cookie or cake will do nicely too...and butter...ok, probably a fully ripe banana might not be all that bad to try...these kids and the stuff they want to eat, huh? Sorry to hear about the puking...hope that settles down soon...Hope he starts to respond to the dose increase soon too...:bighug::bighug:
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He's crazy. He has started trying to climb bookshelves looking for food. He's getting worse and it is a constant worry. He acts like he is starving to death :( .
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Hey Kelly well the Foodfurlife answered my email all ready! This company has the best customer service!

Here is what I asked and their response below:

Comment
Hey y'all,
A question about egg yolk powder for a friend interested in using it for hairballs but says her kitty has a slight allergy to eggs. Is it possible that without the whites the cat would be okay with the egg yolk powder?
Bobbie Pyle






Food Fur Life Customer Service
12:52 AM (9 hours ago)

to me

Hi Bobbie,

Thanks for contacting us. I did some research - and it's possible! Of course there are allergens in both the yolk and the white, but most are in the white.

If your friend wants to try it, best to start very small and go very slow while increasing.

Hope this helps,

Laurie
Click to expand...

Thanks, Bobbie (and how funny that the lady that responded is also Bobbie). If I can get him back on track, I may give it a try. If his diarrhea comes back, I'll back off.
 
Not feeling very encouraged with today's numbers. I'm growing to hate the color purple. :(

For all of you, I have one more question. Buddy acts like he is starving all the time despite eating enough food for a cat twice his size. He has become almost aggressive over food, grabbing at food like a maniac. As I read through some of the Sticky notes last night, someone (and it might have been @Bobbie And Bubba ) commented that some cats do better on slightly higher carb food - to help them feel fuller- than a really low carb food. I hate to switch back to Friskies but, at this point, it breaks my heart to feel like he is so miserable and hungry all the time.

Also, @Bobbie And Bubba, did you mention that your very carb sensitive cat actually did better on a slightly higher carb diet because it allowed you to be more consistent with dosing? I read a lot last night and then went to bed and was trying to process it all (and consequently could not sleep) and it might have been someone else.

I just want to see Buddy feel satisfied for even a few minutes. His food obsession and acting like he's starving never stops - even after he's just eaten. I hope it's just because he isn't regulated and we will eventually get there.
 
Oh my gosh...I just caught Buddy on the counter with his head stuck in the toaster oven!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead: . (And, no, it wasn't on and there was no food inside...thankfully). We need a "shaking my head" emoji, LOL.
 
Oh Kelly!!!! I am laughing but it is not funny, I know, been there , done that with Bubba. When he gets into better numbers he will stopped being so starved. But, another thing I am thinking is that if you aren't doing it, please be checking for ketones as being starving is one of the things I noticed while Bubba was throwing ketones.

It might have been me that said that some kitties do better with a little higher carb food than real low carb food but that wasn't Bubba as he was and is very carb sensitive. With you noticing that Buddy's numbers raised with Friskies I don't know that Buddy will be one of those cats either and could be more like Bubba and be very carb sensitive.

Question: How much does he weigh? And how much are you feeding him? Wondering if he just needs some more calories to help him feel full.



Kelly and Buddy said:
funny that the lady that responded is also Bobbie
Click to expand...
She was Laurie from the Foodfurlife company. The egg yolk powder isn't for diarrhea, it's more for hairball control and gut motility ( constipation)

ETA: If you can weigh him tonight to make sure he hasn't lost any weight. You can weigh you and him together on a scales, then just weigh yourself and then subtract the difference. It's better if you had a baby scales to weight him , but the above method will give you a basic idea.
 
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Bobbie And Bubba said:
Oh Kelly!!!! I am laughing but it is not funny, I know, been there , done that with Bubba. When he gets into better numbers he will stopped being so starved. But, another thing I am thinking is that if you aren't doing it, please be checking for ketones as being starving is one of the things I noticed while Bubba was throwing ketones.

It might have been me that said that some kitties do better with a little higher carb food than real low carb food but that wasn't Bubba as he was and is very carb sensitive. With you noticing that Buddy's numbers raised with Friskies I don't know that Buddy will be one of those cats either and could be more like Bubba and be very carb sensitive.

Question: How much does he weigh? And how much are you feeding him? Wondering if he just needs some more calories to help him feel full.




She was Laurie from the Foodfurlife company. The egg yolk powder isn't for diarrhea, it's more for hairball control and gut motility ( constipation)

ETA: If you can weigh him tonight to make sure he hasn't lost any weight. You can weigh you and him together on a scales, then just weigh yourself and then subtract the difference. It's better if you had a baby scales to weight him , but the above method will give you a basic idea.
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To be honest, I haven't checked for ketones in some time. He was always negative and then I just got away from it. I don't have anymore strips but will get some tomorrow. Thanks for the reminder; I should have thought of that too.

Buddy used to weigh in about 15 pounds but dropped to about 8.5 pounds when the diabetes hit. He gets 4 cans of FF each day; according to the can and what I've read on here, that is more than he needs daily. I thought about feeding him more but was told that might only make things worse. I am curious to hear your thoughts about this. I haven't weighed him for a couple of days but it does appear that he's lost about 5 ounces - assuming my scale is accurate - but I don't always feel that it is consistent. That is troubling! I am wondering if he needs to go to the vet to get checked again to see if something else is going on. Again, I will definitely check his ketones tomorrow.

On a positive note, he has dropped almost 170 points since his PM shot; that's the biggest drop he's had in a long time. Oh how I would love to see a reading in blue tonight! C'mon, Buddy, just 15 more...

Oh yeah, I have no idea how I misread your signature as Laurie's. LOL. I knew you had recommended it for Buddy's hairballs; my comment about diarrhea was because he has had a long history of it and the vet felt it was due to food allergies. I'm assuming it might flare back up if he's allergic and the diarrhea will show back up.
 
Here is a formula for how much food to feed cats. Using it, consider the age of cat and activity level. Since he is underweight, you want to use his ideal weight in the formula. Pre diabetes , was 15 lbs a good weight for him or should he have weighed less ? If 15 was a good weight, use that in this formula.

weight X 13.5 + 70 = calories a day.

Let's use 15 lbs as an example. 15 X 13.5= 202.50 + 70= 272 a day.

The FF cans chicken and turkey are around 98 /can so he would be getting about 392 calories a day if you are feeding him 4 cans a day and he should be gaining weight not losing. So, please check for ketones and if your vet didn't do a thyroid panel his last visit, it might be worth a vet visit and have them do a full thyroid screening because kitties will lose weight if they become hyper T and they will want to eat non-stop. I went through that with my civvie. Also, vomiting is one of the symptoms of hyper T. Buddy has been throwing up hairballs, but when there isn't a hairball present, it should probably be investigated. Another symptom of hyper T is sometimes their personality changes, as in they might get real clingy or needy......it happened with my Forrest and sometimes they get more vocal.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
Here is a formula for how much food to feed cats. Using it, consider the age of cat and activity level. Since he is underweight, you want to use his ideal weight in the formula. Pre diabetes , was 15 lbs a good weight for him or should he have weighed less ? If 15 was a good weight, use that in this formula.

weight X 13.5 + 70 = calories a day.

Let's use 15 lbs as an example. 15 X 13.5= 202.50 + 70= 272 a day.

The FF cans chicken and turkey are around 98 /can so he would be getting about 392 calories a day if you are feeding him 4 cans a day and he should be gaining weight not losing. So, please check for ketones and if your vet didn't do a thyroid panel his last visit, it might be worth a vet visit and have them do a full thyroid screening because kitties will lose weight if they become hyper T and they will want to eat non-stop. I went through that with my civvie. Also, vomiting is one of the symptoms of hyper T. Buddy has been throwing up hairballs, but when there isn't a hairball present, it should probably be investigated. Another symptom of hyper T is sometimes their personality changes, as in they might get real clingy or needy......it happened with my Forrest and sometimes they get more vocal.
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He might have been a wee bit chubby but nothing significant. He is just a big cat but never fat. He has been checked twice for hyperthyroid since his diagnosis in April and was in an acceptable range both times. The last check was a couple of months ago so I suppose it could have changed. He is definitely losing weight, eating like a horse, and more vocal. He has been on the same dose of thyroid medicine for years so I would not be super surprised if it changed.

I'll check for ketones tomorrow and then contact my vet about doing another blood check. Thanks again for all your advice. I've said it before but I'll say it again - it means so much to know someone else "gets it" and is willing to listen, empathize, and offer support!! :)
 
Bobbi's calculations seem on point. I do think weighing Buddy is the way to go. If he's not putting on weight with the amount of food he's getting, you may need to be giving him more food. Alternatively, giving him a higher calorie food may help. In addition, spreading out his meals may help him be less hungry over the course of the day.

 
I am so confused and frustrated with what's happening with Buddy. An almost 200 point jump between am and pm shot? A decent drop at +2 (after pm shot) and now at +4 a jump back into the 300s already. I just don't understand why there is suddenly no pattern - at least not one that I see.

I FINALLY got a urine sample about 10 minutes ago. I tested twice and there is a very small color change - placing him somewhere between "negative" and "trace" - and I would call it closer to negative but slightly darker. Is that a reason for concern? At what point do I get worried?

I am already dreading BG checks tomorrow.
 
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