BUD AMPS 395 0.75u +7 261 PMPS 150 Wot now?
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Joanna & Bix (GA)
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What a nice PS! Does suggest the 0.75 could have been too high, with the better PS than mid-cycle #. I probably would have gone with 0.4 this shot, but 0.2 also seems reasonable. It's a great opportunity for data collection - if things just go higher this cycle, then you know 0.2 was too low on this PS. If you get another perfect PS in +12, then you stay with this dose. It's all good! :mrgreen: This cycle may have a little extra "oomph" to it coming off the 0.75, so if you get good results this cycle but then stay with the dose and lose the good results, that'll be a possible explanation. But we'll see where this one goes. Have a nice evening!!!
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Anonymous
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i hate to disagree but i don't think the dose was too high, i think kitty hits a very late nadar and then hangs around there.
if the dose was too high 7+ would'nt be where it was and certainly pmps would have gone up if kitty were a zoomer. this kitty really deserves extra attention as she does not seem to be a zoomer, and possibly has double dips indicating a pancreas trying to work it out. i think the .2 or .4 both would have been fine. the more testing on this sugar baby the better as we don't have her figured out and i do have a very good feeling about her.
if the dose was too high 7+ would'nt be where it was and certainly pmps would have gone up if kitty were a zoomer. this kitty really deserves extra attention as she does not seem to be a zoomer, and possibly has double dips indicating a pancreas trying to work it out. i think the .2 or .4 both would have been fine. the more testing on this sugar baby the better as we don't have her figured out and i do have a very good feeling about her.
Gator & H (GA)
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Here's my $0.02:
If Beth is going to stay on anything like a 12/12, then .75u at that time was too much as evidenced by the large drop in PSs. I don't think the rubber banding is doing any good [from overshooting then having to undershoot]. If Beth commits to the 12/12 [or approximate] then the sooner the rubber banding is over and things can be kept consistently low then the sooner the kitty can be consistently in "healing ranges." Green can come too from consistently low numbers - not just every 3 cycles or so that the cat decides to come out of the highs and the dose is too much. And I do not think any greens happened today. IMHO not all cats need big deltas. To be a zoomer the cat does not need to zoom at +10 or +11 - they can zoom at +15 or later. I don't see any double dips but I don't doubt there is P action going on. P action alone does not remission make.
If I were in Beth's shoes tonight I probably would have shot a .2u too. Maybe a wait a test situation too to make sure the numbers were rising. But & Lori & Joanna are right a .4u probably would have been fine too.
If it were in the sitch of the .6u, after the no action of the .6 I would have upped to .65 perhaps immediately or more likely after 3 cycles. If no action on .65 after 3 cycles then up again to .7. We really don't know what the minimum responsive dose [the dose that will at least hold the PSs equal] is at this point.
If Beth is going to stay on anything like a 12/12, then .75u at that time was too much as evidenced by the large drop in PSs. I don't think the rubber banding is doing any good [from overshooting then having to undershoot]. If Beth commits to the 12/12 [or approximate] then the sooner the rubber banding is over and things can be kept consistently low then the sooner the kitty can be consistently in "healing ranges." Green can come too from consistently low numbers - not just every 3 cycles or so that the cat decides to come out of the highs and the dose is too much. And I do not think any greens happened today. IMHO not all cats need big deltas. To be a zoomer the cat does not need to zoom at +10 or +11 - they can zoom at +15 or later. I don't see any double dips but I don't doubt there is P action going on. P action alone does not remission make.
If I were in Beth's shoes tonight I probably would have shot a .2u too. Maybe a wait a test situation too to make sure the numbers were rising. But & Lori & Joanna are right a .4u probably would have been fine too.
If it were in the sitch of the .6u, after the no action of the .6 I would have upped to .65 perhaps immediately or more likely after 3 cycles. If no action on .65 after 3 cycles then up again to .7. We really don't know what the minimum responsive dose [the dose that will at least hold the PSs equal] is at this point.
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Anonymous
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gator how can you be sure that pmps was insulin induced when her nadar was so high? are you suspecting that he low of the day was at +12
Gator & H (GA)
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The nadir [that we know of] was at +12 of 150.
The way to test if there were no other lower points would be the next time she's up there and .75u is given to make sure to get some more mid-cycles.
Besides P action I'm almost wondering about food intake too - but not much of a serious thought. Beth have you noticed any fluctuations in the food intake over the past couple days or does she consistently eat the same amount per day? Is day intake different than night intake? I doubt a difference between night and day because the drops seem to happen on AMPS AND PMPS. And she always has food available right? She never runs out or if so only for very short periods - like maybe less than an hour or two?
It's probably just P action and cat wanting to come out of the highs after getting up there.
The way to test if there were no other lower points would be the next time she's up there and .75u is given to make sure to get some more mid-cycles.
Besides P action I'm almost wondering about food intake too - but not much of a serious thought. Beth have you noticed any fluctuations in the food intake over the past couple days or does she consistently eat the same amount per day? Is day intake different than night intake? I doubt a difference between night and day because the drops seem to happen on AMPS AND PMPS. And she always has food available right? She never runs out or if so only for very short periods - like maybe less than an hour or two?
It's probably just P action and cat wanting to come out of the highs after getting up there.
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Anonymous
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well that is the latest nadar ever. if that was the nadar it would seem another 12 hours could pass before shooting. does'nt sit right to me that her +12 was insulin nadar.
this will be interesting kitty to follow.
this will be interesting kitty to follow.
Joanna & Bix (GA)
Very Active Member
Just to clarify where I'm coming from, I thought it was a standard PZI pattern that when the +12 is lower than the mid-cycle (i.e. approx "normal" nadir or later), that *can* (not necessarily always) be a sign that the dose is too high. (?) Initially I didn't think 0.75 is too much, but then I when I looked at some of the % drops, like on 12/18 around 77%, that, combined with some apparent late drops to lower PSs, made me think the dose might be just a hair too high.
Late nadirs to me are generally always going to be in the mystery category. Could be dose was too high, could be pancreas action, could be a cat with a typically late nadir (though I don't think we see that here consistently, or very often with PZI, so I tend not to think that's the explanation in most cases), or who knows what freaky reason - eating, illness, etc.
So IMO late drops are a cue to lower the dose a hair and see what happens. If the #s go higher, then you know to raise it back up.
All of that aside, what does look clear to me in the recent cycles is that 0.2 is too low a dose on a 150 - great data to have gotten that mid-cycle test in! So I would try 0.4 next time on a 150, and I would try something more like 0.6 on the higher PSs, to see if that gives a gentler drop, or alternately an earlier nadir and clear U-curve. Might not, it might be that the 0.75 is what's needed, could even be a mini-BAM dose and by giving it, she is staying out of getting stuck in higher #s. Hard to say really without trying a slightly lower dose and seeing what happens.
Just my 2c. :mrgreen: Beth I hope you are hanging in there OK during our debates! Feel free to jump in and ask questions, or tell us to shut up :lol: . Our goal is to help, so hopefully we are doing that! :?:
Late nadirs to me are generally always going to be in the mystery category. Could be dose was too high, could be pancreas action, could be a cat with a typically late nadir (though I don't think we see that here consistently, or very often with PZI, so I tend not to think that's the explanation in most cases), or who knows what freaky reason - eating, illness, etc.
So IMO late drops are a cue to lower the dose a hair and see what happens. If the #s go higher, then you know to raise it back up.
All of that aside, what does look clear to me in the recent cycles is that 0.2 is too low a dose on a 150 - great data to have gotten that mid-cycle test in! So I would try 0.4 next time on a 150, and I would try something more like 0.6 on the higher PSs, to see if that gives a gentler drop, or alternately an earlier nadir and clear U-curve. Might not, it might be that the 0.75 is what's needed, could even be a mini-BAM dose and by giving it, she is staying out of getting stuck in higher #s. Hard to say really without trying a slightly lower dose and seeing what happens.
Just my 2c. :mrgreen: Beth I hope you are hanging in there OK during our debates! Feel free to jump in and ask questions, or tell us to shut up :lol: . Our goal is to help, so hopefully we are doing that! :?:
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Anonymous
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can someone help me understand how a lower ps would indicate too high a dose? i can only see that being the case if kitty dropped so low on mid cycle that climbing his way back up still left him low at next ps. however this kitty does a nice low dip to his next ps which is why i don't think the dose is to high but something else, and i don't know yet what something else is but i have a hard time seeing this particular drop as being a case of too high a dose.
someone enlighten me please?
someone enlighten me please?
Joanna & Bix (GA)
Very Active Member
I have always thought of it as a little liver-resistence holding the #s higher until the insulin is past peak and somehow their body knows that now it is safe to accept and utilize the insulin. That's pretty much though the little story in my head to explain it :lol: as opposed to scientific explanation. Mostly, I recall it explained to me early on as a typical PZI pattern - similar to an inverse curve - that a late drop to a lower PS can be a sign the dose is too high. I suppose it's time to do some digging :YMSIGH: for a better explanation. Maybe tomorrow.... I-)
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Anonymous
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that's a cute little image of how it works joanna :lol: , really liked that. but i just cannot see it...to me it's a p working with an insulin to creat a nice long lasting blue until the p is done helping. at +14, and even then her +16 was only 10 bg's higher.
this is just a very cooperative p.
that's the cartoon in my head.
this is just a very cooperative p.
that's the cartoon in my head.
Gator & H (GA)
Very Active Member
BC this is the way it worked for H [not that every cat is H but...]. It also seemed to work that way for Squamee. Admittedly these are two very special needs kitties [both on 12/12] not headed for remish but...lori and tom said:
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