Borderline BG #'s and OTJ question

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Chris & Tucker

Chris & Tucker

Member Since 2012
Is there any kind of protocal for our borderline BG# kitties? With Fitzel and now Muffin, I see the numbers are so close to "normal", yet require a "drop" of insulin to be at their best, or bring them a bit down?
Is there anything we can do, other than the diet, to help in these cases? Or are some kitties just hardwired to live at higher #s?
What is the highest bg# range that we can still consider normal enough, not to resume or use insulin?
Does anyone know the % of kitties that relapse back to needing insulin?
There seem to be a bunch of borderline BG# kitties, and probably many "beans" are or will have these questions.... nailbite_smile
 
120 is the upper limit of 'normal' but I would think that some cats would go along ok being a little outside of that. The thing you want to watch out for is an upward trend in the numbers.

I know some people use herbal remedies to assist. I don't know how effective they are and sorry I don't know exactly what but it might be something you could look into.
 
I don't know if anyone keeps track of kitties who fall out of remission. In some cases, this happens due to illness (e.g., a UTI or other infection, the need for steriod treatment), a well intentioned family member who is "helping" and gives the FD cat dry food, or the need for a dental. These are cats who are probably more likely to get back into remission.

I think it's helpful to understand that once a diabetic always a diabetic. When a cat is OTJ, that cat is a diet controlled diabetic. The cat is still diabetic, albeit in remission; s/he is not cured. If you look at the condition from this perspective, a cat needing a drop or two of insulin may make greater sense. It's not an issues of "hardwired" (to me that means neurological or other brain-based reason). There are just some cats whose pancreas is more damaged or the beta cells perform inconsistently due to diabetes-related damage.

When someone comes back with a question about resuming insulin because their cat is at the "borderline," we will often adopt a wait-and-see approach. There could be stressors or contraband in the mix and giving a couple of days to see if numbers come back down can be to the cat's advantage. There are also cats who historically, would have swings in their numbers (e.g., Barbara's Tuffy), likely due to stress, yet remain OTJ.
 
There's individual variation and the complication that different meters give different results - those kitties might read in the normal zone on a different meter.

Speaking from my recent experience with Salem - he was in exactly that situation, on a microdose and getting nadirs within normal but preshots just above. I changed to a TRUEresult meter, which is highly rated but considered unacceptable here because it tends to read low. I didn't find out about that until Salem was in his OTJ trial. After much testing when I started using it I had determined the meter reads about 10 to 20 points lower than my OneTouch or FreeStyle meters, at least in the normal/near-normal range so I continued using it with the mental reservation that I'd assume he was actually a bit higher. Anyway, he passed the OTJ trial with a maximum reading of 100, which I translate to 110 - 120, still acceptable. And he's maintained since then with readings mostly in the 60's (translation: 70's to 80's) and no trending upwards so far.

Salem also tends to have higher readings in the morning before breakfast, and in the evenings before dinner until I started feeding three times a day. For quite some time before his OTJ I had noticed he'd come down to normal range after a meal whether he got insulin or not. Maybe that should be considered as a factor in determining OTJ-eligible status - whether injecting that microdose of insulin is really making a significant difference.
 
Camille's point is well taken. You need to consider naturally occurring phenomena such as "dawn effect" when looking at AMPS/AMBG numbers. It's also why we urge that during an OTJ trial that frequent, small meals are fed. In addition, if you see a less than desirable number, feeding and retesting in a few hours can tell you if the pancreas is working.
 
Hi Chris!

You'll get another ECID-answer from me, I'm afraid :mrgreen: Karre's running about 15-20 points higher on average now than he did during his second OTJ-period. He was higher by the same amount when he was back on insulin, too. Now, he'll throw in a few numbers above 120 (but under 150), but his pancreas always brings him back down so far - so we're just watching and seeing how he does.

Fingers remain crossed for Tucker!
Hugs
Jane
 
The last 2 days, Tucker has been "meatloafing" a bit more than normal. He also ate some of Sophies "Meow Mix Pate Toppers" the other day, when my back was turned. When I checked his BG early yesterday afternoon, it was 220! nailbite_smile One hour later, it was 120. Various checks during the rest of the day he ranged up and down between 90 and 140. Today is ranging between 110 and 140 .
It makes me feel helpless that I can't really do anything. His appetite is good. I guess I'll just have to keep a watch for some other possible cause.....
I'm not sure, but his chin might be a bit more distended or slightly swolen. (he never lets me touch his mouth) And keep testing......
 
You need to consider naturally occurring phenomena such as "dawn effect" when looking at AMPS/AMBG numbers.
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Sienne.... What is this effect?
I've also wondered about feeding a cat in remission, weight gain and BG#s. Tucker put 2 pounds back on (from 10 to 12), and looks great. I free feed him and Sophie. Usually there is some food on their plate at all times. Sophie lost weight (20 to 15) in the 2 months.
 
Hi Chris!

I can't really offer advice, but I did want to say thank you for starting this thread! This is very informative! I appreciate hearing the advice from LLers on this topic.

Thanks everyone for sharing!
 
Dawn effect is when you see higher numbers in the AM vs. other times of day. It's the result of the body's natural rhythm whereby there's a release of corticosteroids (stress hormones) in the early morning hours to help the body prepare for the activities of the day. For many cats, the AMPS numbers are the last to come down.

If Tucker's numbers don't come back within the normal range, please let us know.
 
Chris great thread. Thank you for bringing this subject to the board.

Right now Fitzel is in the high 130's - but I don't dare shoot that. She can go up to the high 100's and then, even w/o insulin, come back down to say 120 on her own. But, she won't dip into the green numbers (except once or twice) without getting a drop of insulin.

I don't know if her pancreas has reset to keep her in the 100's, (it doesn't like getting a drop of insulin when she's anything below 180 or 190 and even then I need to be extra vigilant) or if her diabetes has damaged her system enough that this is the best she can do and will always need a drop or two every now and then, as long as I can be around to do curves on the days or nights I shoot.

My strategy right now is to throw spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks. :lol: If it does, I don't shoot - if it all falls off - then she gets a drop. Or maybe it's the other way around. I'm not sure anymore. :shock:

shai
 
This is a great thread. Let me just clarify why I put Muffin back on the juice. She has had several CP flares in the past, and I have always been able to tell when something is wrong with her. Even when she does have an infection of some sort, her BG only goes into the 100's. This time, she was not acting sick at all, just asked for a drink of water. I add water to her food, and so she normally does not drink. When she does, I check her BG. This time I got a 348, which is unheard of for her. In the past, I would wait for lab results before taking action, but this time, because of how high her BG was coupled with the fact that she does not act or look sick at all made me start the juice again. I'm really hoping that something shows up in the BW to account for this, but I couldn't let her stay at those levels while awaiting results. I'm lucky in that Muffin is really consistent with her BG levels normally.
 
My strategy right now is to throw spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks. If it does, I don't shoot - if it all falls off - then she gets a drop
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Oh how funny ! But I know how you feel.....
If Tucker's numbers don't come back within the normal range, please let us know.
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Yea, just did a BG on Tucker, and it's 169 nailbite_smile I'm trying not to think the worst. I'll keep tracking his numbers, and if they remain high, go have the vet check him out.
Even when she does have an infection of some sort, her BG only goes into the 100's. This time, she was not acting sick at all, just asked for a drink of water. I add water to her food, and so she normally does not drink. When she does, I check her BG. This time I got a 348, which is unheard of for her. In the past, I would wait for lab results before taking action, but this time, because of how high her BG was coupled with the fact that she does not act or look sick at all made me start the juice again
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That's interesting too. They only go in the 100"s? I guess it really helps when you know your cats behavior like you do. I sometimes wonder if I'm just paranoid with every little thing.

This is a new batch of strips (beginning with the higher numbers yesterday)...... I need to check them against the "control" I have for the meter. That is always a possibility.
 
Yes, knowing thy cat is a great thing. I can see when something is a little off with her, and I'll check BG just to back up my assumption. This last CP flare, I got a BG of 113 which while it's not at all an alarming number to the vet, it's not normal for MUFFIN. And she's always only in the grey area as far as the spec Fpl results, so I'm not sure if she's just prone to mild flare-ups or if I just catch it early enough so she's getting treatment before it becomes full blown.
 
Yes, knowing thy cat is a great thing. I can see when something is a little off with her, and I'll check BG just to back up my assumption
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Ann, I guess I knew something was wrong too. Tucker was in Sophies' bedroom, laying on the floor only 6" from her. THAT has NEVER happened before! They have their own bedrooms, and usually they respect each others areas.
or if her diabetes has damaged her system enough that this is the best she can do and will always need a drop or two every now and then,
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Shai, I wonder about that too. Can the pancreas in a cat regenerate itself to the point of near normal? ... or once damaged, always damaged?
I'm afraid Karre's running about 15-20 points higher on average now than he did during his second OTJ-period. He was higher by the same amount when he was back on insulin, too. Now, he'll throw in a few numbers above 120 (but under 150), but his pancreas always brings him back down
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Does age make a difference too?
A lot of weird numbers going on today........ change in weather?
 
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