Boomer PMPS 178 +2 245 +4 162 +6.5 174

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Judy and Boomer

Member Since 2014
Hi there, thanks for all of your help yesterday!
Saw the posts last night after Boomer's bounce. I should have seen that coming; he did that to us before although not to that extreme.
Correct me if I'm wrong but this is likely panicky liver syndrome? Plus a delayed reaction to the amount of carbs yesterday.

I gave him 2 units this morning and Greg will test at +3
Last time Boomer did this he spent most of the next day in blue and only started in green at the end of the second cycle that day but this time he's starting out quite a bit higher.

I will keep updating!
 
Re: Boomer AMPS 378 2 units, 286 at +3 268 at +5

So here's my prediction for what is going to happen over the next couple of days....not that I'm any good at this yet (I'm very much relying on the experts on this board) but I'm curious as to how accurate I can predict it.
He's going to coast in the yellow until after his PM shot then he'll drop into the blue
And tomorrow morning he'll have either a high blue or possibly a low yellow. As long as he's at the upper end of the blue range or into the yellow I will shoot 2 units.
But if he's mid range blue I will want to drop the dosage because I definitely do not want a repeat of what happened yesterday and last Saturday. And we've had to skip shots 3 times in the last week which isn't ideal.

So now we wait and see.....

I will ask my husband to test again at +7 or +8
 
Re: Boomer AMPS 378 2 units, 286 at +3 268 at +5

Good morning Judy,

I'm surprised to see you posting so early after such a night. Absolutely astounding that Boomer dropped again but after reading all the posts, I guess it's par for the course for some cats. You know there's so much to learn and ECID so it's amazing that anyone was even able to come up with this protocol.

In case anyone wants to check Boomer's condo yesterday, I've posted the link below. I forget who suggested it to me but it's a good idea to always post the previous day's link in your next day condo (I hope this makes sense?).

Boomer's condo

Well it looks like you and Greg may be able to relax a little today so I wish you a safe and restful day!

Anne
 
Re: Boomer AMPS 378 2 units, 286 at +3 268 at +5

Hmm, I was kind of thinking he may be green by tomorrow morning :) But, hopefully he will save his green pre-shot test until Saturday when you can be home to monitor him.

I just want to be sure that your understanding. I don't believe the dose is to be adjusted according to each pre shot test, because then you would be dose jumping and Lantus does best with consistancy.
I think stick with the 2 units, for now, as the regular dose as much as possible, and only do a BCS (one time reduced dose) or a skip if you feel uncomfortable tomorrow morning when you can not be around to test.
 
Re: Boomer AMPS 378 2 units, 286 at +3 268 at +5

Hi Dyana!
Yes I know that it's better to stay consistent with the dosing.
That being said, it's no good when he goes so low that we have to skip a dose.
I was prepared to call in sick (um I mean take a vacation day lol) today if he tested low this morning but at 378 I didn't have to worry too much about today.

And it's actually easier for one of us to be around during the work week because my husband is retired. It's the weekends that can be problematic with family committments....and I run a part time business (photography) so I have photo sessions set up and Greg usually comes with me. This weekend though the sessions are taking place in my home so although it's not ideal to have to care for him while my customers are there...it's better than being out of the house with no one there for him.

So you think he will come down faster than I predicted? Time will tell I guess! Next test is at +8 which is in one hour.
 
Re: Boomer AMPS 378 2 units, 286 at +3 268 at +5 198 at +8

ok so he hit blue quite a bit faster than I thought he would although just barely there. :smile:
 
Re: Boomer AMPS 378 2 units, 286 at +3 268 at +5 198 at +8

I agree 150% with Dyana. I'd be careful about dosing on his PS numbers. I know there is a huge concern about him dropping when you are at work.

I know that sounds opposite of what we were saying last night because we indicated if his PS was a certain number, shoot a certain dose. But that was based on his nadirs from yesterday and trying to find a dose that might get him in the right nadir range but also keep him safe. :-D :-D

I've never been a gambler so I will just sit back and see which of you has him more "pegged" on what will happen :lol:
 
Re: Boomer AMPS 378 2 units, 286 at +3 268 at +5 198 at +8

Oh I'm not actually trying to decide on a dose based on levels at that time but it's an indication to me as to how low he might go that day!

I imagine Dyana will win this one lol.
Next test is in 15 minutes.
 
Re: Boomer AMPS 378 2 units, +10 194 PMPS 178

ok so his PMPS is 178 he is still dropping from this morning, should I shoot 2u???
 
Re: Boomer PMPS 178 he cont to drop should I shoot??

Boomer is surfing. There's really not that much difference between his +8 and PMPS. If you factor in the 20% for meter variance, these are virtually the same numbers. If it were me, I'd shoot the 2.0u.
 
Re: Boomer PMPS 178 he cont to drop should I shoot??

Great shooting. You can get a +1 and +2 if it concerns you but he's been flat and he's high enough. I only see one time (yesterday morning :roll: ) where he took a dive. So you are probably fine with a +2.
 
Re: Boomer PMPS 178 he cont to drop should I shoot??

i want to talk a little more about his dosing. just some thoughts rolling around in my head that might help you sort through what direction you want to go.

if your goal is to get him off of insulin and becoming diet-controlled, getting his blood sugar under 120 as much as possible is part of the package. It's when his blood sugar is in the normal range that his pancreas can heal. Cats are unique in their ability to have the beta cells regenerate and begin to produce insulin again. So as that happens, we see the dose going down as the cat's pancreas is sputtering back to life and producing some supplementary insulin. That process can be fast or slow - just depends on the cat.

It's something you're going to want to talk with your husband about - because often, as you've seen, the blood sugar isn't completely predictable. We can follow the protocol, or suggest a reduced dose and try to keep boomer out of the 20's, but really it's going to be your testing that catches where Boomer's BGs are going and brings him up, even when it takes a while. That experience you had yesterday with so many hours wasn't typical, but when a cat's pancreas is sputtering back to life, sometimes things are hard to predict!

We do know that shooting low helps a cat's blood sugar even out and stay low (low meaning in normal numbers, 50-120). Backing away from a low preshot by reducing the dose or skipping, doesn't help in moving towards going off of insulin.

Last night when I was suggesting shooting even less if this morning's preshot was lower, i was really addressing the needs that i was hearing you express about being exhausted and needing to go to work, rather than what was best for Boomer. That's a valid thing to do, but i thought perhaps i should explain why i was offering that as an option. If the world was ideal, taking that reduction of 0.25u and continuing to shoot that 2.25 until he goes below 50 again is the preferred route. The protocol is tried and proven, so as much as we're able to stick to it, especially for newly diagnosed cats, that's what i'd rather do.

Often a cat shot from a higher number (say 350) can dive in an unnerving way even more than a cat shot at 85 that will then stay flat for the next 12 hours. that higher number can be just as risky as shooting low, sometimes i think even more so. The only way to prevent that risk is to reduce the dose enough that the cat just stays relatively high. For whatever reason, cats will hover flat in the less-than-100 numbers, but it's often difficult to get them to stay flat at 150 or 200. as their numbers are higher, the range experienced in the cycle is often (not always, but often) a larger range.

that said, it's a balancing act. So . . . he does have to be monitored when he's low or looks to be heading low. You're doing a fantastic job of doing that. Still, people have lives and can't drop everything to take care of their diabetic cats. it's just reality and no one faults a person for doing what they need to do - we'll support you in whatever you decide.

there's no perfect way to do this. I just want to make sure you understand the pros and cons of aiming for a particular blood sugar range or shooting the lower preshots without reducing.

Does that make sense? Does it raise any questions? Maybe others can contribute ideas too.
 
Re: Boomer PMPS 178 he cont to drop should I shoot??

Julie...thanks so much for the info!
I guess when Boomer was first diagnosed what I presumed was that 1 unit would bring him down so far and if it wasn't far enough then in a few days we would raise it to 1.5 and then 2 etc and that with each increase his number would come down a bit.

What I didn't expect was that at 3 units I would get very little response in the way of a reduced BG but at 3.5 he dropped too low (well...actually not too low but just too low for my comfort zone at that time).
And then the levels would do someone totally bizarre the following day.

What I know now is about panicky liver (saw that last night at 1:00 am when he tested at 365).
And bouncing.
And an insulin reserve (forget what the terminology is here)

So I know about these things but don't have enough experience yet to predict. Assuming one can even predict what is going to happen!

We very much want to get him off insulin. Right after I made plans to retire at the end of next month, Boomer was diagnosed. It happened within days of each other! We had just got used to having relative freedom after our cat Snickers passed away in September (she had kidney disease although that's not what she died from) when this happened.

So I realize that if we treat it rather agressively and try to keep him in the 50-120 range so that he heals, there will need to be lots of testing in order to keep him safe. And that's fine. I hope it is short term pain for long term gain! His numbers are better now and insulin is down from 3.5 to 2 units!

But it still makes me nervous!
 
Re: Boomer PMPS 178 +2 245

the most typical process is that a cat starts at x dose, then we increase the dose following the protocol (looking at the nadirs to determine when to increase and by how much) and then at some point, we get to the dose that's "right" for that cat. often a low preshot number presents itself, and if people can bring themselves to shoot that low preshot, the game changes.

that's not every cat's story, of course, but that's what's happened with Boomer.

yes, it's more complicated that any of us ever thought when we started!
 
Re: Boomer PMPS 178 +2 245

Well that +2 reading was unexpected! Maybe Boomer is trying to make my prediction made earlier (about staying inthe yellow until later tonight after shot kicks in) come true. lol

So let me see if I can make any logical sense of this.....Boomer's levels were so high this morning but came down lower than I expected...and he didn't have insulin last night...so maybe he used up his store and the 2u from this morning trying to come down today so there's less to hold him over until the PM shot kicks in?

How did I do? :?: @-)
 
Re: Boomer PMPS 178 +2 245 +4 162

whenever a shot is skipped, the potential is there for high numbers. i think there was definitely a bounce component to the high numbers in the last 24 hrs too, but he's already beginning to clear that. sometimes it's hard to know exactly what is doing what when you've got more than one factor at the same time (a skipped shot and low numbers in the 20's.)
 
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