BG Levels Going Up During Transition to Raw Food

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The staff at Wal-Mart don't always realize they have these 3/10cc syringes with the 1/2 unit markings on the barrel. Have them open a box to confirm for you. If I remember, the center logo on the box is kind of a pinky purple color. Those are the ones I got for my cat Wink.
 
Thanks Deb and Wendy,

Whew! Is it ever difficult to get a syringe with a 1/2 unit marking on it around here! Anyway, after having been told that they don't exist at Rite Aid, I went to Walmart today (that place gives me hives). The pharmacist there also told me that I would have to get them from a pet supply store as humans never need a 1/2 unit. So, while grocery shopping at Kroger, I thought I'd check their pharmacy. Lo and behold, they had 'em :!: She said that they carried them for diabetic babies.

So, even without the 1/2 unit markings, I gave him as close to 1/2 unit as I could last night and this morning. Tonight, I'll be able to use the new ones. Could someone tell me if these numbers are considered bounces just so I can gain a better understanding?

Last night at 9:39 pm - BG 413 - 1/2 unit
This morning @ 12:39 am - 404 - 0 units
This morning @ 9:13 am - 399 - 1/2 unit
Today @ 1:00 pm - 301 - 0 units
Today @ 4:02 pm - 325 - 0 units

By the way, I'm feeding him 1/2 Fancy Feast and 1/2 ground chicken thigh (he doesn't seem to take to the chicken very well by itself right now, so I'm trying to "trick" him ;-) )

Thanks for all your help,

Brigitte
 
I am thinking he should have come down from a bounce by now but I really need that spreadsheet so I can look for holes where it could be

Otherwise 1/2 unit might not be enough but lets continue for 6 cycles before making a change to give the dose a chance to settle - do you think you will get a chance to work on it? I started one for you so maybe Deb knows a way I can transfer that to you and you can simply update it?

Wendy
 
Hi again Brigitte and extra sweet Corduroy!!

First, no, this isn't a bounce. Bouncing is when you get a lower number (or drop quickly, even if it doesn't go TOO low) and the liver "panics". Corduroy's liver has gotten used to high numbers and when the insulin brings it too low, the liver releases hormones and glucogen (sugar) to bring it back up where it's been "used to".

If you look at the spreadsheet Wendy set up for you, you'll see on the PM cycle on 8/27, his blood glucose dropped to only 67 after being "used to" the high 300's, low 400's. His liver said NO!! That's too low!! ....and flooded his body with those hormones and glucogen. That next morning, you had a 450..THAT'S a bounce! It can take up to 72 hours for "new" diabetics to "clear a bounce"...which means for the next 72 hours, you have to remember that if you're seeing high numbers, it may be because of those chemicals the liver released days ago. Corduroy's spreadsheet

Once the diabetes gets better controlled, the bounces won't be as high, and will take less time to clear. China used to bounce into the 400's and take pretty much the full 3 days to clear....Now she only bounces into the 200's and clears them within a couple of cycles (usually)

Does that make sense?

Also, if you'll continue to use the spreadsheet Wendy set up for you, it'll help everyone here a LOT to see what Corduroy's numbers are doing and what kind of "trend" he's on. You should be able to "edit" it, and just put the numbers you get at AMPS and PMPS, how much you gave in the "U" column and your tests at the appropriate time. If you need help with it, send her a private message. I'm sure she'll be happy to help you!

Edited to add..I see Wendy replied while I was typing. Deb (from Deb & Wink) is the spreadsheet whiz she's suggesting you contact to see about transferring it so you can work on it

Since we're all over the world here, instead of using time zones, we use the "+ system"....so 2 hours after you do your AMPS/feed shoot, whatever number you get when you test would be your +2. If you took a test 3 hours later, that'd be +5

Example...AMPS is at 9AM. +2 would be 11am. +5 would be 2pm..+10 would be 7pm.....then at 9PM (your PMPS time) the clock starts over...so +4 would be 1am, +7 would be 4am and +9 would be 6am
 
Hi all,

I will be working on that spreadsheet within the next couple of days, but I have to use my husband's laptop to do this as my tablet is very aggravating to use for things such as these.

Re: Walmart...ugh grr_red
 
Aww, thanks Lara:) He's my baby cat_pet_icon

I have another kitty named Joe, but he's had a clean bill of health. I will put his pic up sometime along with Cords'.
 
Hi all,

I am sitting down to start Corduroy's SS with the template that you use. However, I am wondering how I enter the days when I gave him insulin three times. I just want to be sure before I get started.

Thanks so much!

B
 
Lantus works best on the same dose, given 12 hours apart. The spreadsheets are set up that way because of that fact. The protocol we use (that's shown to get 84% of newly diabetic cats off insulin completely) is only set up for twice a day dosing. Doses are held for 6-10 cycles before dose changes are advised unless you get a blood glucose number under 50 during any one cycle, then you decrease .25 unit.

Is there a reason we don't know of that you're shooting 3 times a day?
 
That was before, she isn't doing it now. I think you will need to be creative with the SS.. Add comments to support what you did, and /or put the dose in the column at the time you gave it. For that period it doesn't need to be that accurate... Its more now that you are dosing every 12 hours consistently that we want to see it more accurate so we can really tell what's going on.

Wendy
 
Yeah...I totally missed the "gave" it 3 times a day...and instead read "give" it

My deepest apology :oops:

We look forward to how Corduroy does with the new protocol!!
 
Thanks Chris and China and Wendy,

Okay, I will get creative with it. Like I said, I don't think it was an enormous amount of times that I shot three times, but I guess I'll see when I really get into it ;-)

I've got two more concerns that I would like to voice, however. Chris and China, you just said in your post that you recommend waiting for 6-10 cycles before you change doses. Tonight was Corduroy's 6th cycle and because his BG levels have seemed to be slowly going down, resulting in it being 208 at 9:07 pm, I tried to only give him .25 of a unit because I was afraid that if I gave him a half unit again, it might go too low tonight while we're sleeping (although lately, I've been keeping him in the room with us and setting my alarm for every hour to check on him up, until about 3:30 every morning). This has resulted in me being a very tired mom;-) At any rate, I'm hoping I didn't do the wrong thing?

My other concern is this: At the same time I started feeding him raw organic ground turkey thigh and breast with the pre-mix from Feline's Pride, he developed a rash (little bloody-looking bumps all over his skin that he constantly scratches). Someone said that he might be allergic to turkey and to try another meat. However, I'm not sure if it's the turkey or the pre-mix. As I might have mentioned earlier, right now I'm feeding him just Fancy Feast Savory Salmon hoping that this rash will go away. Has anyone heard of an allergy to a specific meat? Could he be allergic to all raw meats? If so, I wouldn't want to invest money in a meat/bone grinder for future raw food recipes.

Thanks for your time,

B
 
Tonight was Corduroy's 6th cycle and because his BG levels have seemed to be slowly going down, resulting in it being 208 at 9:07 pm, I tried to only give him .25 of a unit
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Remember...normal values for a "controlled diabetic" are 50-130. The reason we say "no shot" at 200 for really new people is just for safety until we all have a chance to get to know how each cat reacts to both insulin and food. As you get more data (and more comfortable), we'll be having you learn to shoot when he's even lower!! (yes..even below 100!!..but don't worry about that right now)

The tight regulation protocol is designed to try to get them (and keep them) into those "normal" numbers as much as possible. When they're blood sugars are in those numbers, the pancreas has a chance to "heal".

Once you get your spreadsheet up and running, it'll be a lot easier for us to guide you. We need to see the numbers Corduroy gets during the cycles to determine if he needs more, less or just more time at the current dose.

At any rate, I'm hoping I didn't do the wrong thing?
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You didn't do any harm, but the only time we reduce by .25 is when they go below 50 at any time during the cycle. Shooting the .5 tonight would have most likely been perfectly safe, but as I said, since we don't know where his nadir is (the point in the cycle where the Lantus is working it's BEST), it's hard to say. It's much better that he's too high for a day, than too low for a minute!!

Also, you don't need to test every hour. If you don't let him eat for 2 hours before doing your pre-shot tests, then shoot/feed, at +2 you can get a good idea of what kind of cycle you can expect. If the number is similar to the Pre-shot number, it's probably going to be a "normal" (or quiet!) cycle. If there's a big difference between the Pre-shot and the +2, you can expect an "active" cycle...where you'd want to do more testing. A lot of times for the PM cycle, we want to see a +2 and a test before you go to bed...if that test is a nice safe number, get some sleep!! There will probably be other opportunities for you to stay up all night and test...don't kill yourself off now!

If he doesn't drop below 50 tonight, I'd probably go back up to the .5 for your AMPS and hold it again...let us get a good look at his spreadsheet to see if we think he needs to go up to .75

IF he's below 200 at AMPS time, don't feed him and start a new post and ask for help!!

Has anyone heard of an allergy to a specific meat?
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Yes..allergies to one ingredient are totally possible. Even if it's something he's had before, an allergy can develop at any time....but I think my first reaction would be that it might be something in the pre-mix myself....I've never tried the raw diet though, so have no experience with it specifically

If he was allergic to all raw meat, he'd be allergic to it if it was cooked too, so I think you would have seen signs of that long ago..and had a very hard time finding anything he could safely eat!!
 
Chris and China,

IF he's below 200 at AMPS time, don't feed him and start a new post and ask for help!!
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Ugh, I guess I didn't see this before this morning and I fed him and gave him .5 unit :!: His BG was 193. Why did you say to ask for help?

Brigitte
 
I think you're fine. That 193 was so close to 200, I don't expect Corduroy to drop too low. When people first start to home test and gather data, we suggest a shoot/no shoot threshold of 200 until you know how your cat will react to insulin.

If he had been much lower, 150 or less, then you might have wanted to give less insulin or even skip the shot if the BG was really low. That would have been my recommendation, to cut the dose back to keep Corduroy safe.

The don't shoot, don't feed, stall and ask for advice is a way to get more input on the dose for Corduroy and to keep him safe.

ETA: Would you be willing to add some information to your signature to help us out? Your name, cats name age and sex, insulin and meter used, any complicating medical conditions, food you are feeding would be very helpful for us to see at a glance in your signature.
 
Why did you say to ask for help?
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As Deb said, since you're still very new, and we don't know how Corduroy reacts to insulin, it's just something we recommend so during that 30 minutes you're "stalling", you can get someone else's advice to help you through it. It also kind of lets us know you're doing something "new" (for you) and we can try to keep an extra eye out for you during the cycle just in case.

Here in the FDMB, it's all about being safe first!!

You're doing fine Brigitte!
 
Okay ladies, I think I need some help here @-) I just tested Corduroy's blood and his BG was 139. What should I do? I'm really afraid to give him any insulin right now, especially since I have to work early in the morning. Can anyone help?

Thanks so much,

Brigitte
 
Stall, don't feed, test again and post the number.

I think you will be safest if you skip the dose of insulin for today. Depends on that 2nd test.
 
Thanks so much Deb and Wink :!: I really appreciate the help :smile: I will test him again before I go to bed, which unfortunately, will be pretty soon (around 10:30 or 11). I will post the number then, but I don't expect you to be up waiting ;-) I will probably just have to skip tonight. I'm very happy that he's getting into the lower numbers though. I've had a crazy busy week at work, but on Sunday, I should be able to get the SS posted.
 
Brigitte,

What we mean when we say "stall, don't feed and retest" is that at your normal preshot time, if you get a number you're concerned about (that "No shot" number..usually 200 for newbies) that instead of going ahead and feeding, you "stall the shot", don't feed anything and retest in 30 minutes. That way if the number is going up, we can advise you to probably go ahead and give the insulin. If it's going down, we might advise to stall another 30 minutes, or skip the shot...or even give a BCS dose (big chicken shot)....that's giving some insulin, but not a "Full dose".

We don't want you to feed while you're stalling so the next test (in 30 mins) isn't influenced by food.

The one thing you do have to remember though is if you stall, you will need to change your test times too. So if your schedule is normally 8am/8pm for shots, if you "stall" for 30 minutes on the PM dose, you'd have to change your AM schedule to 8:30 so each shot is given 12 hours apart. You can work your way back to the schedule you want by "going back" 15 minutes per cycle after that. So using this example, if you stalled at PMPS for 30 minutes, you'd give the AM dose at 8:30, the next PM dose at 8:15 and the next day's AM dose would be back at your 8am schedule.

What Deb was suggesting is that you don't give the PM dose (since it was under 200), don't feed the cat, and retest in 30 minutes...then let us know what number you got so we could advise you of your options.
 
Hi Chris and China,

I didn't see your message until now. However, I just tested him again and his BG is 111 now, so it's gone down even more. And this was about and hour and a half after feeding him. I will not give him a dose tonight. Should I go ahead and test him again tomorrow morning at 9, the same as usual? By the way, thank you for clearing up the "stall" for me :smile:
 
Yep definately skip tonite and you can shoot on schedule tomorrow, assuming of course if he is over 200.

Put the 139 as your PMPS,and the 111 at +2 with 0 or skip in the dose column.

Also remember to never feed for two hours before the shot either because you want to make sure the preshot test isn't influenced by food.

Wendy
 
Good idea on skipping tonight! It will drain his depot a little

Yes, in the morning you can start your schedule wherever you want it since you're not shooting tonight, so if 9/9 works best for you to test/shoot/feed, then that's where you'd start.

That is, of course, if he's high enough to shoot tomorrow!
 
Hi all,

Okay, I just tested Corduroy's blood, and his BG is 172 at 8:19 pm. I'm going to stall and not feed him for 30 minutes to see if it's going up. Is this right? By the way, this is after 12 hours and only giving him .25 unit this morning at 8:13 am :!: Things are looking up. Again, thanks so much for all of your help :-D
 
That's perfect Brigitte!! Let us know what you get when you retest!

Glad my explanation of "stalling" helped you

I know we keep harping on it, but once you get the spreadsheet going, it'll make it easier for everyone (including you!) to really see how your kitty is doing and what the next step might need to be

You're doing GREAT!!
 
Hi Chris and China and Wendy,

Regarding the SS, I will be able to work on it tomorrow and Monday. Unfortunately, I've not been able to do anything but monitor Corduroy and work (I've been working A LOT lately), so tomorrow is the first day I will have to work on it. But, believe me, it's a priority :smile:
Okay, so this time, at 8:58 pm, it was 168. It went down 4 points during the last half hour. I will do the same, not feed and retest. Should I do this until I go to bed?
 
4 points is within meter error so he probably is surfing. Remember that longer you stall, means the next shot will be off schedule too since it needs to be 12 hours from when you do shoot. How much can you wait without being too off schedule?

Wendy
 
Hi Wendy,

I was shooting around 9:00 every morning and night, so I really can't wait much longer I guess in order to stay on schedule. Should I test again now? It hasn't been another half hour (maybe only 15 minutes actually). This morning, however, I tested and shot at 8:19 am because I didn't shoot at all last night. Can you advise on what I should do at this point?

Thank you so much,

Brigitte
 
Okay Wendy,

Thank you sooo much for being there :!: It is such a great thing that you all do here on this forum, and it is greatly appreciated. I will work on (and hopefully finish) the SS tomorrow as I am anxious to get it to you. Do I need to start it all the way back to April or should I start it within the last few months?

Have a good night,

Brigitte
 
Start with the most recent weeks worth of data, and work your way back as time permits. Yes, I might be nice to see data back to April, but the more recent data will be more relevant. I'd enter 1-2 weeks of data for now, and more as your time permits.
 
I posted Corduroy's SS in my signature. I have July 1st through now finished. I've been working backwards so that you will have the most current information. I hope it is correct. I put a lot of notes because I wanted you to know the AM and PM times that I checked him. Some of them are very sporadic :sad:
 
Good job Brigitte! Keeping it up to date will help everyone when you need dose advice too!

I'd like to invite you to go ahead and come over to the Lantus board. It will make it easier for you to get advice, as well as will keep you from getting quite so lost in the Main Health board. Of course you can continue to post in the Main Health board if you like.

Lantus Tight Regulation Board

Each day, we start a new post (they're called condo's) with the date, cats name and your AMPS number in the subject line and in the body of the post you can give more of a "Whole Cat Report" (WCR) where you just let us know how Corduroy is feeling..the 5 P's..purring, preening, playing, peeing and pooping and how his appetite is...just anything you think would be helpful and let us know more about your cat.

If you decide to come over tonight, you could start with 9/9 Corduroy AMPS 260,+2 120,+3 72,+5 81 which covers today's numbers so far and if you get a PMPS you can add that too...if you run out of room, just take out some of the mid-cycle test numbers since we can see them on your spreadsheet too...add "New Member" too (if you run out of room, just take out some of the mid-cycle test numbers since we can see them on your spreadsheet)

I think if you get a number at or over 200 tonight, it'd be safe for you to go ahead and shoot .5 and then hold that dose for at least 6-10 cycles. If it's under 200, stall and ask for help. That's what we're here for!
 
Thanks Chris & China!

I will come over to the Lantus Tight Regulation Board tonight. I have to admit though, that I'm a little skittish about giving him .5 if he's at 200 nailbite_smile
 
Hi ladies,

I'm in the middle of cooking dinner right now, so I don't have time to start a new post in the Lantus forum unfortunately. I will start that tomorrow morning. However, I just wanted to run his PM # by you. When I checked it at 8:44, it was 100. I'm thinking that I shouldn't shoot. Is this correct?
 
When is his next shot time? I guess the better question would be where in the cycle is the 100? If it's his PMPS, (or +11.5) then you should probably skip it tonight. Eventually (if he still needs ANY insulin) you'll need to learn how to shoot when you get those lower numbers, but if he's only gone from 81 at +5 to 100 at +11 or PMPS, I think you'd sleep better if you skipped


If it's +10 from the AM cycle, you'd want to get another test in at the PMPS time and then decide.

Let me see if I can find someone with more experience at these low numbers to help
 
Great job on the spreadsheet! It's so useful!

I do notice you increased dose again though. Remember lantus is a depot insulin. That means it takes a few days to build up or drain in his system and so takes a few days to see the true impact of a dose change. The key is consistency. So I would try 0.25 again but hold this dose a few days to see how it settles.. Even if you see highs!. Change only if drops below 50 which would be an immediate decrease.

You may end up increasing after that time but it will give you a chance to shoot consistently which is how lantus is meant to be dosed.

For tonite skipping is an option if your PMPS is that low. You could shoot 0.25 but be ready to test a lot and have syrup and extra strips ready. Let us know if you plan to do this so we can find someone to sit with you

Wendy
 
Chris & China said:
When is his next shot time?
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Hi Chris & China, that was his PMPS, so his shot would have been at 8:44 pm. I think I will skip it tonight since it's already so low.

Wendy&Tiggy said:
I do notice you increased dose again though.
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Hi Wendy, I have been under the impression that I should be giving .5 units every 12 hours. I guess I'm a little confused as to whether it should be .5 or .25 :? I might have missed something when reading the earlier posts and got .5 in my head.

Thanks to both of you for your help! And thanks for offering to find someone to sit with me, but I think I'm going to skip tonight's dose. I can't believe that there is a forum out there that is so helpful :-D

Good night,

Brigitte
 
We need to find you a dose you can give consistently for now. As a newbie I don't think you are ready to start shooting 0.5 every 12 hours... because that would mean you needed to shoot even though the last few nights were low numbers. Over time you will learn to do this because you need to learn to shoot low to stay low.

So for now I am suggesting a lower dose of 0.25 to see how he does. And if it works then great, if not we will have to teach you shooting low sooner rather than later.

Wendy
 
Okay Wendy, I'll give him .25 starting tomorrow morning. I will also start posting on the Lantus forum.

Thanks again,

Brigitte
 
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