Baxter-4/20-PMPS-?

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Jenn & Baxter

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Happy Friday Friends!

Just short recap from PM 4/19. Last night Baxter
PMPS-266-.8 I decided to do a .2 increase from our sliding scale. Which was a BIG flop. The Increase caused a nightly stay at IHop. Which brings us to this morning....

AMPS-294-.6
I went back to our sliding scale dose without a increase. After I gave him the .6 I thought....what am I doing? .6 NEVER works. I should have decreased like what was mentioned in last nights thread. I think I just sent Baxter off to IHop this morning. bcatrun_gif I will be running some test today. Hopefully I'm wrong.
I will be doing a decrease tonight.

Enjoy your Friday!
 
Re: Baxter-4/20

Oh Baxter... MORE pancakes???

Grayson is feeling more peachy after yesterday... hopefully we'll see some nice numbers today - a string of pretty yellows would be nice! I'm hoping he's not going to sit around eating pancakes all day w/ his buddies! But we all know who's the reason...

cat(2)_steam
 
Re: Baxter-4/20

One cycle on a new dose is too small a sample size to be ruled a flop. I need to look up some old threads....
Carl
 
Re: Baxter-4/20

Wish I had a new revelation to share that would reveal all of the mysteries that is FD...maybe the threads Carl shares will help us all :smile:

Just wanted to pop in and check in on y'all before getting back to work! LOTS to get done before going to see Joe tomorrow, so the room will have to wait :YMSIGH:

Wishing you a great day and some ANSWERS!!

Libby (and Hershey, too!)
 
Re: Baxter-4/20

Baxter has left IHop!! :razz:

+3.5-139

Maybe he is tired & bored with IHop now. I can only hope!
I will be back in a couple of hours with another test.
 
Re: Baxter-4/20

Nice, Baxter!

OK, I said earlier that one cycle can't be ruled a flop and I needed to look up some old stuff. I found a bunch of stuff.
Most of it is in Lori and Copper's threads from months ago, because those were the threads that Dr. Lisa had a lot of input on. There is some absolutely terrific information in them, so read them when you have time. Here are links and then I'll quote a few things I think are most applicable regarding dose adjustments, and giving a dose a chance to work.
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=57769&p=628041#p628041
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=58009&p=630707#p630707
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=58241&p=632571#p632571
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=58953&p=640898#p640898
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=61503&p=666480#p666480

carlinsc wrote:
what if it was just one wonky meter reading. What if it wasn't a 455, but maybe a pink gone bad?
This is an example of why I loathe labeling a cat X based on ONE lab value. ie....I get hundreds of people writing to me every year in a panic because their cat has been Dx'd with CKD based on only ONE blood panel. Makes me crazy....

Look for repeatability before panicking or making any important decision.
Lisa Pierson, dvm

The line I made bold and underlined is, in my opinion, the most important sentence I have ever read in the 10 months I have been here. Without a doubt. I quote it all the time.
With Copper's case, as stated, there is no clear-cut reason to lower the dosage. Sure, we have some high PS's but no obviously low numbers to tell us that there is any warranted rebound. And, yes, I have stared at 11/23 until blue in the face but I can't let one day make me continue to worry about rebound.

Also note Lori's notes about how much better Copper has felt when on a higher dose of 2 units. That is a critical part of the picture - how the patient is feeling.

Again, I do not see rebound as a failure. I prefer to push the dosage up and then IF I see clear signs of warranted rebound, then I can adjust.

I would be increasing Copper's dosage to 2.5 units and holding for ~6 cycles (shots). That is another thing about me...I don't believe that it takes insulin so long to "settle" and will often go up after only 3 or 4 doses (yes...even with Lantus....) if I am seeing no response. If seeing some response, I am more apt to wait a bit longer before going up.

We are ALL at a disadvantage because we don't have continuous BG values. I am no smarter than you guys. You are just as smart as me and if we ALL had a BG reading of every minute of every day, we would all know what to do with those numbers.

The bummer is that we don't know where the patient is at every minute of every day and so we just have to go with the data that we have.

Lisa dvm » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:41 am

I am going to break my rule here and comment on dosage. I would be raising it. I understand the issue of possible rebound but, generally speaking, I see it worried about far too much.

I often see more worrying about rebound than ongoing glucose toxicity.

Yes, we have to be patient but not so patient that we keep watching the patient drown in sugar.

I also do not see rebound as a failure or a mis-step.

Also, we need to consider the issue of warranted or unwarranted rebound. If warranted? ( a number truly too low or the drop too fast)..... Lower the dose. If unwarranted? (a cat over-reacting to a safe number) Stay the course and push through it. Don't just look at a high number and assume warranted rebound.
Lisa dvm » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:50 pm

carlinsc wrote:
Lori,
The PMPS looks like a little bounce, that's all.


Food for thought...

What is often called a "bounce" may just be simply lack of duration....or other factors,

I honestly think that rebound and bounces are often overemphasized/WAY overdiagnosed when it is no more than BIPO....or the cat just metabolized the insulin faster that day.

We have nothing in our data to denote that the higher PMPS is due to any 'bounce' (warranted or unwarranted) which, on this board, is used to denote a rebound-type situation.

Ok...even I had to ask what BIPO meant.

Big Insulin Poop Out

Lisa dvm » Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:53 pm

Also keep in mind that for many cats, a higher dose means longer duration.

If we use the term "bounce", that often scares the caregiver - especially dear Lori - into thinking that the dosage is too high...scaring them back into lowering it again.


Lisa dvm » Fri Dec 09, 2011 12:12 am

carlinsc wrote:
Lori,
So that means between tonight's shot and tomorrow's shot will be only 10 hours apart. In that case, I would think about shooting 2.0 instead of 2.25


This is a bit of an academic argument since the difference between 2 and 2.25 is probably only 'on paper' but I would not drop the dose just based on it being shot at a +10. If we keep going backwards, we will never get anywhere....and, as it is...you all know that I would be raising the dosage but I am not going to comment on that anymore since it really is WAY out of my comfort zone to even be talking about dosing outside of a *phone* discussion. Too much to type and too many things may not get said/explained....too much may be lost.

Lisa dvm » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:38 pm

owlgal wrote:
I know the .2u is supposed to not be enough to make a difference


Hi Lori,

I think you have misunderstood some of my long-winded posts. It is not that 0.2 won't make a difference - especially at these low levels of insulin. 0.2 is a 25% increase from 0.8 so that *is* significant.

The issues that I was trying to point out in other threads are:

1) it is difficult to measure 0.1 and 0.2 accurately

2) there are so many other factors influencing the BG so that I was trying to decrease your angst as I watched you agonize over changes of 0.1 or 0.2 units - especially when at higher doses - and then wondering why his chart was so difficult to clearly interpret.
Lisa dvm » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:15 pm

carlinsc wrote:
Something that Dr. Lisa said several weeks ago keeps tugging at my brain.


Given that there are MANY things going on in the body that influence the BG level, it is my opinion that we all get too caught up in thinking that the dosage we give is so critical down to the 0.1 or 0.2 unit….and that the *only* reason a hypo occurs is because of an overdose. Exogenous insulin is only one piece of the puzzle. This is why there is always going to be a risk of hypo because what if the pancreas just decides to wake up that day and join the party…adding to the exogenous insulin? What if some infection/inflammation subsided….or stress was reduced….or the patient lost some body fat…..any of which would render the patient more insulin sensitive?


I have been so busy lately and have not been following Copper's saga but I want to reiterate the above because I often see folks on this board getting so caught up in the insulin dosage (down to overdone minutia....driving themselves crazy....) as if that is the only issue...and as if 0.1 (not even measurable...) or 0.2 units (highly doubtful that this level is accurately measured...) is the end all...be all...'deal breaker' for the cat's situation when it simply is only one TINY (at that level of change) piece of a very complicated puzzle.

Believe me, I completely 'get' the frustration involved with managing any diabetic cat - especially one like Copper - but I just hate to see people ripping their hair out over the dosage of insulin....down to impossible-to-accurately-measure increments of 0.1 or 0.2 units when there are SO many other factors involved in the glucose curve making that level of dosage change pretty darn moot. Yes, it would be great if we really had *that* much control over the disease process but we don't.

(Lori - I am hoping that the last statement will take pressure off of you - not add to it. Copper's body is in charge and we are just along for the ride...doing the best that we can with the ability to affect only a few pieces of the puzzle....ie....diet, insulin, constipation, body weight - in the case of an overweight cat.)

Serum glucose, at any single time point during the glucose curve, represents the sum effects in the *rate* and *amount* and *timing* of:

*Exogenous insulin absorption

*Endogenous insulin production

*Intracellular uptake of exogenous and endogenous insulin

*Insulin degradation and elimination - different for exogenous vs endogenous

*Intestinal glucose absorption

*Endogenous glucose production

*Tissue glucose uptake and utilization

and then throw in the amount of exogenous insulin....excess body fat....inflammation....subclinical infection....etc...etc....


....and then add in Copper's recent bouts with constipation (stress => increased BG) which prompted an email to Lori to get Miralax (or generic PEG 3350) into him asap before he ended up needing an enema at her vet's office...which is not easy for her to get to and I hated the thought of Copper having to go through all of this. (Dosage Rx was to start with 1/8-1/4 tsp AM and PM - mixed into food - and dose upwards to effect.)

When you consider all of the above, to me, at least, I can't get caught up in agonizing over minute dosage changes...so dear Lori....please stop driving yourself nuts over such small dosage increments.

So, yeah. You can see I'm a big fan of Dr. Lisa! I guess what I am trying to convey here is that although it is extremely easy to get caught up in the day to day numbers and trying to figure out the perfect dose, it easily becomes too easy to do that, you know what I mean? The reality is that "results" aren't instantaneous, and it can take several days for things to settle so that you can see progress or lack thereof. And there are just so many "other factors" to consider beyond the small parts that we can actually control, like picking a dose for that day or that cycle.
I know this is a huge amount of information and may not all fit this specific case, but I have read and reread Copper's threads for the past six months because of this input from Dr. Lisa, and it is the basis for much of the advice that I throw out there for all of you. I'm sure you recognize some of it as that.

Now I'll bookmark this one so I can find all of it at once the next time I need it!

Carl
 
Re: Baxter-4/20

Jenn & Baxter said:
Baxter has left IHop!! :razz:

+3.5-139

Maybe he is tired & bored with IHop now. I can only hope!
I will be back in a couple of hours with another test.

Clearly Grayson didn't have a ride, and couldn't meet you, so you decided to leave!!!

Carl - what a great assemblage of info. THANK YOU!! Jenn - don't stress over a cycle (easier said than done, I realize!).

Baxter - keep up those good numbers!!! Must have been all that exercize you got - running around like a wild man! bcatrun_gif
 
Re: Baxter-4/20

Carl thank you so much for the post. I have started reading some. I understand what you are saying. I look forward to reading over all of them. I want to learn anything & everything.

Lu-I drove to IHop & picked Baxter up. He wasn't to happy. He was more embarrassed then anything. Especially when I drove right up front & yelled..."Baxter you get in this car now." :lol: I didn't see Grayson there or I would have brought him home with me. These cats.... cat(2)_steam
I know what street IHop he was at.
294 South 6th Street.

AMPS-294-.6
+3.5-139
+6-125
+10-287>>>>It has started to storm really bad here. He is freaked out because of the thunder & hard rain. So I blaming this on the rain.
 
Re: Baxter-4/20-PMPS-358

I would like to think Baxters PMPS is so high from the storms.

PMPS-358
I guess I will try the .8 again. Maybe it will work tonight.
 
Re: Baxter-4/20-PMPS-358

I just tested him again & it's been 30 minutes since the last test.
I have already fed him & now he is @ 304. I havent given him insulin yet. Maybe the storm BG is wearing off?
 
Maybe, or he might be showing a little P action on his own? You gonna wait or shoot? I'd go for the higher dose again, I don't think it's gonna hurt him.
 
I waited & tested again. I went with the higher dose again....8. We will see how it works tonight.
I will run some test later & post.
 
Was the storm over before the BG came down? If storms stress him bad, that will show up in his numbers.

Carl
 
Re: Baxter-4/20

No its was still raining when his BG drop a few points.
All the test I run before his shot where in the 300's.
i went with .8 and @+217. SO not much movement that I saw. I didnt run anymore test after that.
 
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