? Barney stopped eating last night

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fig4159

fig4159

Member Since 2012
He's been losing weight steadily since his dx (never needed to) - despite eating over a pound of meat daily. He's still drinking (a lot), having trouble walking and has't been able to jump since last night. He's at least 18.

What happens if I stop the insulin? What if I gave him more? I don't want him to suffer anymore. He's ready to leave.

Thanks in advance.
 
fig4159 said:
He's been losing weight steadily since his dx (never needed to) - despite eating over a pound of meat daily. He's still drinking (a lot), having trouble walking and has't been able to jump since last night. He's at least 18.

What happens if I stop the insulin? What if I gave him more? I don't want him to suffer anymore. He's ready to leave.

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
How much and what insulin type do you administer ???
 
Hi there,

I'm sorry to hear that Barney's not feeling so good at the moment. I understand how worried you must be right now. My first suggestion to you would be to get Barney to a vet ASAP to check whether he might be producing ketones (which can be treated but needs to be done ASAP). Is that an option open to you?


Mogs
.
 
The appetite lost might be due to nausea. See the list of symptoms at the following link to see whether there are any behaviours you recognise:

Nausea Symptom Checklist

You'd still need to determine the underlying cause of the nausea but supportive meds can help a nauseated kitty to start eating again.

BTW if you're going to the vet, I suggest asking them to test for pancreatitis (Snap fPL can give an on-the-spot immediate yes/no/unclear result, Spec fPL needs to be sent to an external lab but gives an indication of severity). If pancreatitis is present then addition of pain relief would be needed in addition to the anti-nausea meds (and possibly fluid therapy).


Mogs
.
 
Hi again,

If you can't get to a vet straight away, can you please give us some more information to see if there's anything we can suggest to you:

1. Which insulin is your kitty receiving?

2. Are you able to home test your kitty's blood glucose levels at home?

3. Do you have any urine ketone test strips at home? (If yes, please collect a urine sample - you only need a small amount - and test for ketones. Tips for collecting urine samples here. You can also get urine ketone strips from any pharmacy or from Walmart.)

4. I understand from your opening post that the reluctance to jump is new since last night but is the difficulty walking also a new symptom? (If yes, there's the possibility that an electrolyte imbalance might be the reason and a vet may be able to help.)

If you do manage to test your kitty's for ketones, then if the result is higher than 'Trace' then you need to get your kitty to a vet ASAP because emergency treatment will be needed.

I don't have enough information from you yet to comment on insulin, but as a general principle if a kitty is not eating caution is needed. At minimum I strongly recommend you put a telephone call in to your vet ASAP for advice on dosing, even if you can't get in to the clinic.


Mogs
.
 
Critter Mom said:
Hi again,

If you can't get to a vet straight away, can you please give us some more information to see if there's anything we can suggest to you:

1. Which insulin is your kitty receiving?

2. Are you able to home test your kitty's blood glucose levels at home?

3. Do you have any urine ketone test strips at home? (If yes, please collect a urine sample - you only need a small amount - and test for ketones. Tips for collecting urine samples here. You can also get urine ketone strips from any pharmacy or from Walmart.)

4. I understand from your opening post that the reluctance to jump is new since last night but is the difficulty walking also a new symptom? (If yes, there's the possibility that an electrolyte imbalance might be the reason and a vet may be able to help.)

If you do manage to test your kitty's for ketones, then if the result is higher than 'Trace' then you need to get your kitty to a vet ASAP because emergency treatment will be needed.

I don't have enough information from you yet to comment on insulin, but as a general principle if a kitty is not eating caution is needed. At minimum I strongly recommend you put a telephone call in to your vet ASAP for advice on dosing, even if you can't get in to the clinic.


Mogs

Thanks for responding.

1-Prozinc
2-No. I bought two damn meters and 2 packs of test strips but all we got was errors, even with MY blood. My $%(#ing husband is "too busy" watching TV 24/7 to help me and my son isn't strong enough. Barney does NOT like being restrained.
3-No. I ordered them, but they haven't arrived yet.
4-The jumping is new since yesterday. The walking started slowly a few days ago and has gotten much worse. He's having trouble getting into the litter box (which is Maine Coon-sized, but he isn't), and he's walking like he has a stick up his butt. He also has diarrhea.
5-I don't have a vet. The local walk-in (or rather, park-out) clinic dx'd him. The vet was REALLY pissed that I refused his disgusting Science Diet. He is totally against feeding cats a raw diet and wouldn't even admit that they're obligate carnivores. What a jerk.
6-Money is most definitely an issue.

Q-What do they do for high ketones, assuming that's the problem? I could give sub-q fluids, if you think that'd help. He is a little dehydrated, despite all the water he's drinking.

Julie
Click to expand...
 
jt and trouble (GA) said:
Joined in Sept. I think I put her off. I'm sorry
Click to expand...
jt and trouble (GA) said:
How much and what insulin type do you administer ???
Click to expand...


I'm from Brooklyn --- I don't get put off. If I did, there'd be no doubt. LOL
No worries!
Critter Mom said:
The appetite lost might be due to nausea. See the list of symptoms at the following link to see whether there are any behaviours you recognise:

Nausea Symptom Checklist

You'd still need to determine the underlying cause of the nausea but supportive meds can help a nauseated kitty to start eating again.

BTW if you're going to the vet, I suggest asking them to test for pancreatitis (Snap fPL can give an on-the-spot immediate yes/no/unclear result, Spec fPL needs to be sent to an external lab but gives an indication of severity). If pancreatitis is present then addition of pain relief would be needed in addition to the anti-nausea meds (and possibly fluid therapy).


Mogs
.
Click to expand...
No symptoms of nausea, and he doesn't have CKD. At least, he didn't in August when he was dx'd.
 
jt and trouble (GA) said:
What food are you feeding...? a POUND of meat??? what does that mean?
Click to expand...

I've been feeding him raw meat and fish. Chicken, pork, tilapia, salmon. A bite or two of canned, only if I didn't have enough meat ready. His teeth aren't the best so I cut it up pretty small. Zero kibble. Since he got sick, he only takes a few bites at a time. He's been losing so much weight and really can't afford to.

The past few days he started sneezing, and his nose running. I clean it, which he hates, but since he can't smell as well, I started adding fish to his meat, so it would be more cat-ppetizing. They don't eat if they can't smell it, and he's way too thin already.
 
Thanks for the additional info.

More questions:

7. When did your kitty get the diabetes diagnosis?

8. Also, what was your kitty's starting dose of Prozinc and what dose is he on now?

9. When did your kitty last have a solid poop and was the diarrhoea runny/watery?

(Sorry for all the questions but they're necessary.)


Mogs
.
 
Sorry, more questions:

10. Did you recently change your kitty to the diet you describe above? If yes, when? If not, for how long has he been eating this diet?

11. Is he just eating the meat/fish or are you adding a premix/additional supplements to his food?


Mogs
.
 
Are you adding supplements to the raw?

Heating up food makes it smell a bit more. Also, see if your cat will eat out of your hand. A stuffed nose would not want to make me bend my head down.
 
Red & Rover (GA) said:
Are you adding supplements to the raw?

Heating up food makes it smell a bit more. Also, see if your cat will eat out of your hand. A stuffed nose would not want to make me bend my head down.
Click to expand...

I know that heating it up makes it smell more, but he won't eat it then.
I do run some warm water over it to take the chill off.
No, I'm not adding any supplements to the raw. It's just meat.
I've tried to feed him out of my hand. He bites my fingers. I don't think he can see very well.
 
Critter Mom said:
Sorry, more questions:

10. Did you recently change your kitty to the diet you describe above? If yes, when? If not, for how long has he been eating this diet?

11. Is he just eating the meat/fish or are you adding a premix/additional supplements to his food?


Mogs
.
Click to expand...

Ask away. Nothing is sacred at this point, LOL

He was DX'd August 26th. We thought he was hyperthyroid (even the vet).
Started @ 2U, adjusted to 1.5
His poop was normal on Monday. Yesterday, it was a little loose. Today, it was a puddle.
The weakness seems worse in his rear legs.
Since he got sick, he's been sticking to one room. Today, he started hiding --- we couldn't find him a few times.
They've always gotten some raw, but they were on Fancy Feast before this. I changed their diet when he was diagnosed.
We have 4 cats - 3 are eating raw. The youngest is a kibble junkie (and exceptionally stubborn). He rarely touches canned
food, so it's taking a lot longer to convert him.
The first few weeks I tried every kind of frozen raw I could find locally. They glommed it down at first, but the dogs wound up with most of it.


I may be new to diabetes, but I've had cats most of my life. We had 27 at one point --- & 3 dogs.
Did I answer everything?
 
Red & Rover (GA) said:
Are you adding supplements to the raw?

Heating up food makes it smell a bit more. Also, see if your cat will eat out of your hand. A stuffed nose would not want to make me bend my head down.
Click to expand...

His nose is stuffed - not runny. I have to use warm wet tissues to clean it - it's like glue. Sick as he is, he still fights it. I don't think putting his head down a few inches is making much difference.
 
Thanks for the additional info. I'm sorry about all the questions but I needed to ask them because your kitty is new to me. :)

I asked about the pooping because constipation/obstipation can lead to inappetence.

If your kitty is not eating and has a possible upper respiratory infection that could leave him vulnerable to producing ketones (more so if diabetes is currently not fully regulated). If the ketones aren't addressed immediately it can quickly progress to diabetic ketoacidosis which is life-threatening. It's not something that can be managed at home because the electrolytes go completely out of whack and veterinary intervention is needed to correct the imbalances, along with aggressive insulin treatment, fluid therapy and getting food into the kitty, possibly with some means of assisted feeding.

I don't have experience with raw feeding (Red has tagged Wendy to ask for her help on this). If the raw you're feeding isn't a complete food then that can knock the system out of kilter.

Without knowing what your kitty's blood glucose levels are doing it's impossible to suggest anything on the insulin side of things. If you let us know which meters you have then maybe one of our US members might be able to give you some pointers on how to get one of them to read properly for you.

The problems with walking/jumping could potentially be due to diabetic neuropathy (caused by damage to nerves when a cat is poorly regulated) or an electrolyte problem (e.g. low potassium levels), possibly lack of key nutrients in the food.

Eating lots but still losing weight is usually a clinical sign of poorly-regulated blood sugars (body can't properly utilise the food eaten).

@Wendy&Neko - Could sub-q fluids help?

My best suggestion to you right now is that you get hold of ketone test strips tonight (Walmart or any pharmacy should have them) and check his pee. I forgot to add the link for tips on collecting a sample earlier (sorry!). Here it is:

Tips for collecting urine samples

If the ketones are higher than trace levels then urgent veterinary support is needed (and it gives me no joy to write that: I know what it's like to have stretched finances). If the ketones and inappetence are addressed quickly it can prevent progression to DKA. Further info:

Ketones and DKA

If ketones are in the mix then treating for nausea can help the cat to start eating again. (BTW, I directed you to the nausea symptom checklist earlier because the info there is applicable to nausea in general, not just for CKD kitties. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear in my earlier post.)


Mogs
.
 
Mogs, I did answer re the diet change. I assume that's why you re-posted it. But it won't let me reply to that thread (says I don't have permission) but here it is again:

They've always gotten some raw, but they were on Fancy Feast before this. I changed their diet when he was diagnosed.
 
I'm sorry I'm not communicating as clearly as I would wish right now. I'm in the UK and it's the small hours of the morning over here. (Also sometimes the FDMB server glitches when a post is submitted and it then appears twice. Apologies for any confusion caused!)

Because Fancy Feast is a complete food during the time you were feeding that your little fella would have been getting all the nutrients a cat requires. Red and myself asked about whether you were adding any supplements or a premix to the raw protein was to determine whether your sugar kitty's current diet was nutritionally complete. If that's the bulk of the diet and it's not a complete food then my understanding is that that may cause health issues. Unfortunately I've no experience with feeding raw so I can't offer anything more specific in this regard. We've tagged another member, Wendy, who does have relevant experience. I hope that she will be able to help you further when she comes online.


Mogs
.
 
fig4159 said:
No, I'm not adding any supplements to the raw. It's just meat.
Click to expand...
Cats need more than just muscle meat. You can either make your own supplements from Dr. Lisa Pierson's recipe here, or buy a premix like EZComplete or TC Feline. I used both of those premixes, in addition to some raw from vendors.

A pound of meat is a lot!! My girl maintained her "girlish" 14.5 lb figure on 1/4 lb of raw a day.

Critter Mom said:
@Wendy&Neko - Could sub-q fluids help?
Click to expand...
Not sure what problem we are trying to solve with the fluids.

If his nose is stuffed up, you can try putting him in the bathroom with a hot shower running for a while.
 
Critter Mom said:
Thanks for the additional info. I'm sorry about all the questions but I needed to ask them because your kitty is new to me. :)

I asked about the pooping because constipation/obstipation can lead to inappetence.

If your kitty is not eating and has a possible upper respiratory infection that could leave him vulnerable to producing ketones (more so if diabetes is currently not fully regulated). If the ketones aren't addressed immediately it can quickly progress to diabetic ketoacidosis which is life-threatening. It's not something that can be managed at home because the electrolytes go completely out of whack and veterinary intervention is needed to correct the imbalances, along with aggressive insulin treatment, fluid therapy and getting food into the kitty, possibly with some means of assisted feeding.

I don't have experience with raw feeding (Red has tagged Wendy to ask for her help on this). If the raw you're feeding isn't a complete food then that can knock the system out of kilter.

Without knowing what your kitty's blood glucose levels are doing it's impossible to suggest anything on the insulin side of things. If you let us know which meters you have then maybe one of our US members might be able to give you some pointers on how to get one of them to read properly for you.

The problems with walking/jumping could potentially be due to diabetic neuropathy (caused by damage to nerves when a cat is poorly regulated) or an electrolyte problem (e.g. low potassium levels), possibly lack of key nutrients in the food.

Eating lots but still losing weight is usually a clinical sign of poorly-regulated blood sugars (body can't properly utilise the food eaten).

@Wendy&Neko - Could sub-q fluids help?

My best suggestion to you right now is that you get hold of ketone test strips tonight (Walmart or any pharmacy should have them) and check his pee. I forgot to add the link for tips on collecting a sample earlier (sorry!). Here it is:

Tips for collecting urine samples

If the ketones are higher than trace levels then urgent veterinary support is needed (and it gives me no joy to write that: I know what it's like to have stretched finances). If the ketones and inappetence are addressed quickly it can prevent progression to DKA. Further info:

Ketones and DKA

If ketones are in the mix then treating for nausea can help the cat to start eating again. (BTW, I directed you to the nausea symptom checklist earlier because the info there is applicable to nausea in general, not just for CKD kitties. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear in my earlier post.)


Mogs
.
Click to expand...

I don't leave the house, but I can pretty much guarantee that even if I can convince my husband into going to Walmart tomorrow (he's already asleep), he's more than likely to come home with the wrong thing.

We have 2 ReliOn Prime meters. Their support line wasn't very helpful: the 1st person I spoke to was absolutely horrified that I was using it on a cat. All she did was tell me repeatedly that it was only for huiman use. The second person sent me control solution (which took 3 weeks to arrive), but it didn't help.

The error we were getting means the strips are used. They're not (unless Walmart washed them off and repackaged them). I bought 2 packs of strips from different stores with different lot #'s. I can't imagine they're both bad, so it's either the meters, or me. I did get blood onto the strip in the correct place (eventually) - I kept smearing his with my fingers, but I threw those strips out. They certainly don't give you much time to get the strip into the meter! I got the same error with my blood, which was much easier.

All that vet care sounds extremely expensive. I will ask my husband to take him to the vet tomorrow, but he's really cheap. If he does, I don't think Barney will be coming home alive.

I'll post an update tomorrow as soon as I know anything. Thanks for all your help and advice.
 
fig4159 said:
I don't leave the house, but I can pretty much guarantee that even if I can convince my husband into going to Walmart tomorrow (he's already asleep), he's more than likely to come home with the wrong thing.

We have 2 ReliOn Prime meters. Their support line wasn't very helpful: the 1st person I spoke to was absolutely horrified that I was using it on a cat. All she did was tell me repeatedly that it was only for huiman use. The second person sent me control solution (which took 3 weeks to arrive), but it didn't help.

The error we were getting means the strips are used. They're not (unless Walmart washed them off and repackaged them). I bought 2 packs of strips from different stores with different lot #'s. I can't imagine they're both bad, so it's either the meters, or me. I did get blood onto the strip in the correct place (eventually) - I kept smearing his with my fingers, but I threw those strips out. They certainly don't give you much time to get the strip into the meter! I got the same error with my blood, which was much easier.
Click to expand...

try only partially inserting the strip. then poke the ear. you can transfer blood droplet to the back of your clean fingernail. fully insert the strip and test.
 
That stuffy nose has me concerned. It sounds like he's starting to get an upper respiratory infection and might need antibiotics. If untreated it could get serious.
 
If he's still not eating today consider hand feeding or feeding watered down fancy feast pate with an oral feeding syringe. Not eating can cause fatty liver.
 
Please forgive my typos in advance. A lens fell out of my (prescription) reading glasses this morning and I couldn't find the screw. Since we didn't have one that fit, hubby took them to the vision center, where they snapped off the entire side of the frame. I can't see a damn thing.

Barney went to the vet to be euthanized, but instead, the vet convinced hubby that he could be saved. His glucose was 745, he does have an URI, is dehydrated (which I already knew). They gave him 250ml fluids sub-q. Oh, and he has lost exactly 3 lbs (down to 8.3) since August 26. They did not test ketones because they said "he had no urine". He was in there for over 2 hours while my husband fried in the parking lot. They should know to take a urine sample AFTER administering fluids. Then he wouldn't have peed all over my floor as soon as I took him out of the carrier.

So we're out $200 for unauthorized care, and the cat is still dying.

He won't eat or drink and can't walk (he crawls when he wants to move), but he's not vomiting or jaundiced. I had to bathe him twice today just to get the urine and caked-on litter off him. I wrapped him up in a dry towel and he's laying on the dog bed with a heating pad under waterproof hospital chucks.

His body is cold to the touch. In my experience, that means he is "actively dying".

He's had a wonderful life with us for the last 18 years, and he deserves a better death than this.

Thanks for all the help and advice.

I'll probably be back in a few months when Sam, my 18 pounder, "graduates" to full blown diabetes. See you then.
 
fig4159 said:
Please forgive my typos in advance. A lens fell out of my (prescription) reading glasses this morning and I couldn't find the screw. Since we didn't have one that fit, hubby took them to the vision center, where they snapped off the entire side of the frame. I can't see a damn thing.

Barney went to the vet to be euthanized, but instead, the vet convinced hubby that he could be saved. His glucose was 745, he does have an URI, is dehydrated (which I already knew). They gave him 250ml fluids sub-q. Oh, and he has lost exactly 3 lbs (down to 8.3) since August 26. They did not test ketones because they said "he had no urine". He was in there for over 2 hours while my husband fried in the parking lot. They should know to take a urine sample AFTER administering fluids. Then he wouldn't have peed all over my floor as soon as I took him out of the carrier.

So we're out $200 for unauthorized care, and the cat is still dying.

He won't eat or drink and can't walk (he crawls when he wants to move), but he's not vomiting or jaundiced. I had to bathe him twice today just to get the urine and caked-on litter off him. I wrapped him up in a dry towel and he's laying on the dog bed with a heating pad under waterproof hospital chucks.

His body is cold to the touch. In my experience, that means he is "actively dying".

He's had a wonderful life with us for the last 18 years, and he deserves a better death than this.

Thanks for all the help and advice.

I'll probably be back in a few months when Sam, my 18 pounder, "graduates" to full blown diabetes. See you then.
Click to expand...
Oh NOOOOO I am so sorry... sigh poor kitty kitty:bighug::bighug::bighug:
The vet must know something...sigh Maybe Barney will surprise you. sigh I'm at a loss for words :(
 
jt and trouble (GA) said:
Oh NOOOOO I am so sorry... sigh poor kitty kitty:bighug::bighug::bighug:
The vet must know something...sigh Maybe Barney will surprise you. sigh I'm at a loss for words :(
Click to expand...
I will NEVER go back to that vet again. This is the same guy who told me in August that cats were not obligate carnivores and that Barney NEEDED prescription Science Diet. UGH. I wouldn't feed that **** to the rats.
 
I had to hold him up in the litterbox last night so he could pee.
I lit a candle* for him, asking that he transition quickly and peacefully.

He did.
We buried him under my bedroom window.
I'll plant something as beautiful as he was there.

There are a lot of spirit cats in this house - I've seen them. Their tails brush against my legs, they do figure-8's around my feet in the kitchen at breakfast time.

Someday, archaeologists will declare this land sacred because of all the animals buried here.

Thank you all for your advice, help, questions and patience, but I hope I won't need to come back here.



*Thanks, JT, for including that link in your signature.
(PS - I did join in September - in 2012. I don’t remember why, though --- I’ve never had a diabetic pet before. I noticed it when I added Barney’s photo. I took it yesterday.)
 
Ohhhhhhh sniff I'm so so sorry . Tears flowing ... Rest peacefully Barney. Please stay close to mom until her heart heals.
Land ever so softly in that heart...cat_wings>o:rb_icon:cat_wings>o

jeanne:(
 
fig4159 said:
I had to hold him up in the litterbox last night so he could pee.
I lit a candle* for him, asking that he transition quickly and peacefully.

He did.
We buried him under my bedroom window.
I'll plant something as beautiful as he was there.

There are a lot of spirit cats in this house - I've seen them. Their tails brush against my legs, they do figure-8's around my feet in the kitchen at breakfast time.

Someday, archaeologists will declare this land sacred because of all the animals buried here.

Thank you all for your advice, help, questions and patience, but I hope I won't need to come back here.



*Thanks, JT, for including that link in your signature.
(PS - I did join in September - in 2012. I don’t remember why, though --- I’ve never had a diabetic pet before. I noticed it when I added Barney’s photo. I took it yesterday.)
Click to expand...
Ive sent you a PM please check it out.
 
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