Balancing complementary food for cat with CRF

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kimouette

kimouette

Member Since 2012
Hi everyone,

I'm kind of becoming the voice of the french owners with sick here! IThis time it's a good friend of mine..

Her 11 year old cat is currently in stage 2 of CRF (or atleast that's what I found out using tanya's website, his creatine is 175). Now the vet is suspecting the cat is also on his way to becoming diabetic. So of course she is putting away all dry food now. She asked me to find a good food suitable for both CRF and diabetes. I found one (that is also listed on Tanya's website), but the fabricant mentions that this food should be considered as complementary food only. By looking at the label it looks like the only thing missing is fat. Here's the description :

Porta 21 pure chicken in whole pieces

Porta 21 is free of flavor enhancers, artificial preservatives and contains no dyes, flavors and attractants.
Composition: Chicken (65%) in chicken broth (35%)
Click to expand...



Recommended feeding: Feeding recommendation:
A normal 4 kg - cat gets three meals a day, each 90 grams[/quote]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but the only thing missing is fat right? In that case could she simply add salmon oil to the food? And if so, how many mg or teaspoons?

Oh and one last thing... I know that CRF cat's must eat low phosphorus food (and this one definately is low phosphorus), but since the calcium/phosphorus ratio is respected, doesn't that mean that the cat wont have enough calcium?
 
It might work better if she is willing to make her own food (raw OR cooked) - see Cat Info for a recipe example, as well as searching online.
 
It is not low in P. You want less that 200 mg/100 kcal.
For 4 kg cat it recommends three meals of 90 grams. that is 270 grams for 8.8 lb cat.
Assuming 25 kcal /lb, that is 220 kcal for 8.8. lb cat. That is 1.23 grams/kcal.
At 0.1 % P, that is 0.123 grams/kcal or 12.3 gr/100 kcal.
 
Larry you are right, I made a very stupid mistake here... By not pasting the right food description!! The one I am planning to buy is not chicken (which is the one I posted in my previous message), but chicken with aloe Vera gel. Here's the right description:

Porta 21 is free of flavor enhancers, artificial preservatives and contains no dyes, flavors and attractants.
Composition: Chicken (42%), aloe (8%), in chicken broth (50%)

Analysis:
Crude Protein: 11.0%
Crude Fat: 0.5%
Humidity: 82.0%
Ash: 2.0%
Crude Fiber: 0.10%
magnesium: 0.004%
Calcium: 0.07%
Phosphorus 0.06%

Additives per kg:
Taurine 200 mg
Vitamin A: 5000 IU
Vitamin D: 700 IU
Vitamin E: 80 mg
Recommended feeding: Feeding recommendation:
A normal 4 kg - cat gets three meals a day, each 90 grams


So as you can see phosphorus is almost half what is it for the chicken recipe.
But the question remains the same, can I simply add salmon oil to compensate for the low fat? And if so how can I calculate the amount correctly?

Bjm, I told her about the home made recipe, but she said that if she can't have a complete analysis of what she is feeding her cat she won't do it. She also said that since she is pretty close to her vet, having a detailed analysis of the food is the only option she has to make her vet confident and agree with her choice. So the fact that it is home made is not the problem, but the lack of nutritional analysis is.
 
It is possible to look up the nutritional analysis of the various components in a mix, calculate the amount being used, and dividing it amounts per weight. A tad tedious, but do-able. I'm decent with math and would be happy to assist.
 
Bjm Thank you so much! I definately need help with this!
From what I found on Tanya's website, here's my goal:
fat target for healthy cats is about 36%
Click to expand...
While the food I'm about to buy Is:
Crude Fat: 0.5%
Humidity: 82.0%
Click to expand...
Another important Info on tanya's website claims that a normal cat (so I guess she's talking about cats who are fed normal food with a normal fat content:

It can be a bit tricky working out an appropriate dose of fish oil. There is no definitive dose, and many of the recommendations relate to a particular amount of EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid), so you will need to check the product you're considering to see how much EPA it contains. Many fish oil capsules are 1000mg strength. However, only around 20% of it tends to be EPA (with around 10% DHA), so a 1000mg capsule will contain around 200mg of EPA and 100mg of DHA.
 
One recommended dose is 180 EPA and 120 DHA per 10 lbs (4.5kg) of cat. As you can see, this is more than double the earlier dose.
Click to expand...
And now here's the content of the Hunter salmon oil ( to me it looks perfect since it is proportionally very close to the recommended dose by Tanya:
Per 5ml :
Saturated fatty acids : 0.9g
Simple unsaturated fatty acids : 2.0g
Complex unsaturated fatty acids: 1.8g
Omega 3 fatty acids : 0.9g
EPA : 365mg
DHA : 235mg
Click to expand...
They recommend 1 teaspoon/day for animals between 1 and 10 kilos (but they don't mention if one teaspoon is 5ml!)

I don't even know where to start with all these numbers!
Oh and I forgot to mention that the cat weights about 4.5kg.

Thanks do much for your help!!




 
 
Can someone (good in math) help me figuring how much salmon oil I have to give to balance for the lack of fat of that complementary food? Everything is in my previous post (right above this one).
 
Two years later I'm back to this same old topic, but this time it's for my own kitty!
She is still OTJ but her CKD is progressing a little so I need a food low in carb AND super low in phosphorus.

I'm about to buy Porta 21 (chicken and aloe) for my cat and will need to add fat (goose fat) to compensate for the missing fat in this incomplete food.
I got a headache from trying to make a good calculation, but I think I did it!

Can you guys confirm that I am not about to do something stupid? Or have I missed something about the water content that makes my whole calculation incorrect?

Here's what I calculated...

Porta 21 chicken & aloe analysis:

Protein: 12% (66.66% DM)
Fat : 0.5% (2.78% DM)
Fibers: 0.1% (0.56% DM)
Ash: 2.0% (11.11%DM)
Moisture: 82%
What is left (carbs+vitamins and minerals): 3.4% (18.88% DM)

Calculating the Dry Matter : Protein + actual fat + fibers + ashes = 81% (in other words 81g/100g)
If I add 19g of goose fat per 100g of food = 21.78% DM ( = 3.92% with water content??)
If I add 25g of goose fat per 100g of food = 27.78% DM (= 5% with water content??)

Looking at Dr. Pierson's food chart, I see that an average fat content (dry matter) is between 20% and 40%
So if I add about 25g of goose fat per 100g of food I would be in the average right?

I'm sure I sound dumb!! I get so mixed up with maths and the basic concept of "adding a nutrient = reducing another nutrient"... So I dont know if I'm about to do something stupid!!

Thanks for your help and for sharing the headache with me!
:)
 
Hi Kim,

I'm sorry that I can't answer your question (the maths of how much fat to add to a low fat food) because, no matter how hard I tried to work it out, those numbers just made my head hurt! :oops:
But I am very interested in your question as I've just become responsible for a CRF cat and am looking into low phos alternatives to 'prescription' foods...

Any thoughts on this, anyone...?

Eliz
 
A complementary food means that the food is not nutritionally complete. Not just the fat but it may not have other nutrients like taurine and vitamins. "Complementary" just means as a supplement to the diet and should not be used as the main diet.

Just a word about phosphorus and calcium.

You can purchase phosphorus binders to add to food to help keep the cat's phosphorus level down. Calcium content in food is not really an issue for CRF cats as they frequently become hypercalcemic.

Tanya's website discusses calcium here: http://www.felinecrf.org/symptoms_regul ... nerals.htm

Phosphorus, phosphorus binders, where to get them is at the bottom of the page here: http://www.felinecrf.org/phosphorus.htm

I know the Tanya's website is huge and packed with an overwhelming amount of information but I do encourage you to peruse it.

Anita and Squeaker
 
kimouette said:
...Bjm, I told her about the home made recipe, but she said that if she can't have a complete analysis of what she is feeding her cat she won't do it. She also said that since she is pretty close to her vet, having a detailed analysis of the food is the only option she has to make her vet confident and agree with her choice. So the fact that it is home made is not the problem, but the lack of nutritional analysis is.
Click to expand...
With the veterinarian-written recipe, you have all the necessary info to answer any questions the vet may have.
You know exactly how much of what items went into the food; basic math can divide out anything per portion, too.
Furthermore, the author of the website is a vet and has contact info at the web site, if her vet wants to talk with her.
 
I got my answer from Tanya's forum here it is:
Remember that your DM is 18%, or 18g in 100g of wet food. Therefore, a 25% fat content would constitute 25% of 18g, or 4.5g.
Click to expand...
I was completely wrong with my initial calculation!

Anitafrnhamer : You are right. Giving a complementary food is risky. What I didnt mention is that I am adding many supplements to her daily meal : Taurin, Vitamin B complex (including methyl B-12), fibers (psyllium husk), omega 3 (krill oil), vitamin E (90IU of D-alpha tocopherol), glucosamin/condroitine/MSM/hyluronic acid (for her arthritis). So If you add all these to the ones already in the food (Taurine 200 mg, Vitamin A: 5000 IU, Vitamin D: 700 IU, Vitamin E: 80 mg) I know she isnt missing anything.

I woulnt recommend to do what I'm doing cuz it is a daily headache, but since I want to avoid phosphorus blockers as long as I CAN, I needed to try this out!
The bad news is that my cat doesnt like her food anymore! So I'm switching between her previous food and this new mixture every other day for her majesty. My routine is soo complicated!!

BJM : I wrote to Lisa Pierson. She does mention on her website that this home-made recipe is not meant to CKD kitties. So I wrote her an email asking her if she could send me a recipe suitable for ckd cats, but here's the answer I got :
Dr. Pierson does not provide recipes without conducting a phone consultation to include review of the medical records and owner's write-up in advance of a verbal discussion. That said, she tries to keep the consults as short as possible but with 1) record review, 2) phone time, 3) time to formulate a recipe - you should not count on less than 2 hours of time. The consultation fee is $125/hour + PayPal's 3% transaction fee (4% for non-US clients) with the bulk of the total amount being donated to cat rescue efforts - TLC Adoptions http://www.catinfo.org/tlcadoptions.htm - so that the members of this organization may continue their life-saving work.
Click to expand...

almost 300$ to get a recipe... too expensive for me!
If there are atleast 10 people out there willing to pay 30$ each, I guess one of us could ask for the recipe and share it with the rest of the world!
I am mad at Dr. Pierson for not sharing that recipe. I know she is already sharing a huge amount of very precious information, but why not this one? It's not like we can improvise something based on her initial recipe. We are either stuck with crapy commercial food for CKD cats, or you become like me... overwhelmed.
 
kimouette said:
I got my answer from Tanya's forum here it is:

I was completely wrong with my initial calculation!

Anitafrnhamer : You are right. Giving a complementary food is risky. What I didnt mention is that I am adding many supplements to her daily meal : Taurin, Vitamin B complex (including methyl B-12), fibers (psyllium husk), omega 3 (krill oil), vitamin E (90IU of D-alpha tocopherol), glucosamin/condroitine/MSM/hyluronic acid (for her arthritis). So If you add all these to the ones already in the food (Taurine 200 mg, Vitamin A: 5000 IU, Vitamin D: 700 IU, Vitamin E: 80 mg) I know she isnt missing anything.

I woulnt recommend to do what I'm doing cuz it is a daily headache, but since I want to avoid phosphorus blockers as long as I CAN, I needed to try this out!
The bad news is that my cat doesnt like her food anymore! So I'm switching between her previous food and this new mixture every other day for her majesty. My routine is soo complicated!!

BJM : I wrote to Lisa Pierson. She does mention on her website that this home-made recipe is not meant to CKD kitties. So I wrote her an email asking her if she could send me a recipe suitable for ckd cats, but here's the answer I got :


almost 300$ to get a recipe... too expensive for me!
If there are atleast 10 people out there willing to pay 30$ each, I guess one of us could ask for the recipe and share it with the rest of the world!
I am mad at Dr. Pierson for not sharing that recipe. I know she is already sharing a huge amount of very precious information, but why not this one? It's not like we can improvise something based on her initial recipe. We are either stuck with crapy commercial food for CKD cats, or you become like me... overwhelmed.
Click to expand...



Hi Kiouette! I feel exactly like you do. Stuck with crappy commercial food and overwhelmed. I too contacted Dr. Pierson and got the same quote for "a recipe" and her assistant who is the one who replies said there is no guarantee that the cat will eat the recipe as prepared. Right now I'm feeding baby food and Soulstice Good Karma and supplements. I am so frustrated I feel that you need to be not just a nutritionist but a chemist to deal with feline CKD. Why with so many cats with CKD aren't there more recipes that aren't just low protein on the web?
 
Hi Kimouette,

I don't see any mention of addressing the cat's need for iodine on this thread. That's something you need to check out with your vet. There are also various other additives missing from the Porta ingredient list which would normally be in a complete food. Thrive Complete chicken variety on the Zooplus website has all of the nutrients necessary, but again I'd suggest running it by a vet because the protein content is very, very high.

The taurine content in the Porta is not very high. I'd also be concerned about how far the other additives go towards meeting recommended daily intake.

There is a product that Zooplus carry called Felini Complete; you add it to home cooked meat. It contains all of the vitamins and minerals, etc., that a cat needs. I tried it for Saoirse but it upset her tum (Saoirse has chronic pancreatitis). I think FDMB member @anna and bailey.uk england had more success with it.

Member @Bron and Sheba feeds a homemade diet. Sheba has CKD issues as well as diabetes. If you do a search of Bron's threads you might find more ideas there.


Mogs
.
 
Sorry to take so long in replying to the alert. I have been unwell.
Not sure if this information is for you or a friend.
Have you tried the Weruva brand of canned cat food? It has all the information you would need on their website and a lot of it is suitable for diabetic cats and CRD cats. Worth looking at.

www.weruva.com

http://www.weruva.com/tid-bits-detail.php?My-cat-has-kidney-issues-can-I-feed-Weruva-7

I feed my cat Sheba a raw diet with added supplements. She has diabetes and also has early stage CRD. I have been feeding her the diet for 18 months and so far her blood work has been stable.
I use egg shell powder instead of bonemeal which lowers the phosphorus level.
I also add one cooked egg white mashed up to her diet each day as part of her overall daily calorie count. It is an excellent protein and is very low in phosphorus.
Sheba is 6kgms and she has 120 grams of food twice a day. Her weight has been steady for over a year.
If you are interested in knowing more just tag me and I will be happy to give you more info.
 
Thanks Mogs....I am much better now thanks!
Hope all is ok with you and beautiful Saoirse.

Hi Catherine,
Not sure where you live but here in Australia I haven't been able to buy a suitable premix so I make up my own. If you live in Canada you can buy a premix which is suitable for CRD cats.....it has a lower phosphorus level. Don't think you can get it if you are in the US . If you are in the UK I don't know.
I make up my own supplements by adding fish oil capsules, Vitamin E, Vitamin B, egg shell powder and taurine powder.
I have been feeding Sheba this raw diet and supplements for a year now. Yesterday she had her blood test to check how everything was going and a lot of her results were better than a year ago. The kidney ones were the same.....no deterioration.
If you want to know the supplement recipe I use or more about the premix you can buy suitable for CRD cats just tag me.
 
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