Bad numbers during the day. Good a night. Help.

Status
Not open for further replies.
I just looked at your SS. You are using Lantus, correct?
I am not experienced, other than reading a lot, with Lantus, so dosing specifics would be best coming from someone with direct experience with the insulin.

Just a couple of observations...
You've been increasing the dose aggressively, and I think maybe too much too soon? The thing that sticks out the most is your note today saying that you have removed the dry food completely. Doing that should give you very positive results over the next couple of days. My concern is that the 3u dose which hasn't had much of an impact on the numbers in two days may quickly become more effective, and possibly "too much".
You got a huge drop tonight in the first two hours of the cycle.
If you are still online, can you check again to see if it has dropped more since the last test?
I'm going to check for "lantus eyes" to take a look too...

Carl
 
hmmm. that baffles me as well. It could be that the test at +2 was the "bad" meter reading. I did ask a couple of L users to take a look.

What time zone are you in? Are you going to up for a bit. Maybe another test in 30 minutes will be more conclusive?

Carl
 
Carl asked me to pop in from the Lantus group. Let me take a few seconds to look at your spreadsheet and I'll be right back.
 
Thanks so much Carl. My Vet said I was doing ok with the adjustments, but I'm thinking the same thing. It had to have been a bad reading. I took two more tests. I'll try again in 30 as you suggested. Glad to have some new eyes on things. He was on 7 to 8 units of humulin before the lantis. Just ready for things to settle down a bit for booboo. He's being such a good sport.
 
Aggressive dose increase are OK but you are increasing by too much. You should be going up in .25u increments, not .5u. You doubled his insulin in just a week. That is too much, especially since you dropped dry food too.

That's all I really have to contribute but thought it might be worth at least something.
 
I'm sorry but Ry is not correct. If you have the correct starting dose and nadirs are over 300, the increases are by .5u.

My bigger concern is that he's going low at night and bouncing up so what you might be seeing are bounce numbers and not nadirs. You can't judge a dose increase based on a bounce number. You need to let the bounce LC ear. bUT that is if he's going low at night.
 
Just tested again. It's 558. I must have just had a bad reading. I dropped the thing 3 or 4 days ago. Using the relion meter. How do I let the bounce clear? Thanks for helping out!
 
It can take up to six cycles for a bounce to clear.

What happens is, when a cat gets FD, it is usually a bit of time before he is diagnosed. So all that time kitty might be spending in high numbers, the liver is thinking this is the new normal. Then you start the insulin, the depot fills, the BG starts to come down. But the liver is no longer used to those lower numbers so it releases counterregulatory hormones and glucagon to keep the body safe from what it perceives as low numbers. The numbers don't have to be that low...just lower than the liver deems is normal.

There is nothing you can do but wait it out. Do not raise the dose during a bounce. The only thing with Boo Boo is we don't know if (1) he's getting low and bouncing (2) he's not getting enough insulin yet or (3) he's overdose.
 
He seemed to be doing better before I went up to 2. His numbers have been high for a while while we dorked with humulin and only the vet testing. Hard to not be discouraged. He's peeing and drinking much less. He's gaining weight. He eats a lot. 3 cans of ff classic a day. He's a big kitty. Just skinny right now. Vet said not to limit his food. Can overdose cause high numbers too?

Having fits with our Bella girl. She only likes dry and will not eat treats or scraps. Mixing the dry with wet for her but can't leave it out because of Booboo.

Thanks for the help!
 
What type meter is it? If it's something like a relion, it might be a good idea (since it was dropped) to just buy a replacement to take that out of the equation as a possible problem?

Carl
 
Bob asked me to chime in last night, and I missed it; my apologies!

Some cats do, for some reason, seem to have more active cycles with better numbers at night. My Mikey did right from the start. If you look at his SS, he'd drop into the 100's and lower at night and have flat cycles in the 200's during the day. For him, it was a matter of waiting out those daytime flats, because a dose increase was not advisable as his PM nadirs were low (and are still lower, in general). IMO, he was experiencing what I called "bouncelets," or small bounces, in the morning from the better numbers at night. And then one day, his liver finally got the message that these new numbers were good, and his daytime numbers have improved, first the mid-cycle readings, and then the preshots. It was a waiting game, and he still has better numbers at night.

If I were you, I'd run a few curves to try and pinpoint your nadir time, and then run some spot checks both day and night at and around that time, as that will help you see if this is a series of bounces or not, and then go from there on dose. I would hold the current dose for six cycles, so that if it IS a bounce, it has time to clear, and then run a curve. From there, you can post your numbers and the dosing experts can give you some eyes. Most cats on Lantus don't need more than 2 units unless there's an underlying condition, but ECID, and some do need more. Finding the right dose and then waiting it out are frustrating, for sure.
 
Thanks Amy. I'll sit pat for now. My guts been telling me to back up. He was 446 this morning. I'll keep testing. My other kitty is refusing to eat the wet food. I've been mixing like a heaping tsp of the dry md with it and she's not impressed. Hasn't eaten anything meaningful in a couple of days. I turned my back for 2 minutes and booboo got it. He got maybe 10 pieses of dry. He loves the wet and if given the choice will go for it over the dry. Any idea on getting Bella to eat the wet?
 
hi beth,

i'm having the same problem as you - beeber is the diabetic and eats the wet with no problem. i have 2 others who REFUSE the wet food entirely.

i'm not that familiar with cats but i'm hoping that when they get hungry enough they WILL eat!!!!! :lol: :lol: if not....i don't know what i will do. i've even tried "warming it up" - so much TLC but to no avail!!!!!

thank goodness beeber LOVES the ff classics - all of them!!!!!

good luck to both of us!!!!!
 
Lol...that's what I'm hoping too. Bella is a beautiful Himalayan Siamese mix. She is the princess around here. She's used to getting what she wants. I figure a little hunger will eventually help her see it my way. The only thing other than dry food that she will eat is watermelon of all things. She will hang from your bowl to get it. :lol:
 
http://www.catinfo.org has some great advice on getting the hard-core dry addicts onto canned. Dr. Lisa has a wealth of good info; she posts here sometimes, too.

I was lucky in that mine made the switch more or less drama-free. I had one holdout, but he switched over after a bit. My diabetic and the over civvie thought they'd died and gone to heaven when they got all canned.

What I did (and still do because Jesse James can be a bully) was to put everybody on a schedule, and separate them when they eat. That way, I know that everyone is getting what they're supposed to, especially Jesse James, who has a prescription food. The civvies get fed twice a day, my diabetic gets several small meals to curb his diving habit. They all run to their assigned locations at feeding time.

This also made it easier to switch JJ as he was hungry at feeding times, and more likely to cave and eat his canned. Now that he knows what to do with the canned food and I added a bit of a tastier variety to his rx, he loves it too. And he's so funny, because when he eats, he gets food all over his face. I've never seen a cat do that before; my other two are much neater.
 
I offered Bella lunch, dry mixed with wet and heated to mouse temp, lol. I took her into another room and put it in her favorite window sill, where she stalks birds. Sniffed and walked away. I'll try again tonight. Dogs are loving the leftovers! That's too funny Amy. I've never seen a cat get food all over his face either. :lol:
 
Bella girl cat(2)_steam
 

Attachments

  • 2012-06-04 12.52.02.jpg
    2012-06-04 12.52.02.jpg
    99.8 KB · Views: 871
Thanks Amy for the info! Going to PetsMart to get some new flavors to try. She's not impressed with the fancy feast. If only they had watermelon flavored cat food. I'd be in businness.
 
Marjorie and Gracie said:
I'm sorry but Ry is not correct. If you have the correct starting dose and nadirs are over 300, the increases are by .5u.

My bigger concern is that he's going low at night and bouncing up so what you might be seeing are bounce numbers and not nadirs. You can't judge a dose increase based on a bounce number. You need to let the bounce LC ear. bUT that is if he's going low at night.
Click to expand...

There's a few reasons why I said that

1. There were 5 cycles where Booboo dropped below 300, and it looks like what would have been lower cycles were avoided because of the dry food Booboo was getting

2. There were quite a few nights where no spot checks were done. *if* booboo was dropping lower at night, as lots of people say most cats tend to, we could be missing some vital nadir info.

3. Dry food was just taken away yesterday/the day before (not sure which), after a series of large dose increases.

I am sorry if I was incorrect according to TR protocol, not that me or Beth said anything about it, but I still stand by my belief in that the dose increases are too soon/too much. I'm worried that his numbers may be going lower at night, bouncing during the day, and now that the dry food is gone... he may come crashing down.
 
He went low again last night. Right back up this morning. I fed him 3:30 am. Was scared to go to sleep with him dropping. What to do now?
 
The lowest he is on your spreadsheet was 180 - that isn't very low. He's doing fine.

The range you want for the lowest point of the cycle is between 50 - 120 (measured with a human glucometer)

It takes roughly 3 days for the dry food to clear out of the system, depending on the amount routinely eaten and the cat.

Keep holding with the dose and no dry food. (Just get rid of it - it takes to long for it to be helpful in a hypo - donate it to a pet pantry)
 
Thanks BJM...I'm not used to numbers like that. We dropped the dry and found something civilian kitty will eat. Yay! Just wish those morning numbers weren't so high. Worried about bouncing.
 
He's swinging about 100 points from pre-shot to nadir.

Bouncing seems to happen more as you get down below 200, the swing is much wider, or the drop happens really fast then levels out ( like this \_/).

We believe it may occur when the body isn't used to the new level, when the drop is very large, and the body is unfamiliar with that kind of change, or when it happens so fast it triggers the liver.
 
Sure wish the day time numbers were as nice. He's looking so much better. I'm tired as hell after staring at him half the night. Lol.
 
Infobit: naps work best in multiples of 45 minutes (a sleep cycle). If you take a nap, time it for a multiple of 45 minutes - like and hour and a half. It'll be easier to wake up if you do that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top