At what point in cycle is it too late to inject

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Lana & Yoyo

Lana & Yoyo

Member Since 2010
Yoyo's AM BG:

+0.........79.....>fed
+0.3.......65
+0.75......71
+1.5.......69
+3..........80....>fed
+4.........119

I have been waiting for a BG on the rise where I would be comfortable giving him his morning injection. I've not seen it yet. I would have been quite comfortable shooting a 119 at AMPS but not four hours later after two small meals. I can't imagine that his BG is not going to go up today. At what point should I just give up on his AM injection? I don't want to create an "insulin overlap" problem with his PM shot.

Also, two things. I have gone back to Lantus. I think Levemir is a superior insulin for many cats but Lantus seems to work a little better in decreasing diabetes side effects for Yoyo. On Levemir, he drank and peed huge quantities. On days that I kept him inside, I would go through 25 lbs of Fresh Step litter in 4 days (he was the only user). Although he still drinks and pees too much, the amount of water and pee is down 75%.

Also, secondly, I think I have finally gotten the fleas under control, fingers crossed. I started using some natural products, shampoos & flea control, and he has been flea-free for a week now. Also had some fur shots this week which I think were due to Yoyo being better hydrated since the switch back to Lantus. I can no longer easily pull up that hunk of skin to inject into and I will have to take care as to where that needle is headed! Today's blood sugar may reflect his vacation from fleas and I am wondering if his insulin requirements in general will go down if I can keep the fleas off him. Any thought on that?

Lana
 
BG up to 212 at +6. I gave him .25 units. I am not going to test again until PMPS. I'm sure it will be in the 400s or 500s. Just not sure what to do in these situations. Not sure if I should adjust PM shot. Previously, if Yoyo had a low PS, after I fed him, I would see a considerable rise over the following hour. Sorry to post to Levemir board but I know and feel comfortable with the people here.

Lana
 
Lana & Yoyo said:
BG up to 212 at +6. I gave him .25 units. I am not going to test again until PMPS. I'm sure it will be in the 400s or 500s. Just not sure what to do in these situations. Not sure if I should adjust PM shot. Previously, if Yoyo had a low PS, after I fed him, I would see a considerable rise over the following hour. Sorry to post to Levemir board but I know and feel comfortable with the people here.

Lana
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Hi Lana, sorry no one was online to help today.

FWIW I think you could have shot the +4 119 today, next time try a reduced dose at least.

At +6 I probably would have just skipped the shot and stayed on schedule.

Now what to do? Looks like you are getting close to his PM shot time. Remember that shooting early = a dose increase. Maybe just go with a reduced dose for now.

Hopefully Vicky or Sheila will check in and help you with some split dosing to get you back on track. Not my area to advise on since I have never done it.

I am glad you are trying some natural remedies for the fleas. I hope they work. It looks like it has been a week or so since you gave the Advantage? I have been trying to do some research but didn't find anything relating to cats, but on some dog diabetes sites they felt that some flea medications raised bg levels. It looks like Yoyo's numbers are better recently so maybe that was part of his problem.

Anyway, hopefully the Lantus will work out better this time.

Edited to add - just realized you only shot .25 at +6. I would think shooting a reduced dose of 1.6 would be fine for tonight.
 
Pamela wrote:
I would think shooting a reduced dose of 1.6 would be fine for tonight.
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Yoyo was 340 for his PMPS. Hooray! The nadir for his 0.25 units should have occurred at his PMPS time. I gave him 1.5 units. What's worrying me is that if he is not suffering from his flea allergy any more, then his insulin requirements will be substantially less. I am convinced that the flea allergy knocked him out of remission and was the reason I could never get his blood sugar stabilized on Levemir. As I read the spreadsheets for the cats that have come out of remission, the majority of them have a secondary problem to the diabetes. I think that cats that have a compromised system/pancreas/whatever fall out of remission easily when allergy or new disease or any additional stress hits their systems.

I am wondering if I should have just dropped him down to one unit and just started from scratch in trying to establish a dosage?

Pamela, as to the fleas: I took Yoyo to an all cat groomer. They degreased him from all the vasoline I had been slathering on his red, bare belly, then shampooed him with Natural Chemistry De Flea Pet Shampoo for Cats, and then we sprayed him with Natural Chemistry Natural Flea Spray for Cats. I bought some Natural Chemistry Natural Flea Shampoo for Cats Flea Control and gave him a bath in that yesterday. I think that a week from now, I will shampoo him with the De Flea just for insurance (the De Flea kills fleas, larvae, eggs), rinse, then shampoo again with the Flea Shampoo Flea Control which is supposed to kill/repel for a week. The ingredients are cinnamon oil, clove oil, and cedar oil among other things.

Lana
 
Hi Lana,
Also my apologies for not being able to reply earlier.
I think you did the right thing going back to Lantus. Your decision has already paid off apparently, so it was the right thing to do.

I won't waste your time going in to a long explanation of what to do when you get a low preshot that won't rise, 'cause you did what most of us have and would have done. At least he eventually got some insulin and Pamela's probably right that you could have shot him on the 119, but a reduced dose, like you did anyway.

What I wonder is did you notice how after you got the 79 and fed him, he then only (what was that +.3 like 20 minutes later) had a 65! Someone else correct me, but that seems to possibly indicate pancreatic activity. Especially since even an hour and a half later he was still only 69. The 79 could have been a meter error, he could have been lower, but if this happens again and you see that, I think you should consider he may be making some of his own insulin.
Maybe Sheila has some thoughts on this as she's had 2 cats go OTJ.

I don't know what to make of the excess peeing/drinking though. He should not be doing that on these numbers. Did he have less of it today? Has he had his kidney values checked lately? Gandalf still drinks a fair amount but his kidneys are insufficient.

I'm glad to hear you're getting the flea allergy under control. I hope you are looking in to something to treat your home as well. I don't remember what the background was on him getting fleas, but fleas and their eggs have to be killed in the environment as well as on the pet for the pet treatment to be fully effective. I wonder if you could use that shampoo in a carpet steam cleaner? It's probably expensive shampoo to be using it for that, but I don't know what else you could use that would be safe for pets like this apparently very good shampoo.

I also agree that it might be helpful to go back to 1U and start over, in essence. And it made me smile that you still want to post here. We would love to have you :-D
 
I do think that you want to find a dose that you can shoot consistently - rather than repeating the delays that happened today. I would not have shot a 79, I don't think either, but he may only need a slightly lower dose. Maybe try the 1.5u for several days and see what happens.

As for the flea allergy causing his relapse, and the lack of flea allergy possibly sending hm back into remission, you just have to be watching for the data to tell you that is happening - especially rebound and not raising the does, but lowering it if he starts swinging from 300s to 60s as he did today.

I had all my cats get fleas when I took them on vacation to a house where we let friends bring pets up. Not only did I have to treat them all with Frontline, but I vacuumed the ENTIRE house, moving beds and all furniture except the heavy breakfront and dressers. And I laundered the mattress pads and vacuumed the mattresses. The room that I think had the fleas was the guest bedroom with four beds and the mattresses are stripped of everything but the pads - and my cats love to sleep in there, especially on the top bunk bed. Apparently, so do other people's cats.

Anyway, I don't know that you need to use flea shampoo on the carpets (and I wouldn't use cat/dog flea shampoo as it foams at a different rate than the carpet cleaner is made for). Normally, vacuuming often would be enough, but make sure you get all around where he sleeps and wash the "bedding" where he sleeps. If he is going outside again, you will probably have to keep treating him and keep cleaning and vacuuming.

Why did God create fleas anyway? I mean, do they do ANY good, anywhere in the eco system?
 
AMPS = 365
+3 ......324

Last night I thought I saw a flea scurrying up Yoyo's thigh. This morning at AMPS when I flea combed him, I found a flea and a miniscule amount of bloody debris. So much for Natural Chemistry's Natual Flea Shampoo for Cats - Flea Control. The label says "kills fleas on contact...with residual effect."

After his injection, I saturated him with Natural Chemistry's "Natural Flea Spray for Cats" which says on the label that it provides "flea control for up to one week." Three hours later, I put Yoyo on the table to do his +3 blood test and a flea jumped off of him onto my cheek. He sure appeared to be a super athletic flea and immediately jumped back on Yoyo. I flea combed Yoyo and only came up with one flea -- hope it was the jumper. I didn't put the spray around his eyes and ears this morning. I hope it is the case that the flea I saw 3 hrs after spraying was hiding there and I had just missed him.

Am very discouraged. I wonder if a holistic vet practitioner might have some ideas.

Lana
 
Lana & Yoyo said:
AMPS = 365
+3 ......324

Last night I thought I saw a flea scurrying up Yoyo's thigh. This morning at AMPS when I flea combed him, I found a flea and a miniscule amount of bloody debris. So much for Natural Chemistry's Natual Flea Shampoo for Cats - Flea Control. The label says "kills fleas on contact...with residual effect."

After his injection, I saturated him with Natural Chemistry's "Natural Flea Spray for Cats" which says on the label that it provides "flea control for up to one week." Three hours later, I put Yoyo on the table to do his +3 blood test and a flea jumped off of him onto my cheek. He sure appeared to be a super athletic flea and immediately jumped back on Yoyo. I flea combed Yoyo and only came up with one flea -- hope it was the jumper. I didn't put the spray around his eyes and ears this morning. I hope it is the case that the flea I saw 3 hrs after spraying was hiding there and I had just missed him.

Am very discouraged. I wonder if a holistic vet practitioner might have some ideas.

Lana
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I don't blame you for getting discouraged over the fleas. I would be too. In searching for something natural on the Internet there is so much conflicting information on what is safe and what isn't for cats. So many things that can be used on dogs isn't safe for a cat like garlic. But one remedy that keeps coming up is Diatomaceous Earth (natural organic). Have you tried that yet? Also on this site they suggest plug in flea traps:

http://eartheasy.com/live_natural_flea_control.html

Here is where they suggest to buy the DE:

http://eartheasy.com/insect-dust-diatomaceous-earth-4-lbs

Of course, you might want to run this by a holistic vet first. Maybe also a holistic vet might have other ideas that are safe for Yoyo.

I found one site that suggested making up a lemon juice remedy which you boil, but then on another site it said that citric oils are toxic to cats as are most all essential oils (makes you wonder about the cinnamon oil, clove oil, and cedar oil). So it is hard to know what to believe sometimes.
 
Thanks, Pamela, the diatomaceous earth looks interesting. I am going to find out more about that. It has one big problem, though, the same problems that other flea remedies have.

None of the conventional flea treatments are flea repellents. Revolution is a systemic flea control product that kills the flea as a result of it biting the host. Advantage and Frontline say their topical product kills in 12 hours... so fleas survive on the cat, biting him, for 12 hours before those flea control products are able to kill the flea. Well-protected cats probably have one to three fleas on them at any one time. And they probably have some bloody debris ( which is flea poop which acts as food as flea eggs hatch). Cats are protected from infestations, as far as I can tell, but not occasional fleas. Diatomaceous earth takes up to 48 hours to kill insects.

Yoyo is severely allergic to fleas ( meaning he is allergic to flea saliva) and from what I have read on the internet, flea allergies can get worse and worse over time for some cats as they age. Most of the natural products don't claim to be repellents and, at this point, I am dubious about the ones that do.

I was thinking that the holistic vet might know some foods, safe for cats, that might make the cat unpleasantly smelly to a flea, if fleas even have noses.... I have no more ideas and I think it is worth a try.

Pamela, thanks for your computer searches & suggestions. They always give me another avenue to research.

Sheila, I think the blood sugar drop that we saw was totally a result of him being flea-free for over a week. I think Lantus and Levemir were both good at bringing down his blood sugar. One difference I would see was that Yoyo got a continued climb in BG over the 1st 3 hours on Levemir. On Lantus, it is obvious the insulin is working in the first 3 hour period to lower or at least mute his BG rise. What is different is diabetes side effects. Lantus is "a recombinant DNA technology utilizing E. coli. It differes from human insulin in that the amino acid asparagine at position A21 is replaced by glycine and two arginines are added to the B-chain terminus." Levemir "is produced using recombinant DNA techology in yeast. The insulin molecule is modified by the addition of an acylated fatty acid chain that enables reversible binding to plasma proteins, especially albumin, from where it is released slowly into plasma." I don't understand a thing I just wrote, but I can tell that these two insulins work a little differently. Something in that mix caused Yoyo to pee huge amounts. He drinks and pees too much on Lantus but it is probably 1/3 the amount he was doing on Levemir. Also, when his BG was in the 400s and upper 300s, he would walk around the house yowling. Since I went back to Lantus, he is up to his old behavior again. When he is hungry, he comes and stares at me intently and sticks his tongue in and out of his mouth almost like he is licking his lips. I tap my watch which he know means that he is not going to get any food right now, and he will whirl around and stalk off -- then he'll be back in 10 or 15 minutes to try again. He is such a character! I spend hours reading spreadsheets, both for Lantus and Levemir users, and I think for most cats Levemir is far superior at producing a nice flat curve once the cat is controlled. I think Yoyo is the exception.

Vicky, Yoyo is an indoor/outdoor kitty so I don't know if I can ever provide a flea-free environment. It was not a problem for him until around the time he turned 15. Yes, I do think the fleas are a major part of his diabetes. The first time he went diabetic, I had to go stay with some relatives during a health crisis. I took the cats and they had to stay indoors. I exhausted the Advantage I had brought because I ended up staying far longer than expected. We got a massive flea problem in the house. Horrible. My aunt and uncle didn't have animals and probably weren't thrilled about the cats but I had to bring them -- I was there for 3 months. Anyway Yoyo developed diabetes. I got the cats home and to the vet and Yoyo on insulin. He went into remission 3 months later. I firmly believe falling out of remission was a result of flea problems again. I think his pancreas was probably compromised, after all, he is a gold medal chow hound, and the fleas tipped him into diabetes both times.

Lana
 
Lana & Yoyo said:
Yoyo is severely allergic to fleas ( meaning he is allergic to flea saliva) and from what I have read on the internet, flea allergies can get worse and worse over time for some cats as they age. Most of the natural products don't claim to be repellents and, at this point, I am dubious about the ones that do.

I was thinking that the holistic vet might know some foods, safe for cats, that might make the cat unpleasantly smelly to a flea, if fleas even have noses.... I have no more ideas and I think it is worth a try.
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Allergies are usually caused by immune deficiencies i.e. a compromised immune system. Our diabetics are already immune compromised so I would imagine it doesn't take much more to bring on other health conditions. Did you get a chance to read down to the bottom of that page? It talks about this:

"What about alternative methods of flea control?

Animal health -- Nutrition first

Food- and plant-derived substances are a healthy substitute for chemical-based products. But are they strong enough to control fleas and ticks? Well, why are some people are more prone to mosquito bites than others? There's a nutritional reason, and it has to do with the strength of the individual's immune system and the levels of B complex, zinc, selenium and antioxidants in the body and bloodstream. A strong immune system and high nutrient levels help repel insects in pets and humans. (source: alternativemedicine.com)

If your cat or dog has a severe flea problem, it is often a signal that their health is not as it should be. Many commercial pet foods are nutritionally inadequate and contain harmful additives and by-products. Fresh, whole, raw foods are vital because they provide digestive enzymes and vitamins that can be destroyed by cooking. By feeding your animals a high-quality, natural diet, free of additives and preservatives, you improve their health and dramatically increase their protection from fleas. A healthy animal does not taste or smell as good to fleas.

A natural diet can be enhanced with nutritional supplements such as Nupro Dog and Cat Supplement, the Animal Essentials line, Herbal Multi-Vitamin Powder (overall health support), Plant Enzymes and Probiotics (digestive aid), Omega 3 Plus (an essential fatty acid supplement aimed at skin, coat and heart health). Both Nupro and Animal Essentials supplements can enhance your pet's health and thus strengthen their immunity."

But I think we did discuss a raw diet for Yoyo before and you had bought some locally. How is that working out? Is he still eating it?

What I mix into Tigger's food is a supplement called BioPreparaton (for pets). I've been doing this ever since his dx of diabetes on the recommendation of a holistic vet, Dr. Jean Hofve:

http://www.optimumchoices.com/

Edited to add regarding the DE - this site has pros and cons in the comments part:

http://www.care2.com/greenliving/all-around-non-toxic-flea-control.html
 
Pamela, I have read everything. I just find it all totally overwhelming. I can't discriminate truth from fiction. I called a holistic vet and was told that she treats the whole animal with non-traditional means -- they had no interest in consulting with me on flea allergies if I was not amenable to having her treat his diabetes as well. I am just not willing to take Yoyo off insulin, or as the receptionist at the holistic clinic called it, "that chemical."

Raw food: When you first recommended it, I bought raw and gave Yoyo 50% raw, 50% canned. He scarfed the raw down like it was caviar. Then he stopped eating it. I stopped feeding it for a 2 or 3 weeks and I am now giving him raw again and he is eating it. He likes variety, unfortunately. The canned that I feed him now is mostly Nature's Variety & Merrick.

I have been giving him omega-3 for about 5 months now but I can't tell that it has done anything. He doesn't really like it. Yoyo is like a person who likes candy and pie and who is being handed spinach!

Lana
 
Lana & Yoyo said:
Pamela, I have read everything. I just find it all totally overwhelming. I can't discriminate truth from fiction. I called a holistic vet and was told that she treats the whole animal with non-traditional means -- they had no interest in consulting with me on flea allergies if I was not amenable to having her treat his diabetes as well. I am just not willing to take Yoyo off insulin, or as the receptionist at the holistic clinic called it, "that chemical."
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Really? You have got to be kidding me! I have never heard of a vet, holistic or otherwise, refer to insulin as a chemical. Odd. I wonder what they would have you do differently besides diet? Probably a vitamin regimen of sorts and raw food and maybe adding vanadium and chromium to his diet. But I don't think there has been any concrete evidence out there that these two supplemenets really are helpful in treating diabetes in cats but I haven't looked it up in a while.

How did you find this vet? I would think there are a lot of holistic vets in and around Houston to choose from? Maybe another one would be more willing to work with you.

Lana & Yoyo said:
Raw food: When you first recommended it, I bought raw and gave Yoyo 50% raw, 50% canned. He scarfed the raw down like it was caviar. Then he stopped eating it. I stopped feeding it for a 2 or 3 weeks and I am now giving him raw again and he is eating it. He likes variety, unfortunately. The canned that I feed him now is mostly Nature's Variety & Merrick.
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Tell him he is not allowed to go back and forth! LOL I think you said you bought Rad Cat as well as the Nature's Variety medallions? Curious if he liked one better than the other.

Lana & Yoyo said:
I have been giving him omega-3 for about 5 months now but I can't tell that it has done anything. He doesn't really like it. Yoyo is like a person who likes candy and pie and who is being handed spinach!
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LOL! That seems to be the case with a lot of our kitties. Tigger would much rather have junk food rather than his raw! It is hard convincing him sometimes but he doesn't get his way. When he has 'off days' where he is not eating as well as he should I do sprinkle parmesan cheese over it, or if I have to I add some LC gravy from a can, but usually that only goes on for a short time and then he is back to just eating the raw.
 
For your outdoors flea/insect control - certain plants are natural deterrants and while not 100%, may reduce some of the outdoor flea population. Members of the chrysanthemum family, like marigolds, have pyrethrins in them - a naturally occuring pesticide. Plant lots of them in your gardens! The dry leaves may be used in sachets indoors, so long as no one is allergic to them.

Diatomaceous earth may be placed in your yard where you do NOT want insects ... or earthworms. It is the shells of small diatoms and the edges cut the soft tissues of insects, grubs, and earthworms. Because of the sharp edges on the DE, avoid inhaling it as much as possible - in large amounts, it would not be good for your lungs, nor the cats.

Since vibration may trigger the hatching of flea eggs, be sure to put a flea killer in the bag or collection area of the vaccuum.
 
Pamela wrote:
I have never heard of a vet, holistic or otherwise, refer to insulin as a chemical.
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My conversation was with the receptionist who answered the phone. I had asked her the cost of an office visit and she told me $195 for a first visit. When I told her that I just wanted a consultation for a flea allergy, she got kind of hostile, saying that the vet treated the WHOLE cat, so I just didn't press it when she made the insulin comment. I called this vet's office because she is about 8 blocks from my house, sponsors adoption days and works with the city's dog catcher program to get people to volunteer as workers and to adopt from there (the city's shelter has a phenomenally high kill rate and the animals available for adoptions are none too healthy).

Pamela wrote:
I think you said you bought Rad Cat as well as the Nature's Variety medallions? Curious if he liked one better than the other.
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Yoyo really liked the RAD Cat. That was the first raw food I gave him. I stopped buying it because of the packaging. The Nature's Variety comes in small medallions that I can take out of the freezer one at a time. The RAD Cat is a bulk product that I have to buy the smallest size (which is more costly than the larger sizes) and be sure that I use all of it while it is still fresh. The Nature's Variety Medallions were just so much more convenient -- I could get the price break with buying the largest size and still use just the amount that I needed day by day. I will try that Parmesan cheese trick. I have given Yoyo cheese as a BG test treat and he loves it. I'll see how he likes it on his raw food. Now do you have any tricks for the omega-3? -- he has started turning up his nose at the food that I add the omega-3 to.

BJM wrote:
Diatomaceous earth may be placed in your yard where you do NOT want insects ... or earthworms. It is the shells of small diatoms and the edges cut the soft tissues of insects, grubs, and earthworms. Because of the sharp edges on the DE, avoid inhaling it as much as possible - in large amounts, it would not be good for your lungs, nor the cats.
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Pamela had suggested that and I had started reading everything I could find about it. I was alarmed by recommendations for the cat and the human to wear masks when applying it. I decided I didn't want try it.

The suggestion of using bedding plants as flea repellents was new to me. There is only one problem. I have no flower beds. A little over 3 years ago, I moved into a 1929 cottage. This house had received two updates since it was built. #1) The wallpaper was replaced with 1970s Home Depot Walnut panelling for the walls and acoustic tiles for the ceiling. #2) Central heating and air conditioning was installed. The house had no flower beds at all and my entire focus has been working on the house. I hope to eventually get to the landscaping but it will still be awhile yet. When I do, it will be antique roses and marigolds!

Lana
 
Lana & Yoyo said:
Yoyo really liked the RAD Cat. That was the first raw food I gave him. I stopped buying it because of the packaging. The Nature's Variety comes in small medallions that I can take out of the freezer one at a time. The RAD Cat is a bulk product that I have to buy the smallest size (which is more costly than the larger sizes) and be sure that I use all of it while it is still fresh. The Nature's Variety Medallions were just so much more convenient -- I could get the price break with buying the largest size and still use just the amount that I needed day by day. I will try that Parmesan cheese trick. I have given Yoyo cheese as a BG test treat and he loves it. I'll see how he likes it on his raw food. Now do you have any tricks for the omega-3? -- he has started turning up his nose at the food that I add the omega-3 to.
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The raw food should have salmon oil added to it, at least I know the Rad Cat does, but I can understand your wanting to give him extra for his skin allergies.

What brand did you buy? Is it a refined fish oil where all the toxins have been removed? I don't give extra fish oil to Tigger because it is in his Feline's Pride raw food already, but if I did I would give the one by Life's Abundance which is a high grade fish oil. I looked and they have distributor's in the Houston area. I guess I would email one of the distributor's and see what they suggest as to how to feed it. If you do contact them please let us know what they have to say.

http://www.judyshealthcafe.com/fishoil.htm

Also, regarding the Rad Cat and the size it comes in. What I do with the Feline's Pride, which comes in 2.5 pound containers, is let it thaw slightly and spoon it into smaller 3 oz Glad containers (I have a little scale) and freeze them (some people use sandwich baggies). Three ounces is what Tigger eats per meal twice a day. I always have one thawed and ready in the refrigerator.

Lana & Yoyo said:
Pamela had suggested that and I had started reading everything I could find about it. I was alarmed by recommendations for the cat and the human to wear masks when applying it. I decided I didn't want try it.
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Yes, I saw that too in the Pros and Cons article I gave you. They said to be sure it was food grade but I still don't understand how that would make a difference.
 
The Nature's Variety does indeed have salmon oil added. I did not realize it. The brand of oil I have been buying is Ascenta Feline Omega-3.

Letting the RAD Cat thaw a little and dividing it up is a good idea. I will give that a try (after I buy a small container and determine that he still likes it).

Didn't have an opportunity to comb the Flea Magnet until this afternoon and I found 4 very active fleas. When I last sprayed him, I sprayed his body and tail but didn't spray his head and that is where all 4 fleas were, so I sprayed his head but did not spray around his eyes and muzzle-- the website says use cotton balls to apply around eyes and mouth and I didn't have any -- so I guess I will be finding those opportunistic little suckers on his nose tomorrow.

Lana
 
Last night and this morning, when I pricked Yoyo's ear, the blood dispersed into his fur without forming a droplet. I am wondering if the Natural Chemistry Flea Spray is acting as a blood thinner. I had an online chat with Natural Chemistry this morning asking that question. The person manning the chat line took my question to a chemist. The answer was, "There is nothing in the Flea Spray what would cause blood thinning." We live in such a CYA world that I don't know whether to accept that or not. I have also had that problem once or twice before in the past year so I don't know if it is something to worry about or not.

Pamela, I gave Yoyo raw food Saturday with grated parmesan sprinkled on it. Yoyo did not investigate it but the next morning it was gone. I don't know which of my cats ate it. I tried it again this morning and Yoyo just ate the canned. If it disappears while I am not in the kitchen, then, once again, I won't know who ate it. Could parmesan cheese be a feline blood thinner? (just joking--- I don't think so).

Lana
 
Lana & Yoyo said:
Last night and this morning, when I pricked Yoyo's ear, the blood dispersed into his fur without forming a droplet. I am wondering if the Natural Chemistry Flea Spray is acting as a blood thinner. I had an online chat with Natural Chemistry this morning asking that question. The person manning the chat line took my question to a chemist. The answer was, "There is nothing in the Flea Spray what would cause blood thinning." We live in such a CYA world that I don't know whether to accept that or not. I have also had that problem once or twice before in the past year so I don't know if it is something to worry about or not.

Pamela, I gave Yoyo raw food Saturday with grated parmesan sprinkled on it. Yoyo did not investigate it but the next morning it was gone. I don't know which of my cats ate it. I tried it again this morning and Yoyo just ate the canned. If it disappears while I am not in the kitchen, then, once again, I won't know who ate it. Could parmesan cheese be a feline blood thinner? (just joking--- I don't think so).

Lana
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LOL I doubt it is the parmesan cheese too! More likely it would be the additional fish oil that you have been giving him? Fish oils act as a natural blood thinner which is why people take them to help lower blood pressure and to help lower cholesterol levels as well (I do). Plus I found the following which I didn't know - they are talking about people doses so you would have to check with your vet of course what a too high dose would be for cats:

"Fish oil side effect, safety, danger
Besides bad breath, there is a possibility that very high doses could excessively thin the blood and cause bleeding. It's also possible that high doses of fish oils could interfere with the optimal functioning of natural killer cells, white blood cells, or other cells in the immune system. It is probably best not to take more than 3 fish oil capsules a day for prolonged periods until we determine how fish oil supplements influence the immune system. Another possible fish oil side effect is increased alertness which could cause shallow sleep if more than 5 fish oil capsules are taken daily for a week or longer."

So I don't know. You try something natural to fix one problem but then could be causing another. :(

Keep trying with the raw food though. Maybe put him in a room by himself with the food? I know it is hard to control who eats what and how much with multiple cats. But at least 'someone' there knows he/she is a carnivore! :)

ETA - I am sorry you found more fleas. That is a bummer. :(
 
I've determined that Yoyo is eating the raw with parmesan on it. After it sits a little while, it starts to dissolve. That is the point that Yoyo seems to like it.

The Ascenta bottle says that in 1/4 tsp, the dose for Yoyo's weight, there is 320 mg of Omega-3.

Nature's Variety says that Omega-3 is 1.248% of one ounce. ( http://www.naturesvariety.com/InstinctRaw/cat/chicken ). I've tried a couple of conversions but I can't come up with a reasonable number as to how much Omega-3 the Nature's Variety is providing per serving.

Today was flea bath day. I shampooed with Natural Chemistry De Flea shampoo. After I got him soaked with that, I applied Natural Chemistry Flea Control for Cats which is another shampoo. I rubbed & massaged him with these shampoos for 5 unhappy minutes before rinsing him. I dried him really good, used a hair dryer for a few minutes, then I sprayed him with Natural Chemistry Natural Flea Spray for Cats. He carried on like he was dying but, when I gave him his treat, he scarfed it down, wanting more so he couldn't have been too traumatized. I, on the other hand, was totally wiped out.

I have reduced Yoyo's insulin based on the faulty assumption that I could keep him flea-free and his insulin requirements would plummet. Sadly, I think I am going to have to raise it back up again to 1.5 units.

I did not apply Advantage on Friday which would have been one week since his last application because I bathed him with the Natural Chemistry Flea Control Shampoo which was supposed to have a weeklong residual effect. Natural Chemistry says their products do not wash out topical flea treatments. As you can see on his spreadsheet, by Sunday (10 days since the last Advantage application and 5 days after his Flea Control bath, he was having big problems. Today I used all three Natural Chemistry products. I want to wait a little while more and try Frontline once again. Anyone with suggestions for flea repellents? I'm not sure that there actually are any. Fleas don't seem to be like mosquitoes which there are repellents for. I really hope there is something out there that I have just failed to discover yet. I've gotten obsessive over my losing battle with fleas. Every black speck catches my eye. I've stopped putting black pepper on my food because I catch myself staring at it to see if any of of the black flecks are moving!

Lana
 
OK... In my last post, I said,
I have reduced Yoyo's insulin based on the faulty assumption that I could keep him flea-free and his insulin requirements would plummet. Sadly, I think I am going to have to raise it back up again to 1.5 units.
Click to expand...

Well, I raised him to 1.5 units this AM and his six hour nadir was 53. I don't know what to do. Should I leave it? Should I go back to 1.25? Today he is flea-free....and his blood sugar reflects it..... but how long will it last? A nadir of 53 is fine but if his BG starts from a PS of 275, say, rather than the 315 he had this morning, he may drop lower than 53 the next time. Any thoughts?

I am going to try Frontline on him Friday. I am hoping the combination of Frontline & Natural Chemistry will work where the Advantage & Natural Chemistry did not.

Lana
 
Lana & Yoyo said:
OK... In my last post, I said,
I have reduced Yoyo's insulin based on the faulty assumption that I could keep him flea-free and his insulin requirements would plummet. Sadly, I think I am going to have to raise it back up again to 1.5 units.
Click to expand...

Well, I raised him to 1.5 units this AM and his six hour nadir was 53. I don't know what to do. Should I leave it? Should I go back to 1.25? Today he is flea-free....and his blood sugar reflects it..... but how long will it last? A nadir of 53 is fine but if his BG starts from a PS of 275, say, rather than the 315 he had this morning, he may drop lower than 53 the next time. Any thoughts?

I am going to try Frontline on him Friday. I am hoping the combination of Frontline & Natural Chemistry will work where the Advantage & Natural Chemistry did not.

Lana
Click to expand...

Did he eat normally today? Just wondering if the 53 is because he didn't get enough food. Unfortunately, he is probably going to bounce from the 53 and be higher tonight.

You probably could have let the 1.25 dose ride a little longer since he wasn't getting any lows with that dose and his highs weren't that high either while you are still working out this flea situation. Although I am still not quite sure what the relationship between the fleas and his blood sugar levels are apart from the fact that he does have an allergy to them which causes him to itch and be uncomfortable which maybe contributes.

As far as the Frontline. When I was looking up natural flea remedies the other day I found a blog where people were saying it has lost its effectiveness - that fleas have now built up an immunity to it. Maybe they have fixed that problem now(?) I know you are at your wits end with this flea problem though. I wish I had more to offer. :(

Anymore success with finding a holistic vet?
 
Pamela wrote, "Did he eat normally today? Just wondering if the 53 is because he didn't get enough food. Unfortunately, he is probably going to bounce from the 53 and be higher tonight.?
Click to expand...

Nothing unusual about his food consumption today. He was acting very happy like he really felt good--- at 270 this morning and still at 53 later in the day. You are quite right about the bounce. He was 386 at PMPS. I gave him the 1.50. I don't think he is going to drop dangerously low from that high. I also flea combed him before his shot tonight and I found a flea. If the is back in the 200s or very low 300s tomorrow morning, I will drop back to 1.25 for awhile. Maybe I just didn't stay at 1.25 long enough in the first place.

I don't understand how the allergy affects his blood sugar either but it will send him into the 400's or higher. Stress sends humans' blood pressure higher. Stress will send cats' blood sugar higher. Before Yoyo was diagnosed with diabetes, I took both cats with me on a trip to visit family. I thought I would get their teeth cleaned by a vet up there. I put both cats into one cage. Apparently they tried to kill each other before a tech got them out of the carrier. Their blood tests showed both of them with BGs through the roof. The vet said it was "normal" in that cats BGs go up in response to stress.

I picked up some RAD Cat today. The largest this store had was a one pound container. I let it thaw a little and refroze half of it. I gave it to him at his evening meal tonight and it was the first thing he ate.

I have read a lot of reports on the internet about fleas developing an immunity to Frontline. I thought I would give it a try. I know I said I was "hoping," but I don't really have much hope that it will work any better than Advantage.

I haven't searched anymore for a holistic vet that will take on a flea allergy without taking on the whole cat. I will ask around. It would be nice to come up with a recommendation rather than calling at random.

Lana
 
You may just have to continue to document his fleas - find then, scratching, etc. and reference it to his BG numbers to find the answer to how fleas effect his BG - then figure out how to manage his insulin to manage the BGs. I suspect that you will find it isn't really going to be predictable and you will still be trying to react to a given PS number. Not the best circumstance with the longer acting insulins, but you do what you have to, right?

As for his best does, as you get closer to what that is you need to fine tune it and start thinking in terms of smaller dose changes. He might do well on a dose BETWEEN 1.25u and 1.5u - so try a skinny 1.5u and see if that works to even out the swings. And hold it possible as long as 7 days to let it really settle.
 
Sheila wrote, "He might do well on a dose BETWEEN 1.25u and 1.5u - so try a skinny 1.5u and see if that works to even out the swings. And hold it possible as long as 7 days to let it really settle."
Click to expand...

I am not exactly sure how to do a skinny 1.5u. I tried to ease the plunger back slightly but I am not sure I can load the same dose consistently. It takes me 3 or 4 minutes to measure out a 1.25 unit dose and I have that 5X magnifying lamp. I use Relion syringes and the plungers do not work smoothly. If there are some helpful hints in a sticky post let me know I'll search it out and read it. Anyway, I did measure out what I thought was somewhere between 1.25 and 1.50 and today's nadir was 187 which I was quite happy to see.

I flea combed Yoyo at AMPS (2 fleas), at +3 (1 flea), at +6 (no fleas). No bloody debris, in fact he is still pretty clean of any debris. I use a plastic bowl with a small strainer with a coffee filter in it. I put hot, soapy water into the bowl and sink the strainer into it. If I find something black, I dunk it into the water inside the strainer. After I finish, I take the coffee filter and look at everything with the magnifying lamp, checking everything for legs or tinges of blood. I think I need Flea-Combers Anonymous! but at this point, manually removing fleas may be the best solution until I can find something that works.

Does anyone know anything about insect growth regulators? I have never heard of these before. http://www.fleasmart.com/fleayard.htm

Lana
 
Lana, here is a link to a post I made on micro dosing - applies to any dose that isn't on a quarter unit increment. The thing that makes it easier to make fine plunger movements is twisting it instead of pushing or pulling it. See if that helps.

http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34424#p360982

These days I use a plunger position relative to the printed markings, but you have to make sure that the plunger sits at the zero line each time before you draw the dose. I have had a batch of syringes that had as much as a half unit above that zero line (misprinted).

I have not heard of IGRs, but it makes sense. I would want to make absolutely sure these products were non-toxic.
 
Lana & Yoyo said:
Does anyone know anything about insect growth regulators? I have never heard of these before. http://www.fleasmart.com/fleayard.htm
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

I have not heard of them either and I wonder why they don't list the ingredients on that website. Maybe they do but I couldn't find it.

Glad Sheila helped you with the micro dosing.

I have never used the Relion syringes (I know lots of people do), just the GNP brand and now I use BD Ultra-fine.
 
Lana & Yoyo said:
Pamela wrote: I wonder why they don't list the ingredients on that website."
Click to expand...


http://www.archer-igr.com/

See "The Fine Print" on the right hand side. Looks like awfully potent stuff! Don't know . . . .

Lana
Click to expand...

Wow, they make it sound so safe (I guess once it dries it is not supposed to be toxic?) and then you read that fine print. I am afraid I would be really hesitant to use this product. I know they say the same thing about lawn fertilizer/weed applications that companies use on your lawn, but we feel that possibly that is how Tigger developed liver disease a few years ago and almost died (and the lawn had dried). Needless to say we don't use them anymore and we may have more weeds but it is not worth the possible trade off.

I know you are at your wits end though with this flea problem. :(
 
If I didn't mention it before, you have to seal and throw out the vacuum cleaner bags after every vacuuming when there are fleas. Otherwise, they just hatch and crawl out of the bag and back into the carpets. (Ugh!) I do that now, but I used to sprinkle flea powder into the carpet and vacuum it up and figured that would kill them in the bag.

You might try a dab of Vaseline on his ear to make the blood bead up if it is still spreading out when your poke him.
 
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