Ashley's Numbers All Over The Place

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djacks1128

djacks1128

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I haven't been on in a few days, just trying to collect some data before a new update.
Within the last week there have been lots of changes. I switched back to their original wet food Royal Canin/Waltham SO (for Dudley's crystals). I learned from one of the newer food charts that this is ok for Ashley to eat. It is WAY more expensive, but we need something that will not bother Ashley's tummy and that she likes and will eat. She also went on the Metronidazol last monday and finished it on or about Friday. Her poop seemed better by Tuesday/Wednesday and overall she seemed to feel much better.
Since yesterday (Sunday), her poop is loose again and her BG numbers are all over the place. In fact I'm working from home this morning because she started the day out at 208 and I was worried her BG could go too low when i went to work. I wasn't sure if i should decrease her insulin because it was that low. Well it has gone up since then. +1 280 and +2 at 390. I don't know why it would go up that much within 2 hours. I'm going to test again in a few minutes.
 
You can ALWAYS reduce the dose if you don't feel comfortable shooting the usual dose into the current bg. I never thought it'd happen for my kitty, but for the past several days I have had to reanalyze every dose I give rather than always shoot the same amount or increase. On to your other question: the typical onset time for pzi is 2 hours, which means that their bgs will continue to rise for 2 hours after giving a shot. I don't know anything about your other health issues, but I'm sure others will be around soon with ideas about that.
 
Do you have the link where to find that chart? I'm always on the lookout for nutrition info [and I would like to see for myself too].

Something that's seemed to help our idiopathic cystitis cats is having multiple letterboxes around the house - like all over the house. That seems to help with their stress levels which can play in that issue [and sometimes with diabetes too].
 
It's actually on Janet & Binky's list:
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html
It looks like the conversion has been done there.

Interestingly the breakdown is on their website but listed a little weird [in grams per 1000Kcal]. I'm investigating how to do the conversion. You indirectly found something that has stumped me. :smile:
 
Also as to your numbers, once you have eliminated the other possibilities that could be making the numbers go up then it can becomes a question of is rebound happening or is this a case of liver training needed.

Specific to your SS there have been a couple times she seemed to get some traction but whether or not that was from just - wow more insulin I like that - or something else is hard to know.

"Stress" is one of those things than can make BG's go up. TomTom had an episode with a stray cat that was clearly evident in his BGs. And hopefully you've seen me incomplete list of things:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 223#p77223

Charlie just had a breakthrough at 6u which is a pretty high dose but it happened. Charlie too might be an acro cat and we aren't sure of that still. And Charlie did do a rebound check before he push that high in dose.

You did kind of blast though 2.4 kind of quick with only 3 cycles to let a 10%+ increase settle.

That 208 in the morning - I don't know what to make of that. It might be a sign of rebound or not. I really can't say.

I'm probably not being much help. :YMSIGH: And I apologize I'm a little distracted with non-FDMB things too right now so I wish I was following closer.
 
Sheryl,
I'm closing in on this Royal Canin SO thing. I'm not too hopeful at this stage, I hope I'm not speaking too soon. I thought I would note in Janet & Binky's list it is marked as "SO 30" not SO 33.

However the current Royal Canin listing on their web site for SO 33.
http://www.royalcanin.us/cats/Veterinary_Diets.aspx

If you visit page 4 of the SO 33 product guide it has a table for the wet food called "Metabolizable Energy:"
http://www.royalcanin.us/adx/aspx/adxGe ... ary+SO.pdf
The % Carbs, fat & protein there I think are what you want to use. My best calculation is that it is 16% carbs [and higher is some other calculations]. Obviously a 16%+ carb food is not going to cut it for diabetes and likely has something to do with your current numbers.

I am working on getting down to the bottom of this with Janet so if you give me some time I hope to have better answers for you. I'm not 1000% sure about this but I did want to tell you where my thinking was on this.

FDMB 101 - Trust but verify ... everything.
 
Re: Ashley's Numbers (78 THIS AM) All Over The Place

This morning Ashley's BG was 78! I don't know what to make of this. I fed her and checked again in 45 minutes and it was 76.
I have not given her any insulin.
WTH???
 
Crazy numbers like this can happen with higher carb food.

This is why we make such a big deal out of feeding low carb only.

Very similar thing happened to Sue and Sam recently - her kitty was sneaking dog food.

You are giving a lot of insulin to likely compensate for the HC food. Then you "break through" and it's a very hard breakthrough.

If you switch back to a LC food you are going to need to stay on top of the numbers like a hawk - her insulin needs may drop dramatically. Sometimes it is even recommended to drop back to 1u twice per day if you do not have keytones history.

Diabetics are little carb sneaking missiles - if there is ANY carby food around they will find it - including dog food or neighbors food. Carby food is diabetic cat crack.
 
Do not shoot any insulin into a bg of 200 or less. Until we have better data to go on. I see from your ss bg's are coming up.

Wow, good thing you are testing, aren't you glad you learned.

I think you are giving too much insulin, especially with that 200 yesterday.

I'll look at your ss again in more detail.
 
I'm confused about the SO food calculations and I'm really hesitant to change food again since this is the only thing she's eating that isn't giving her diarreah. If it were a high carb food wouldn't her BG be higher rather than lower?
 
They are higher - you are getting 500s even. What you saw this morning was likely because of the amount of insulin you are giving to compensate for the higher numbers.

Have you tried Wellness Turkey or Chicken? I've even used the Wellness Chicken & Herring which has a little higher P - but OK perhaps. My experience is that if anything it constipates a cat. Diarrhea can be caused often by all the crud in food. Wellness is also grain free. There are other grain free options out there too. Merricks has sever flavors that have very good nutrient profiles. And I seen that the Merrick Before Grain line is now nutritionally complete [but I haven't looked at the ingredients].

You do not need to calculate anything. If you visit page 4 of the SO 33 product guide it has a table for the wet food called "Metabolizable Energy:"
http://www.royalcanin.us/adx/aspx/adxGe ... ary+SO.pdf
That's what we are dealing with. I'm nearly certain of it. I do have a message into Janet just to verify.

But in their own calculation it is 18.4% carbs of metabilizable energy which I'm 99.9% is just %Kcal consumed.

Here are some additional food links from the newbie checklist:
ADDITIONAL FOOD & NUTRITION LINKS:
Wayne & Hobo's list [additional foods]:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30232

Karen & Angus's list [uber-complete food ingredients breakdowns]:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=3515

Some Fancy Feast flavors info:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7743

Hobo's list has many of the Merrick flavors - including the new Before Grain flavors. Angus's list has at least whether a food is gluten free or not [but no real way to tell if grain free from her list]. But at least you can avoid the ones with gluten in them.
 
Yes, higher carb food will make her bg's higher. But too much insulin will overpower the high carb food too.

We try to find a balance between food, meds, health, activity and insulin that will keep our kitties in a safe place bg wise.

If you feed low carb canned food your insulin needs will go down. If you feed higher carb foods your insulin needs will go up. The balance is seen in your spreadsheet from ps to onset to nadir to duration to next ps.
 
If you are confused it's completely normal. This stuff takes a bit of learning.

Honestly, I think you got 'lucky' that I even caught your post about feeding the SO [to stir things up :lol: ]. I'm one of the few folks here that has an interest in the conversions/nutrition-side-of-things. And also one of the few that is suspicious enough of the info to really go and verify. And I'm always suspicious that unregulated cats are sneaking carbs somehow :lol: .

You can read about the conversions here:
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/foodfaq.html

But if you want to convert the Royal Canin foods yourself you have to use their "typical analysis" cart which is actually in grams per 1000kcal. Then multiply the carbs and protein both by 3.5 and the fat by 8.5. Then divide all by 10 to get their calories per 100 calories (or % of calories). There is a small issue of those final 3 numbers summing up just short of 100 [the sum up to like 95] but I'm working on that still AND I think that missing bit is actually compensated for in the "Metabolizable Energy:" table - their own calculation of the same thing.

Both carbs and protein [in cats not humans] are 3.5g per Kcal and fat is 8.5g per Kcal [in cats not humans].

In humans carb and protein are 4 grams/Kcal and fat is 9 grams/cal and alcohol is like 7 grams/Kcal - but cats don't drink liquor so...
 
There is a small issue of those final 3 numbers summing up just short of 100 [the sum up to like 95] but I'm working on that
Click to expand...

Hi Gator - The remaining numbers are normally the ash/mineral content.
 
Yea, that site doesn't list ash :sad: That's kind of what I was thinking too.

After looking again I also noticed that the different cans actually are two different things
Available in a 6 oz can (pâté) and a 3 oz can (morsels in gravy).
Click to expand...
The 3 oz "morsels in gravy" lists the carb as "metabolizable energy" as 23.5% carbs :shock:
 
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