Ashley Is Over 500 + Trace Ketones

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Have you retested the ketones?

Gayle is right - at this point, the ketones are the #1 problem, and you need to watch them like crazy. Forget the BGs for now - decreasing insulin in a cat that may be showing ketones in the urine is far too dangerous. Ketones can go from trace to large in a flash, so please do not adjust insulin doses down until you are sure he is ketone-free.

If you are not sure if the strip showed trace ketones, or just darkened because it got wet, dip one in water and see if the colour is the same as what you saw. If still unsure, please have your vet check.

Once you know that he is ketone free, start removing the dry food and replacing it with low carb canned and watch the BGs very carefully.

But for now, ketones are the concern.
 
Karen, what are other things most important that should be done?
I have heard lots of fluids - is that correct?
Also, test as often as you can to see that you don't miss any improving or worsening.
 
Not Karen but...ensure adequate food, adequate insulin, adequate hydration, test urine as often as possible, take to the vet at the first sign of moderate ketones or clinical signs ...

Drinking excessive amounts of water OR no water
Excessive urination
Diminished activity
Not eating for over 12 hours
Vomiting
Lethargy and depression
Weakness
Breathing very fast
Dehydration
Ketone odor on breath (smells like nail-polish remover or fruit)
 
Hi Sheryl,

Forgive me if you are already armed with this information. As a newbie, another forum member posted a link for me to an article about cat diet and the impact of dry food. http://www.catinfo.org/ Even if you already know all this, maybe your husband would be open to reading it. It's great information that totally changed my understanding of the role of dry food in a cat's diet. I was under the misguided impression that a dry food diet was actually preferable! Now I understand why this is not true. I'm in the process of pulling both my cats off the dry stuff (one diabetic and one not). However, I haven't started home testing, so I'm reluctant to go all wet food until I have some idea of his numbers throughout the day. My newbie kit should arrive sometime this week. :-)
 
OMG...I wrote a LONG reply TWICE...and somehow keep losing my work. I'm having internet issues today and keep getting a message that it has to shut down. i'm going to copy and paste into a document every so often now, just in case....SO FRUSTRATING!!!

I seem to have misse some action here over the last few hours...

First let me ask another newbie question. Can someone please translate: DKA, FD & DH? I'm guessing DH is D___ husband. darn, dumb, dear?

OK so DH thinks that cats should just eat the same food every day and that if it changes too frequently they'll get sick or shock their system. This is why he thinks that I should ween them off the dry food and not go cold turkey (CT...new acronym? anyone? beuler...?). I've also been buying new brands and flavors and changing it up for them to see what they prefer and DH doesn't like this either. I might just drop the kitty krack and tell him that they ate it already. He won't notice...kinda like leaving the new shoes in the trunk or getting rid of the boxes before he gets home.

They do love their wet food and i've been making it extra soupy since the trace ketone reading yesterday. I'm giving VERY LITTLE dry now because they are hawking me when i walk in the kitchen and i'm a sucker and can't get their cans open fast enough. They just seem so HUNGRY all the time now. I'm sure when i'm at work during the day they aren't thinking about it and just sleep...although sometimes I wonder. Anyone try a kitty cam? http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyl..._away_not_many_catnaps_kitty_cam_study_f.html I digress...

Another sidenote: Rad Cat Raw Chicken - I just picked up a container of this from the specialty Cat & Dog store near my office over my lunch break. Has anyone fed this? http://www.radfood.com/

OK, responses to some other questions you guys presented...
Jen, yes that definitely did help and i totally agree with you about hubbies.
I understand that these are all mostly opionions and appreciate that.
Gayle, the tug of war analogy is very helpful.

I'm thinking of continuing to decrease the krack (note: we're down to about 20 morsels) & keep the insulin at 1U for the next couple of days. If still high increase the dose. Thoughts?

i better quit while i'm ahead here before i lose my work again...
 
If you post hit post and someone else has posted while you are typing, it holds onto your post and you have to hit post again. I didn't realize this at first and lost a lot of posts that way :)

Your hubby isn't right and he isn't wrong. Some cats are more sensitive to diet change than others. Since switching to canned, mine eat several different flavours as they get bored, whereas when on dry they'd eat the same thing meal after meal. Go figure!

I've never heard of the Rad food line...someone more up on nutritional requirements would have to look through the analysis to see if they have the right supplements in the right ratios. Do you have little kids at all? I mention that because that is one of the reasons why we don't do raw, as salmonella can be spread and it is a risk to little kids. Also, my pets wont touch it....but it can be a very healthy way to go if done properly.

Honestly, I do not know if sticking with 1 unit is fine or not. I'd suggest that if you stick with 1 unit that you get your cat off of dry food quicker rather than sooner...ensuring though that Ashley gets enough food.

Jen
 
KarenRamboConan said:
Have you retested the ketones?

Gayle is right - at this point, the ketones are the #1 problem, and you need to watch them like crazy. Forget the BGs for now - decreasing insulin in a cat that may be showing ketones in the urine is far too dangerous. Ketones can go from trace to large in a flash, so please do not adjust insulin doses down until you are sure he is ketone-free.

If you are not sure if the strip showed trace ketones, or just darkened because it got wet, dip one in water and see if the colour is the same as what you saw. If still unsure, please have your vet check.

Once you know that he is ketone free, start removing the dry food and replacing it with low carb canned and watch the BGs very carefully.

But for now, ketones are the concern.
Click to expand...

Thank you Karen. I haven't tested the ketones yet today and hope to be able to before I go to dinner tonight. That is a good point of whether or not the strip darkened because it was wet. The colors for negative and trace are really not all that different. I will try dipping one in water when i get home.

You mentioned not to decrease the insulin, however I already have from two to one unit (for a period of two to three days she was getting 3 units per her vet). Are you suggesting I go back to two units?
 
Jen & Squeak said:
I'd suggest that if you stick with 1 unit that you get your cat off of dry food quicker rather than sooner...ensuring though that Ashley gets enough food.

Jen
Click to expand...

Jen, I'm not sure what you mean by quicker rather than sooner.
 
Sheryl & Ashley said:
I might just drop the kitty krack and tell him that they ate it already. He won't notice...kinda like leaving the new shoes in the trunk or getting rid of the boxes before he gets home.
Click to expand...

Okay I had to giggle at this one, but you are so right...they just don't notice.

I know with my bunch when we switched from dry to canned they all ate like horses until they figured out that it was going to be around all day. Before they were use to only getting canned in the mornings and at night with dry inbetween. Once they figured out that the new yummy wet food was the norm not a special treat they all dropped off to a normal rate of comsumption...thankfully as I feed 11. (only 1 diabetic).

DH is both right and wrong about the food...I have one civie that can only have certain foods as he is allergic to beef and fish, but I also have several that if I tried to feed them the same flavor everyday would seek to kill me in my sleep. It falls back to that each cat is different.

IMHO I would dump the kitty krack if they both already love the wet, leave my dose where it is at 1u for a couple of days while trying to gather as much data as possible and then if still high start raising the dose slowly. But as with everything it is only a mere suggestion.

Just my 2 cents

Mel
 
I use raw chicken as a ps snack for Ollie; he is a big boy and when I get up in the morn or come home from work, he is not pleased about waiting that 2hrs before shot and then meals. Shadoe is too prissy and prefers her chicken to be steamed.
For the raw, I get trays of skinless, boneless chicken breasts when on sale, then freeze them individually. As needed, I take one out and thaw in the frig. I slice the breast into small strips for Ollie and Apple; I steam some pieces for Shadoe and cut into tiny cubes. No raw is left out for any of the cats; all is hand fed as a ps snack or sometimes for treats after giving meds.
The next time you are making chicken, try cutting off a few slivers to see if Ashley will try some.

You were saying you want to wean off the dry, what is your time line to reach no dry? I think if Ashley already loves the watered down wet foods, there really is no need for the dry and I bet she would not miss it at all. If you want to give something before ps tests, try something else like chicken or some soft healthy treats, with no sugar. Oliver is not one for snacks, but he does love the pill pockets, roast duck and pea allergy flavor are the only ones with no sugar. You could try them in place of the dry pieces.

Keep in mind that the dry food takes a couple days to get out of the system, so the sooner you stop the dry, the sooner you will see Ashley's numbers improve and the increase may not even be needed.

I am glad to hear she likes the watered wet food.
 
1 unit, drop the dry...test test test.
gosh they make it soooo difficult. the ketone test should only be looked at at the 30 second mark...after that it will just grow darker and darker.
i think you know why 1 unit seems reasonable. TRACE ketones is no reason to have a kitty go for long periods of time balancing out. if 1u doesn't show results in 5 cycles by all means go up. mid test #'s are most important now. if however 1u is a good dose and you continue with 2u it could take weeks of trying to figure out what the heck it is. upping the dose continually.

on pzi, like lantus we start with 1u.
standard, traditional and makes one whole ton of sense.
 
I just came home and gave them some pure bites freeze dried chicken instead of the crack. I really want it gone. I bought them various brands of wet food today at the store:
Wellness - Turkey
Evo - Chicken & Turkey
Evo - Venison
Merrick - Grammies Pot Pie
Merrick - Cowboy Cookout

I just fed them some Wellness Turkey soup and Ashley loves it and Dudley doesn't seem to, but sometimes I think he wait's for it to dry up a bit or if he's not starving he waits for Ashley to finish (they have two bowls...maybe he likes the privacy)...he just went back in...stay tuned...
...he's eating Ashley's leftovers...she ate the more watery portion...ANdddd...he's out...i don't think he likes it. Now Ashley went back for more. I'm not sure if i should offer a different can to Dudley.

I did her PMPS and it's 325.

Here's another question I have. So in the morning I feed them and shoot Ashley between 7:30 & 8am. I get home around 6pm and there's no way they'll wait to eat. I try to wait, but feed and shoot Ashley between 6:30 and 7pm. Is this ok? Also, if she eats at 6:15-6:30 how long can I wait to give her the shot?
 
Also, if i just tested her at 6:15, would it be considered +10 or PMPS AM shot at 8am. Note, I have to go out to dinner with in-laws at about 7 and will need to shoot within the next 20 minutes.
 
pzi is a pretty forgiving insulin when it comes to times. go ahead and test before feeding dinner and shoot then.
eventually you may get a better schedule worked out.
looks like you'll either be 1.5 hours early or late.
 
btw, nice improvement in your #'s sheryl. so glad you've decided to ride 1u
 
it appears the water and ashley are fine...and you my dear have ketones!
did you remember that it is at exactly 30 seconds that your true results will show. after that the color changes but it does'nt mean anything.
 
you can wait 20 minutes before shooting. but remember THAT will start the time for any +'s and not the time of your test. +2 will still be 2 hours after the shot.
 
your kitty looks ketone free to me... but you my dear lol!

my lulu and i just joined, but when i check for ketones with him i look for a pink hue at the 15 and 30 second mark. the colors are close and i know for me when i test my anxiety level is higher and i tend to get really confused so keeping the idea of looking for pink helps me. as long as it is tan as it darkens i feel like it's ok.
 
I did not know that it changes after 30 seconds. It's definitely less of a pink tone, so i'm relieved, but still want to keep a close eye on this. Me on the other hand???

I just tested her at +4 and it was 379. Still under 400 so i'm good with that for now.

My other issue now is that I have the Walmart Relion glucometer and EVERY Walmart in my area is out of the test strips. I've been to 4 of them in the last 4 days and no one has them. I was going to buy a whole new meter and strips, but the ones they had left were expensive and they told me that they cannot be returned if opened. I just used my last strip so I won't be able to check her in the morning. :-x . I'm going to try to find another Walmart tomorrow and stock up if i find them. One of them had hardly any test strips at all of any brand...maybe two or three boxes. Weird! Is there some kind of drought on diabetic test strips.

OK, g'nite all.
 
Sheryl & Ashley said:
I did not know that it changes after 30 seconds. It's definitely less of a pink tone, so i'm relieved, but still want to keep a close eye on this. Me on the other hand???
Click to expand...

Actually it looks like she might still have trace ketones. It does appear darker than the water strip. BTW, the time is different for ketone strips made by different manufacturers. It looks like your bottle says to read results at 15 seconds, not 30.

Your test is darker in the center and looks more like a reaction you might see if there was blood in the urine.
 
ashely yes, but you have to call me to explain how. i don't like you not testing mid cycle's all pharmacy's and other stores carry strips too. just a thought.
 
I looked at the rad site and can't find their ingredient list. Since you have the container, can you post it, so we can at least see what's in it.

Looks like you've mastered home testing and ketone testing. ;-)

Now we just need to figure out the correct dose and the food thing.

Some cats are more sensitive to food changes, (flavors, brands, types). With mine, I've limited their foods to poultry and two brands. They get a daily buffet of the two cans and homemade raw. They free feed and eat what and when they want.

They get supplemented with treats - cooked chicken, purebites, etc.

Doing the kibble count is a good way to wean her off the dry. And if you find you have lots of dry that you want to "get rid of" you can take it to your shelter and feed it to those cats. That way you're not wasting it.

Ketones and insulin go hand in hand and too little insulin can cause a ketone problem. Like was said, that can escalate and then you will have a $$ vet visit to deal with.

Now that you are testing and starting to collect data, we can work on determining the correct for now dose. No worries, you will get this, just takes time to understand.

If you need to talk - give a call. I'm around.
 
Just wanted to stop in and say hi. It looks like you have been getting some great input [and awesome hands-on help from Hillary!!]

My only input right now would be about potentially exploring using u100 needles with the U40 insulin. Info on this can be found in the PZI Sticky. If you feel up to the conversion, it can help get finer and more consistent gradients in dose.

I know my local wal-mart sells reli-on u100 30g 5/16" insulin syringes [31g is idea but 30g is fine too]. Some state prohibit the sale of them without prescription however. If that's the case then they can be bought online.

I'm hoping the food change will help the numbers come down.
 
Sheryl have you tried the walmart in edison on rt 27? Or how about sam's club that is walmart pwned right maybe they sell relion. And if they work like costco you don't have to be a member to use the pharmacy.

Just a thought.
 
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