Asher Thurs 4/28 dose reduction

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donnahc

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Hi Kids:
~O)
It’s our first day on the reduction test. Here’s where we are:
amps 276, shot 2 units again
+5 304

So... the amps was pretty positive. The +5 not so much.

I have to go over everything that was discussed last night and come up with a game plan. It was a lot of info at one time, but I did ask you all.
And I SO appreciate you all taking the time to help us. I know it is a lot of staring at spreadsheets at night when we are all tired.

I’ll keep you posted along the way. If you have any insight, let me know.

Thanks to you all again! Giant (((((hugs)))))!!!
:mrgreen:
 
so nothing but a rise by +5.....hmmmm, not exactly what we were hoping for...but time will tell.
i'll be looking at your ss k?
 
Sounds good Lori, thanks tons!

I’ll prob do another test in two hours or so, and then pmps.

So I’ll try to keep the spreadsheet current even if I can’t post here right away.
 
just looked...interestesting that not alot has happened...looks kind of flat since last night.
sometimes i hear that flat means too much insulin. robin knows about that one i think. will be very interested in what the day holds.
 
So here is a number that made me scratch my head....

+9.5 297

But I guess it's not that different than 304 now that I think about it.....
 
So if he holds steady or close to that for pmps, do we just keep the dose the same at 2 units?
What if he goes high?
 
well i would half suspect he will go higher as that is the nature of the insulin...to curve.
at this rate i think another cycle is in order.
i mean if he goes red or black it's likely you'll want to raise dose. And I could'nt fault you for that.
But if he is pink again...go for the ride as he has yet to show us anything. numbers are not up or down...just static.
 
Huuummmm interesting. I would either hold the dose or drop it again to maybe 1.5u.

He didn't skyrocket and you're right it looks pretty much the same as the higher dose.
 
And prozync doesn’t have a shed, or they don’t hold it in their bodies? So todays numbers wouldn’t be from “left over” insulin?
Hard to believe he could have roughly the same numbers on 2.8 as 2.0.

Hmmmm, can momma’s nerves take another drop? ;)

If we do drop I’d prob go to 1.6 since we are using U100 needles and my eyes are old :)
 
How about approaching it as an experiment---not that you are looking for a "right" answer, but you will pick a dose and observe the response, with the idea that eventually this will lead to a more informed dose? No choice is bad, just giving you an opportunity to observe.
 
Ok, Tom and I wrung our hands together, and we’re gonna try the 1.6 tonight. Please god, let this be the right decision.

We’ll keep ya posted.

Breathe Donna, remember to breathe ;)
 
oh gosh, late to the party. i was gonna say give this dose another day. ya know...to let it be definet.
then....
but we are where we are...
crossing paws.
lori
and thomas.

read on community about tomtom's new name....it was NOT my idea!
 
Judy, what a great explaination.

No, there is no shed with Prozinc. Some think there may be some overlap from PS to PS but for the most part the insulin is out of his system after 12 hours.

The numbers you see today are his bg's on the last dose you shot.
 
no i don't think if he's been over dosed that would necessarily be the case...just IMHO
i think the jury is still out on the pro zinc shed.
 
Dunno if anyone is around yet, but I went to calm down and plant some seeds out in the garden. Meanwhile both kitties fell asleep on the kitchen table :-D

So, we shoot early in the morning, I have to ask lots of scenario questions now.

If he holds his own and if by some miracle we get a 200’s preshoot, I would think we’d stay with the dose.
What if he’s in the 300’s 400’s? Heaven forbid, higher?

I am going back to look over last night’s discussion again and to take some notes.
 
I think we’re all hopin' for some miracles here in PZ land Kim! Thanks for your good vibes, I’m sendin’ some right back atcha :)
Us mommas need a break :shock:

:mrgreen:
 
Actually you only lowered the dose .4u which in the grand scheme of things isn't that much.

You can expect some new dose wonkyness.

If you get another yellow, yay, stay the course. If he spikes high, either ride it out one more cycle or raise him back up.

I think you are a good candidate for one of the L's, you should start doing your due diligence.
 
I was just nosing around over on Lev. Starting all over again scares me (what doesn’t these days). And I have a new vet and one of my requirements was that I got a vet that used ProZync, so I have no idea if he uses anything else or would be on board with a switch.

I think I am gonna see how this test goes, then if we are still having crap numbers, call my vet to discuss what he thinks I should do, then I could discuss other insulins with him at that point or shortly thereafter. I really feel to be fair I can’t just drop this on him. He is a reasonable guy and I like him a lot.

I think Prozinc is worth one last shot, but I need to do what is best for Asher.

Does anyone else get exhausted from these constant decisions? We all have to do it. I make a lot of decisions being self employed and helping an elderly Mom, but this dosing thing pushes me over the edge some days.
 
not anymore. well, rarely. it's not always this hard once you get a handle on what you are willing and able to do with any confidence. it will happen.
 
donnahc said:
Does anyone else get exhausted from these constant decisions? We all have to do it. I make a lot of decisions being self employed and helping an elderly Mom, but this dosing thing pushes me over the edge some days.

I'm over exhausted from it! LOL! I'm on the verge of tears pretty often. Thumper was just diagnosed April 1 but that seems like an eternity ago. Everyday I keep thinking I will get it the next day but then we have a different situation. :YMSIGH:
 
Yes, Donna, I do! I really dislike dosing decisions---isn't that a hoot after all my sage advice. And I dislike them even more when they are for another person's cat, because I feel so damn responsible if I give bad advice. I am capable of being just as hard on myself as you are! I do have a different perspective, however, which comes from my experience with Squamee. I have some work to do now, but if it's not too late when I am done, I will post some of my history and maybe that can give you a feel for a different perspective.
 
We’ve been at this just about 4 months and some days it feels like 4 years ;) It’s worth every ounce of effort tho for the kitties that we love so. cat_pet_icon
 
if i may? the mommies have to try to develope a bit of confidence. Certain folks here do have multiple problems going on and I understand it can all get to be one big overwhelming ball of .....overwhelm!
but if you feel you are being careful...it's ok.
i cannot think of a cat here who has died or became deathly ill from hypo. it may have happened but i have not seen it.
that is not to say we have'nt all treated hypo's.
i think some hypo's go unnoticed and untreated....only known by a crazy rebound number.

the highs which are more frustrating..i think...are less deadly (unless you have ketones) but more upsetting. they have more hang time .... they are harder to treat.

everyone has their hypo things available right?
everyone should have someone's phone # for emergency i think.
you can always post on health if no one is here.
but in reality...you know what to do...

it's a steep learning curve until one day....it's .... not anymore
you will all get there!

Lori
and Lord Thomas
 
Very true Lori.
It’s easy to get wrapped up in your own drama, real or perceived or both.
We all have things to work on in this lifetime I guess :)
 
donna i was sorry to see you reduce dose so soon...because i wanted to be as sure as possible that the 2u was doing what we thought it was doing.
being that i am so often wrong...i hopefully am wrong now and that step down will prove to be insightful...in a good way.
are you still wanting to set scenario's for the amps tomorow?
 
Yes, that would be great since we shoot at 6:30am est :)

So, if he’s in the 200s stay the course.
300’s?
400’s?
Worse?

How quickly can we go back up safely?
 
Nice +3 :-D !!!! It about the same drop as you got the last time you shot 2.7u.

200 - stay the course.
300 - stay the course ?
400 - I'd go back to 2u.
 
are you getting any more spot checks tonight?
if not than yeah to what rob said. stay the course unless you see red.
if you get a spot check and he is lower...let's say blue or heavens to betsy green..stay the course no matter what you get in the morning..even if it's black! it's rebound.
 
i'm sooooo happy with your +3 i could dance dancing_cat dancing_cat dancing_cat we need some success around here!
 
I wasn’t gonna spot check tonight, but now I really wanna after the +3.

So I think I can at least get a +6. After that I may be comatose :lol:
 
i don't see too many 50 point drops on your ss. so something good is happening :mrgreen:
 
Flat curve usually means the dose is too low. The exception is a high (like red) flat curve that can be a sign of chronic rebound, which you only get after a period of repeated acute rebound, which does not apply to 99% of the cats here. I just posted a blurb on this in another thread with a kitty who is also trying a reduction and seeing similar #s on both doses. See Dmartini & Shakes's latest!
 
Thanks Joanna, I just read that. I am still unsure as to what is happening for us. But I feel I just have to know if he had to much insulin where we left off at 2.8.
I am more than happy to increase. I think he will def need to be increased but i just don’t know how much yet. I am def gonna give Prozync my best shot. I would love it if I didn’t have to change.

One day at a time I guess.
 
Hi Donna,
Here is my history. It is very long and please don’t feel you have to read the whole thing if it is too much. I just reread it, but can’t bear to edit it. I guess the bottom line is that the diabetes was just a tiny blip among all her medical problems. Don’t get me wrong, I struggled with insulin doses (and Gator, Robin and Joanna were invaluable), but I knew she was in pain and probably dying, so mostly I just wanted to keep her as comfortable as possible, and the doses were not so important. I still struggle with the “what if’s” (what if I had given more insulin, what if I had hospitalized her, what if I had waited to euthanize her, what if I had euthanized her sooner), but when I realize that is what I am doing I look at myself in the mirror and I say “CUT IT OUT!!!” “You loved her and you took care of her the very best you knew how. Maybe someone else could have done it better, but even if that is so, you did all that you could do and you do not deserve to be tortured for what happened. Retire your internal slave driver and be nice to yourself!!!”
I am including a link to the Youtube video I made to show her symptoms. (it also shows how very beautiful she was). It can be searched for under Feline Orofacial Pain Syndrome . Squamee Oct 2010.
Hope this helps. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4X4lrZgORIQ

Sept 21, 2010.
A year and a half ago Squamee developed what looked like a jaw symptom. She would start eating and then move her jaw around like she was trying to dislodge something stuck in her mouth, while pawing at the sides of her face. There was also a slight clicking noise. She would stop eating and return again a few minutes later. Sometimes she would then be able to eat. She was put on long acting steroids which resolved the problem and she developed diabetes. She was on insulin (PZI) for several months and then went OTJ on Aug 20 2009. This August (2010) the jaw symptom returned. It did not respond to oral medicam. My vet thought it might be a tooth or TMJ. I took her to a dental specialist who could find nothing amiss on oral examination, but with x-rays found a badly rotten tooth which was extracted on Sept 7. That night she was able to eat more freely (anaesthesia?) and in the following days was on buprenex, but the difficulty eating got worse.. Gave injections of Medicam and Buprenex which seemed to help for a short while. Then did x-rays of skull to look for bone spurs(?) and also sonogram of stomach which showed nothing. Said the next step would be endoscopy and if that showed nothing, a cat scan. These were with the idea that perhaps there was some form of cancer. On Sept 17 she had a seizure, which the vet believes is the result of a brain tumor, which would also account for the mouth problem. If we are willing to consider brain surgery, a cat scan is now in order. The scan would be $1000 and the surgery in the area of $5000. (and we have already spent several thousand). I am not in a position to do this, much as it breaks my heart.
So at the moment, I am testing her BG daily, and the vet says if it stabilizes in the mid 300’s he will put her on insulin. He doesn’t want to do it at lower numbers because low blood sugar increases the likelihood of seizures. At the moment she is staying in the mid to upper 200’s. He says if the seizures become frequent, he can try giving her phenobarbitol. Currently, she is able to eat, although I do see just a little of the mouth symptom. She sleeps a lot, and doesn’t really seem herself.

April 2011
Squamee’s jaw problem got much worse and interfered with her eating. Gave her steroids, which did not work. Diabetes returned full blast. Back on insulin. I discovered info on the internet which perfectly described her jaw symptom. It was called feline orofacial pain syndrome, and was thought to be a form of trigeminal neuralgia (which is excruciating in humans). Cause unkown, but frequently related to dental problems. Treatment is with Phenobarbital and gabapentin (neuroleptics which address nerve pain).
I worked with the vet to treat this, which was extremely difficult as Squamee was impossible to pill. She would fight and even if I managed to get it down her throat she would spit it up or vomit it. I tried hiding it in different foods, etc, which sometimes worked for days or even a few weeks, but then she would no longer take it. Tried compounded flavored liquids which she would spit out. Finally gave phenobarb in transdermal gel which worked enough so that she could eat some.
Meanwhile,she developed kidney problems, bowel problems, (and was equally impossible to medicate) and inappetance. Her BG levels were unregulated. Vet kept pushing me to increase, but since I was never sure if she was going to eat, I was reluctant.
She spent weeks lying on my couch under a blanket. She ate less and less and lost a considerable amount of weight. I began giving subQ fluids which did not seem to help.
She developed DKA. She spent hours standing over her water bowl---she looked like she was thirsty but unable to drink. Sometimes she would lie down next to her bowl. Othertimes she just stood over her bowl with her head drooping, and even in the water.
Vet said he could hospitalize her and might be able to get her through this episode, would take a week in the hospital. Squamee HATED the place. All the vets told me what a terror she was when she was there, they had great difficulty when she was originally diagnosed with diabetes and they could barely give her shots. She became a screaming hissing biting banshee. I could not do that to her when there was no reason to believe the underlying problem would be solved. We euthanized her on Dec 20, 2010.
 
Oh Judy, I can definitely see why you have a different perspective after all of that. (((((((Hugs))))))) Wow. You ARE the awesomest kitty mom ever :)
I know the decision to euthanize is excruciating. I battled with that with my last cat China. She had pancreatic failure. Somehow you just know when it’s time. And it absolutely is the most kind and selfless but hardest thing to do.

We have to truly enjoy each and every day with our furry creatures. Health is a blessing.

Thanks so much for sharing that. I am sure everyone will be interested to read it and understand what you went thru.
:YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
 
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