? Any Success With MORE Carbs and potentially more insulin?

PirateLuke

PirateLuke

Member Since 2026
Hi all,
Pirate Luke's nadirs have become earlier. He sometimes drops very quickly into blue or green and he's at pinks, and reds afterwards rather than having a smooth curve. I've had to reduce insulin multiple times to stop hypo numbers.

I used to give him a Milk & Yoghurt LickeLix to train him to accept shots. I no longer do. I thought removing it wouldn't make any difference as people said it's only 2.2% carb and his regular food is 2% carb anyway. But the LickeLix is actually 11.4% carb if you look at DRY MATTER not "as fed". As fed number includes the water.

I do feed snacks early in the cycle, but they are all 2% carb. I'm wondering whether to switch to 9% carb food for shots and then perhaps 2% for later snacks? I'm guessing he'd be needing more insulin again if I did that.

I'm saving his LickeLix for "Libre-fitting" bribes as I have been doing it myself recently. He is not interested in zero carb Freeze-dried snacks!

I am also aware this could be bouncing. His numbers have been unpredictable recently due to a few fur shots, him breaking into his sister's high carb hepatic food, and me reducing multiple times due to low numbers then trying to go back up.

Any insight welcomed. Thanks!
Beth and Pirate Luke
 
What insulin are you using? on the Spreadsheet on the right top, you will see a slot for current insulin, please type the name of the insulin Pirate is using, a diabetic cat needs to have a diet of wet can or raw foods between 0-10%, switching from low to carbs considering the BG, will only cause an up and down effect on Pirate's BG, some cats are very sensitive to carbs and it can stay in their system for a while, and you are correct the Dry Matter Carb is what you want to watch out for, keeping a feeding regimen is important, are you feeding several time a day at least 3-4 small meals plus the two main meals after shots snacks is important to keep the insulin in check throughout the day, most members use Fancy Feast Pates between 0-10% carbs most feed up to 5% below is a Drs approved food chart, the third column contains the carb %, is good to have a HYPO KIT, this includes some medium carbs between 11-15% and some high carb food between 16-24%, usually they are the gravy foods, as well as some KARO syrup or honey, this is in case the BG is 50 or lower, although there are some gravies that are low carbs such as the Fancy Feast Medley, Chicken Fare in a savory broth, .my cats loves them since they are chunky and is only 4.5%
a Non-Diabetic's' cat glucose is between 50-120, so is good to stabilize

Info - Dr. Pierson - new Food Chart
 
Hi @CORKY Hope you're well, Maria! Thanks for the info.

Pirate Luke is on Lantus. I put that on the spreadsheet. It's appearing on mine, so not sure why you can't see it.

Yes, he's been on 2% carb wet food for ages now, and I usually use slightly higher carb wet food if he's going a bit low. Yes I have a hypo hit with a different range of carb levels plus honey :) He gets a full sachet at shot times, and multiple snacks, especially in the morning.

I'm in the UK. I don't think we have Fancy Feast. I have mainly been using Harringtons, which is 2% carb.

So most people feed up to 5%? Hmmm. That's really helpful to know. This is the spreadsheet for UK foods: I might have an experiment with some different carb levels.

Today, I did give him half a sachet of the 9% carb Felix at about +2 after his shot and it has definitely smoothed the curve and moved the nadir later! We're at -2 from shot time and he's still in blue numbers. Yay!

I do have some 4.4% carb at home so maybe I will try that this evening and see what happens, then look at getting some 4-6% carb foods to try.
 
PirateLuke said:
Hi @CORKY Hope you're well, Maria! Thanks for the info.

Pirate Luke is on Lantus. I put that on the spreadsheet. It's appearing on mine, so not sure why you can't see it.

Yes, he's been on 2% carb wet food for ages now, and I usually use slightly higher carb wet food if he's going a bit low. Yes I have a hypo hit with a different range of carb levels plus honey :) He gets a full sachet at shot times, and multiple snacks, especially in the morning.

I'm in the UK. I don't think we have Fancy Feast. I have mainly been using Harringtons, which is 2% carb.

So most people feed up to 5%? Hmmm. That's really helpful to know. This is the spreadsheet for UK foods: I might have an experiment with some different carb levels.

Today, I did give him half a sachet of the 9% carb Felix at about +2 after his shot and it has definitely smoothed the curve and moved the nadir later! We're at -2 from shot time and he's still in blue numbers. Yay!

I do have some 4.4% carb at home so maybe I will try that this evening and see what happens, then look at getting some 4-6% carb foods to try.
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Considering by looking at Pirate's SS his BG levels are quite high, so the lower the carbs in his food the better, are you feeding several times a day at least 3-4 small meals or snacks, if you are not home during the day you may want to consider a wet food feeder some have cameras and/or chips, you are doing a great job, Pirate has a good mamma
P.S
you may look at Corky's SS and scroll to the left, see remarks, you can see what, when and how much I feed every day, I feed the same food every day, 4 different flavors, I also have another cat Coco non-diabetic, I feed 1/2cn in each meal and they are both quite satisfied, Corky is a very very large cat weighs 16.5 and Coco is 1/2 Main Coon and weighs 22 Lbs
 
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Some cats actually do better when fed higher LC, just depends on the cat. Might be worth experimenting to see what works best for Pirate Luke. That might mean a 6-9%. That said, I wouldn’t fixate too much on exact % carbs, since it is often the case that manufactured food will have ranges of minimums and maximums so different batches of food won’t be precisely the same.

Feeding Lowest/Zero Carb vs Lower Carb Foods

A comment, if I may, regarding dosing. With SLGS you want to hold the reduced dose for 7 days, then evaluate based on your data whether a dose adjustment is required. Typically you are looking nadirs between 90-149. Anytime you get a blood glucose number of under 90 with SLGS, you reduce the dose by 0.25u immediately.
 
CORKY said:
Considering by looking at Pirate's SS his BG levels are quite high, so the lower the carbs in his food the better, are you feeding several times a day at least 3-4 small meals or snacks, if you are not home during the day you may want to consider a wet food feeder some have cameras and/or chips, you are doing a great job, Pirate has a good mamma
P.S
you may look at Corky's SS and scroll to the left, see remarks, you can see what, when and how much I feed every day, I feed the same food every day, 4 different flavors, I also have another cat Coco non-diabetic, I feed 1/2cn in each meal and they are both quite satisfied, Corky is a very very large cat weighs 16.5 and Coco is 1/2 Main Coon and weighs 22 Lbs
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Wow, Corky's numbers are great! We've never had anything like that. But Pirate Luke was doing much better on more carbs and more insulin. For a while, he was on 1.75 units with the 11% carb treat routine at shot time, neither too high or low, but within renal threshold. I just think he needs more carbs to smooth out the curve so I can give him more insulin.
 
Christie & Maverick said:
Some cats actually do better when fed higher LC, just depends on the cat. Might be worth experimenting to see what works best for Pirate Luke. That might mean a 6-9%. That said, I wouldn’t fixate too much on exact % carbs, since it is often the case that manufactured food will have ranges of minimums and maximums so different batches of food won’t be precisely the same.

Feeding Lowest/Zero Carb vs Lower Carb Foods

A comment, if I may, regarding dosing. With SLGS you want to hold the reduced dose for 7 days, then evaluate based on your data whether a dose adjustment is required. Typically you are looking nadirs between 90-149. Anytime you get a blood glucose number of under 90 with SLGS, you reduce the dose by 0.25u immediately.
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Thanks for that. Yes I think too few carbs makes Pirate Luke very "bouncy" tbh. He has also seemed a LOT hungrier and more restless since I dropped the 11% carb treat even when he's below renal threshold, which never happened before.

I will try a few different percentages which are supposed to be around the 5% mark and see how that suits him (and if he will eat them!) If not, I know he will happily eat the Felix 9% carb.
 
Sounds good. I see naughty Luke got into some contraband lol. Have you tried checking any of the Libre 50s with a handheld meter? Any thoughts about possibly trying TR dosing method? That might help you hold doses longer and /or increase sooner than SLGS would, especially if he is not eating dry food.
 
PirateLuke said:
Thanks for that. Yes I think too few carbs makes Pirate Luke very "bouncy" tbh. He has also seemed a LOT hungrier and more restless since I dropped the 11% carb treat even when he's below renal threshold, which never happened before.

I will try a few different percentages which are supposed to be around the 5% mark and see how that suits him (and if he will eat them!) If not, I know he will happily eat the Felix 9% carb.
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With high BGs cats tend to be much more hungry, I will tag a member that can give a better input on Lantus to all your concerns and can also give you dosing advice, I do not give dosing advice, Stay positive
@Wendy&Neko
Could you give dosing advice for Pirate, Thank you
 
Christie & Maverick said:
Sounds good. I see naughty Luke got into some contraband lol. Have you tried checking any of the Libre 50s with a handheld meter? Any thoughts about possibly trying TR dosing method? That might help you hold doses longer and /or increase sooner than SLGS would, especially if he is not eating dry food.
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He is a Pirate by name, Pirate by nature! :D 🏴‍☠️ Looting his sister's food indeed!

I don't do blood tests. That is not practical for me. I go by the Libre plus clinical signs. I know the Libre can over-estimate or under-estimate numbers but it's great for trends, and his symptoms of being too high or low tend to be clear. He gets ravenous at some of the lows so I know that number is more-or-less right. Other lows, not so much, so I assume they are a bit off.

We are not especially aiming for tight regulation right now, although I have looked at the protocol and do take some of its points into consideration. I don't strictly do SLGS. I am adapting the longer we go on with this and the more I know his patterns. He was only diagnosed 8 months ago and is a complex case.

He's young and never been overweight. It seems he has juvenile diabetes. He only got sick after a life-threatening infection, poor fella. Even the vets (which are the Royal Vets College, so the best of the best) say he is a very unusual case. It could be that inflammation from the infection kicked it off, or possibly steroids he'd had previously. But even those factors do not quite explain it.

He has never had DKA so I'm more worried about hypos than hyperglycemia overall. Especially as no-one really knows why he has this. I do not want to risk insulin overdose. So we are mainly SLSG with some modification based on his personal patterns.
 
Thank you for sharing some additional context, I didn’t have a chance to look back on some of your previous posts. If I can offer just another high level perspective, having used Lantus in the past for several years, I would still continue with SLGS as written for a little longer, since you have only just started that insulin in March of this year. Particularly too if you do decide to experiment with higher LC foods, since that might change what you understand to be current known patterns. SLGS can involve getting higher preshots, but as long as you can achieve nadirs in the range I mentioned previously, then that is kind of where you will be at. What is your usual feeding schedule for him?

Since you have the benefit of the Libre, I would watch for fast onsets, so if you see a good drop by +2, feed a little higher LC and see if that helps prop him up. Sometimes the bounces are more pronounced with fast and large drops. Feed a little LC or higher LC through to nadir depending on the BG numbers you see. Since nadirs can move around, once you see that he has nadired, try and avoid feeding after that. From your notes, he is hungry a lot. Do you have a current weight and idea of how many calories a day he gets? Does your vet think he is at ideal weight (i.e. not underweight)? Sorry for the questions, just trying to see where I might be able to help a little.
 
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Christie & Maverick said:
Thank you for sharing some additional context, I didn’t have a chance to look back on some of your previous posts. If I can offer just another high level perspective, having used Lantus in the past for several years, I would still continue with SLGS as written for a little longer, since you have only just started that insulin in March of this year. Particularly too if you do decide to experiment with higher LC foods, since that might change what you understand to be current known patterns. SLGS can involve getting higher preshots, but as long as you can achieve nadirs in the range I mentioned previously, then that is kind of where you will be at. What is your usual feeding schedule for him?

Since you have the benefit of the Libre, I would watch for fast onsets, so if you see a good drop by +2, feed a little higher LC and see if that helps prop him up. Sometimes the bounces are more pronounced with fast and large drops. Feed a little LC or higher LC through to nadir depending on the BG numbers you see. Since nadirs can move around, once you see that he has nadired, try and avoid feeding after that. From your notes, he is hungry a lot. Do you have a current weight and idea of how many calories a day he gets? Does your vet think he is at ideal weight (i.e. not underweight)? Sorry for the questions, just trying to see where I might be able to help a little.
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Lantus has generally been a godsend; he was on Prozinc before and it was too short-acting. It's a shame I don't have the big gap on the spreadsheet for you. I have all my notes and numbers on the Libre. I didn't need to ask questions then as he was doing pretty well and not as hungry and bouncy like he is now.

We cautiously raised to 2.5 units in April and that was too much. So we reduced by 0.25 each time right down to down to 1.75. And by then, I'd dropped the higher carb treat, not knowing it was THAT high carb. So yeah things are a bit of a muddle now.

I feed him while giving the AM shot and then tend to feed him a snack at +2-3. And then 1-3 times more depending on how hungry he is. If he's having a crazy hungry day, I just give him more because he will be going mad and trying to get into the bin and everything if I don't. It's only been 2% carb snacks up until (unless he's low and heading down) now so snacks don't cause any highs. He gets fed at PM shot then sometimes one snack after that. And then he sleeps with me and doesn't eat again til morning.

Sorry I don't know the calories or weight currently. Last time we weighed him at the vet, he was just over 6kg. But he's a big long cat! His body condition is good. When he first got diagnosed he was 4kg and looking awfully skinny.

Tonight I gave him the 9% carb food WITH his shot. Looks like that was a mistake as he shot up. Heading slowly down now at 2.5+ so I will test with some food around 5% tomorrow. Or do what I did this morning and give him 2% carb meal with shot then 9% snack at +2. That seems to be when the insulin starts kicking in,

Thanks for your help. We are in a bit of a mess right now. Oh well; we will get there!
 
Could be a little bounce from 101 today. Calorie intake is based on age, activity level among other things. There are a few calorie calculators, might be worth checking his weight and looking at how much he is eating in a day. I can find a few calculators for you if you’d like, just to use as possible comparisons in gauging if he is getting enough calories during the day.
 
Christie & Maverick said:
Could be a little bounce from 101 today. Calorie intake is based on age, activity level among other things. There are a few calorie calculators, might be worth checking his weight and looking at how much he is eating in a day. I can find a few calculators for you if you’d like, just to use as possible comparisons in gauging if he is getting enough calories during the day.
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His calories will be all over the place right now. I will try to weigh him later. I've sprained my back and can't do it until I have a friend to hold him steady on the scales.

I gave him 4.4% carb food with his AM shot and he's starting to shoot down to blue at 1.5+, so I will give him the 9% carb as a snack at +2.

Looking at all the data I have, I suspect that a higher carb snack post-shot at about +2 will be important.
 
Good luck with the food experiment! Lots of data with the Libre, for sure. You want to give just enough carbs at onset and as you go through to nadir. That’s also part of the experiment, seeing what works and what doesn’t. Feeding after nadir can often put the brakes on whatever remaining duration is left of the dose, especially for carb sensitive cats.
 
Hi Beth, I peeked at Pirate Luke’s SS again, and see you had quite the active cycle earlier. I think if it were me, I’d really try a reduction to 1u. Looks like he’s saying for now, 1.25u is too much insulin. I appreciate it is hard when they bounce, having had a cat who did his fair share of bouncing over the course of his sugar dance of 8 ish years, but I would encourage you to make your dose decisions based on his nadirs. If you have to go back up, so be it, that too is part of the dance.
 
Christie & Maverick said:
Hi Beth, I peeked at Pirate Luke’s SS again, and see you had quite the active cycle earlier. I think if it were me, I’d really try a reduction to 1u. Looks like he’s saying for now, 1.25u is too much insulin. I appreciate it is hard when they bounce, having had a cat who did his fair share of bouncing over the course of his sugar dance of 8 ish years, but I would encourage you to make your dose decisions based on his nadirs. If you have to go back up, so be it, that too is part of the dance.
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Yeah this is partly why you can see different levels of insulin all over the place for the last week or two. I was having to keep going down (and trying to go up again).

After yesterday morning's fiasco, last night I went back to what I used to do and seemed to work for him, which is 85g sachet of 2% carb with 10g 11% Lickelix to top it. His nadir was 7.2mmoll (129.6 in US numbers) on the 1.25 units with only a snack of 2% carb a few hours after.

I have tried that again this morning as I can intervene if he does decide to crash but no signs of it yet at +1. Fingers crossed!
 
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