And now...EPI!

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marisofigia

Member Since 2020
Good morning @Critter Mom @Sienne and Gabby (GA) @Aleluia Grugru & Minnie @kalypso @CB Terri @jt and trouble (GA) @Scdal , and all!

This is my third thread for Maya (part 1, part 2), my 12-year-old companion who was diagnosed with diabetes late this summer, and whose health took a turn for the worse real quick. Diarrhea has been going on for a month now, and she only just started eating normally (she lost a lot of weight fast initially).

I've finally received Maya's exam results and logged them in the LABS tag of the spreadsheet (I didn't see that naming anywhere, so I just added 3 rows).

B12 is sky high, folate also. fTLI below normal. Vet says she's got EPI. And vet seems quite concerned, as if it's a death sentence...

Maya was prescribed that she takes every day Eradia (0,26 ml of 125 mg/ml bottle twice a day), WeNzyme, and Vivomixx (half a pill). Articlox once a week.

I wanted to get your opinions before going forward.
 
A quick google showed me this:

https://www.vetfolio.com/learn/arti...t-2-exocrine-pancreatic-insufficiency-in-cats

"Chronic pancreatitis is the most common cause of EPI in cats.""


CLINICAL SIGNS

Clinical signs associated with EPI in cats include the classic “big 3” of chronic diarrhea, weight loss, and increased appetite. These signs are nonspecific, however, and can occur with other conditions besides EPI, including inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), hyperthyroidism, and even occasionally with chronic low grade lymphocytic lymphoma of the small intestine. Polyphagia can also occur in cats with diabetes mellitus and with corticosteroid therapy. EPI and diabetes mellitus may also occur concurrently. There are many causes of weight loss in cats, including chronic kidney disease, dental and periodontal disease, heart failure, neoplasia, IBD, and liver disease. Also note that not every cat with EPI has diarrhea and EPI should be considered in cats with unexplained weight loss with or without diarrhea.


Diarrhea in cats with EPI is often loose or semi-formed, voluminous, and malodorous. The feces may be lighter in color than normal, e.g., tan or “clay” colored. There is increased frequency. There is a high fat content in the feces and this can occasionally cause a greasy appearance on the haircoat of the perineum and tail head. I have also observed cats with severe IBD without concurrent EPI to have this same appearance."

Then: (AND NOTE THE VERY LAST SENTENCE WAAAY DOWN BELOW*)

"fTLI

A variety of tests have been used in the past for diagnosis of EPI in cats but most have been unreliable. The fTLI assay is by far the test of choice today. There are only two assays for fTLI available worldwide. One is available through the Texas A&M Gastrointestinal Laboratory and the other is available in Europe. The current reference range for the Texas A&M serum fTLI assay is 12 to 82 µg/L, with values of 8 µg/L or lower being diagnostic for EPI. The fTLI assay quantifies the amount of trypsin and related compounds in the bloodstream. This includes trypsinogen, which is the inactive zymogen of trypsin. In healthy cats significant amounts of trypsin do not circulate in the bloodstream, whereas trypsinogen is expected to be found in significant amounts.

This test involves obtaining a serum sample after fasting the animal for 12 to 18 hours. Serum TLI has been validated for use in both dogs and cats (cTLI and fTLI). Most cats develop EPI as a result of chronic pancreatitis. The fTLI may actually be high initially (in association with pancreatitis), and then over time it will gradually decrease until it reaches a diagnostic range for EPI. It should be noted that occasionally a cat with signs very consistent with EPI will not have a fTLI result in the diagnostic range. Usually the fTLI will be in the low end of the reference range for normal in these patients. Eventually these cats will reach a point where the fTLI is in the diagnostic range. The main point is that, if there are signs consistent with EPI and treatment for any other conditions that have been diagnosed (e.g., IBD, hypocobalaminemia) are not resolving the clinical signs, treatment for EPI with digestive enzymes should also be instituted. A positive response to therapy will help confirm the presence of EPI. The serum fTLI may also be noted to be in the diagnostic range when it is rechecked one to several months after the initial “gray zone” result.

TREATMENT OF CATS WITH EPI

Therapy for EPI involves dietary supplementation of pancreatic enzymes. Any concurrent disorders that have been identified must also be addressed. Supplementation with cobalamin is added if levels are low, as is the case with many EPI cats. Specific dietary therapy is not required (e.g., fat restriction to any degree).

Most cats are treated with a commercial preparation of dried pancreatic extract of bovine or porcine origin (e.g., Viokase, Pancrezyme, Epizyme). A powdered preparation is more effective than tablets or capsules and is the only form recommended. Enteric products should be avoided. The starting dose is ½ to 1 teaspoon mixed with each meal. Cats do not like the taste and do not accept enzyme replacement powder in their food as well as dogs and so it is best to thoroughly mix the powder in canned food in order to more effectively mask its presence. If this does not work, try mixing the powder in some fish oil and stirring it into the food. The enzymes can also be packed into gelatin capsules. If these steps fail, raw pancreas can be used. Raw beef, pork, or game pancreas can be obtained from butcher shops. Raw pancreas obtained in bulk is chopped and portioned into individual meal dose sizes and kept frozen until ready to use. Fresh-frozen raw pancreas can be kept frozen for several months without losing efficacy. The dose is 30 to 60 grams of raw chopped pancreas per meal. There is no need to pre-incubate enzymes in the food for any period of time before feeding, or to add gastric acid reducing drugs.

Most cats respond rapidly to enzyme replacement therapy and stools should be normal by 3 to 4 days after the start of therapy, if EPI is the only disorder. If there is a limited response to therapy, other problems may be present and must be treated (e.g., as previously discussed other disorders could include diabetes mellitus, IBD, villous atrophy, hyperthyroidism, hypocobalaminemia). Pure cobalamin is administered subcutaneously at a starting dose of 150 to 250 µg per cat based on body size. Injections are given once weekly for 6 weeks, followed by an injection every other week for 6 weeks, and then one more dose a month later. The serum cobalamin level should be rechecked one month after the last does. Some cats with EPI may require lifelong therapy.

Once clinical signs have been well under control, the amount of enzyme supplementation that is provided with each meal can be gradually reduced to the lowest effective dose, which may vary from patient to patient and also between different batches of the pancreatic supplement.

There are no studies detailing the effect of various types of diets on feline patients with EPI. In general, most cats do well on a commercial maintenance type diet. Low fat diets should be avoided because of their lower caloric density. High fiber diets should also not be fed because some types of dietary fiber interfere with pancreatic enzyme activity.

PROGNOSIS

EPI is associated with irreversible loss of pancreatic acinar tissue in most cases. Recovery is not expected and lifelong therapy should be anticipated. However, with careful monitoring and prompt management of any other problems, a normal lifespan can usually be enjoyed."

A *NORMAL LIFE*. Not a 'death sentence'. It is manageable.
It looks to me like it will require some research, for sure, and some balancing of diet because cats with EPI must have some fat in their diet and not a high-fibre diet.
But the powdered pancreatic enzyme - the WENZYME already prescribed (or maybe better and easier to get would be raw pancreas from pork/beef/game at 30-60 grams raw & chopped per meal might be less cost-prohibitive?)) at least is obtainable. Local butcher shops or grocery chains could provide this, and it can be frozen in meal-sized portions.

Google can be very helpful to find explanations and definitions that are clearer to understand than doctors and vets sometimes make things.

Glad you have asked about this here, I had not heard of EPI before now.
 
A quick google showed me this:

https://www.vetfolio.com/learn/arti...t-2-exocrine-pancreatic-insufficiency-in-cats

"Chronic pancreatitis is the most common cause of EPI in cats.""


CLINICAL SIGNS

Clinical signs associated with EPI in cats include the classic “big 3” of chronic diarrhea, weight loss, and increased appetite. These signs are nonspecific, however, and can occur with other conditions besides EPI, including inflammatory bowel disease (IBD), hyperthyroidism, and even occasionally with chronic low grade lymphocytic lymphoma of the small intestine. Polyphagia can also occur in cats with diabetes mellitus and with corticosteroid therapy. EPI and diabetes mellitus may also occur concurrently. There are many causes of weight loss in cats, including chronic kidney disease, dental and periodontal disease, heart failure, neoplasia, IBD, and liver disease. Also note that not every cat with EPI has diarrhea and EPI should be considered in cats with unexplained weight loss with or without diarrhea.


Diarrhea in cats with EPI is often loose or semi-formed, voluminous, and malodorous. The feces may be lighter in color than normal, e.g., tan or “clay” colored. There is increased frequency. There is a high fat content in the feces and this can occasionally cause a greasy appearance on the haircoat of the perineum and tail head. I have also observed cats with severe IBD without concurrent EPI to have this same appearance."

Then: (AND NOTE THE VERY LAST SENTENCE WAAAY DOWN BELOW*)

"fTLI

A variety of tests have been used in the past for diagnosis of EPI in cats but most have been unreliable. The fTLI assay is by far the test of choice today. There are only two assays for fTLI available worldwide. One is available through the Texas A&M Gastrointestinal Laboratory and the other is available in Europe. The current reference range for the Texas A&M serum fTLI assay is 12 to 82 µg/L, with values of 8 µg/L or lower being diagnostic for EPI. The fTLI assay quantifies the amount of trypsin and related compounds in the bloodstream. This includes trypsinogen, which is the inactive zymogen of trypsin. In healthy cats significant amounts of trypsin do not circulate in the bloodstream, whereas trypsinogen is expected to be found in significant amounts.

This test involves obtaining a serum sample after fasting the animal for 12 to 18 hours. Serum TLI has been validated for use in both dogs and cats (cTLI and fTLI). Most cats develop EPI as a result of chronic pancreatitis. The fTLI may actually be high initially (in association with pancreatitis), and then over time it will gradually decrease until it reaches a diagnostic range for EPI. It should be noted that occasionally a cat with signs very consistent with EPI will not have a fTLI result in the diagnostic range. Usually the fTLI will be in the low end of the reference range for normal in these patients. Eventually these cats will reach a point where the fTLI is in the diagnostic range. The main point is that, if there are signs consistent with EPI and treatment for any other conditions that have been diagnosed (e.g., IBD, hypocobalaminemia) are not resolving the clinical signs, treatment for EPI with digestive enzymes should also be instituted. A positive response to therapy will help confirm the presence of EPI. The serum fTLI may also be noted to be in the diagnostic range when it is rechecked one to several months after the initial “gray zone” result.

TREATMENT OF CATS WITH EPI

Therapy for EPI involves dietary supplementation of pancreatic enzymes. Any concurrent disorders that have been identified must also be addressed. Supplementation with cobalamin is added if levels are low, as is the case with many EPI cats. Specific dietary therapy is not required (e.g., fat restriction to any degree).

Most cats are treated with a commercial preparation of dried pancreatic extract of bovine or porcine origin (e.g., Viokase, Pancrezyme, Epizyme). A powdered preparation is more effective than tablets or capsules and is the only form recommended. Enteric products should be avoided. The starting dose is ½ to 1 teaspoon mixed with each meal. Cats do not like the taste and do not accept enzyme replacement powder in their food as well as dogs and so it is best to thoroughly mix the powder in canned food in order to more effectively mask its presence. If this does not work, try mixing the powder in some fish oil and stirring it into the food. The enzymes can also be packed into gelatin capsules. If these steps fail, raw pancreas can be used. Raw beef, pork, or game pancreas can be obtained from butcher shops. Raw pancreas obtained in bulk is chopped and portioned into individual meal dose sizes and kept frozen until ready to use. Fresh-frozen raw pancreas can be kept frozen for several months without losing efficacy. The dose is 30 to 60 grams of raw chopped pancreas per meal. There is no need to pre-incubate enzymes in the food for any period of time before feeding, or to add gastric acid reducing drugs.

Most cats respond rapidly to enzyme replacement therapy and stools should be normal by 3 to 4 days after the start of therapy, if EPI is the only disorder. If there is a limited response to therapy, other problems may be present and must be treated (e.g., as previously discussed other disorders could include diabetes mellitus, IBD, villous atrophy, hyperthyroidism, hypocobalaminemia). Pure cobalamin is administered subcutaneously at a starting dose of 150 to 250 µg per cat based on body size. Injections are given once weekly for 6 weeks, followed by an injection every other week for 6 weeks, and then one more dose a month later. The serum cobalamin level should be rechecked one month after the last does. Some cats with EPI may require lifelong therapy.

Once clinical signs have been well under control, the amount of enzyme supplementation that is provided with each meal can be gradually reduced to the lowest effective dose, which may vary from patient to patient and also between different batches of the pancreatic supplement.

There are no studies detailing the effect of various types of diets on feline patients with EPI. In general, most cats do well on a commercial maintenance type diet. Low fat diets should be avoided because of their lower caloric density. High fiber diets should also not be fed because some types of dietary fiber interfere with pancreatic enzyme activity.

PROGNOSIS

EPI is associated with irreversible loss of pancreatic acinar tissue in most cases. Recovery is not expected and lifelong therapy should be anticipated. However, with careful monitoring and prompt management of any other problems, a normal lifespan can usually be enjoyed."

A *NORMAL LIFE*. Not a 'death sentence'. It is manageable.
It looks to me like it will require some research, for sure, and some balancing of diet because cats with EPI must have some fat in their diet and not a high-fibre diet.
But the powdered pancreatic enzyme - the WENZYME already prescribed (or maybe better and easier to get would be raw pancreas from pork/beef/game at 30-60 grams raw & chopped per meal might be less cost-prohibitive?)) at least is obtainable. Local butcher shops or grocery chains could provide this, and it can be frozen in meal-sized portions.

Google can be very helpful to find explanations and definitions that are clearer to understand than doctors and vets sometimes make things.

Glad you have asked about this here, I had not heard of EPI before now.
Thank you! I feel better reading this..
 
Here is something else I saw, containing powdered pig pancreas, for cats and dogs with EPI and digestive issues. This might be an acceptable source that could be less expensive than the vet - you will want to compare the labels for ingredients and amounts:

https://www.amazon.ca/Bio-Case-Enzyme-Supplement-capsules/dp/B000O5JWQO?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20

I have one cat with regular diarrhea and vomiting semi-digested food. I may get this for him but I'm going to research to see if it may be given without harmful effects to cats without diagnosed EPI.
 
καλό απόγευμα, Marisofi.

Maya's TLI Result: 10.7 (Feline reference range: 12.0 – 82.0 µg/L.)

(Suggestion: Maybe use the date that the sample was taken in the spreadsheet rather than the date the result was received as the 'snapshot' of Maya's status relates to the former - better for tracking and comparison of results, relationship to symptoms, diet at that time, etc.)

Interpretation of result (from the TAMU TLI page):

In cats, values equal to or below 8.0 µg/L are diagnostic for EPI, with values between 8.0 and 12.0 being equivocal. As in the dog, repeating the assay one month later should be considered.
[Emphasis mine]

My understanding is that where EPI is the big issue then frequently the associated malabsorption problems lead to low levels of B12/folate - not the case for Maya at the moment (good?).

Of note is that every site covering EPI in cats mentions that it is commonly seen secondary to chronic pancreatitis so, in addition to starting the recommended treatment plan, perhaps keep that particular pot on the boil with your vet? See the IDEXX guidelines listed below for further information on appropriate treatments.

EPI in Cats (PetPlace) gives a very helpful overview of EPI, including recommended diagnostics. Interestingly, they include checking for UTIs in the work-up (don't mention the relevance, but worthy of note because of Maya's UTI). One thing in particular I don't recall your mentioning is whether they carried out a faecal culture as part of the diagnostic work-up? Our member Sienne has recommended checking for these parasites:

C. Perfrinigens Enterotoxin
C. Dificile Toxin
Campylobacter
Shigella
Salmonella
Pleisomonas
Edwardsiella
Aeromonas

(Original post here - whole thread is worth a read.)

What's happening with Maya is very similar to what happened with Saoirse when she had her first - very severe - pancreatitis flare. I got to the stage where I despaired that she would ever have a solid bowel motion again. In the earlier part of the flare she had what could be considered classic EPI-style stools (steatorrhoea, pale, greyish-tan in colour, stank to the high heavens and back again) followed by a period of watery then somewhat thicker diarrhoea. I asked our vet to run an fTLI test for her but it came back at 136.7 (indicative of acute or chronic pancreatitis according to TAMU). The symptoms resolved in time (and never recurred). To the best of my recall I think it may have been finding a food that agreed with her that helped resolve the diarrhoea. I'll need to check back in her daily journal to see what worked for her in case there's something there that might help you with Maya.

(Question: Did you identify an initial trigger for the diarrhoea, e.g: introduction of a different food; course of antibiotics or other meds? My apologies if you've provided this information previously and I've missed it.)

----------------------

For the benefit of all following Maya's progress, here's info on the items prescribed:

Eradia - liquid formulation of metronidazole (the active ingredient in the metrobactin Maya was on before). Licensed for dogs in the UK. Presumably similar for Greece as an EU member state? (@tiffmaxee - I believe that there are some caveats around giving cats the dog version of a metronidazole preparation. Could you give Marisofi more info about this?)

(Question: Did your vet say why they've changed away from the metrobactin to this preparation?)

WeNzyme - Food supplement containing pancreatic enzymes, B12/folic acid, and Enterococcus faecium (probiotic - same one as in Fortiflora).

Vivomixx - Probiotic

Articlox - B12 Hydroxocobalamin (All B12 injected supplements sting a little but I picked up this anecdotal report of Articlox being a more stingy preparation in a human than some other like products on the market so thought it might be handy info for you just in case Maya were to have any issues.)

----------------------

Helpful links:

Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency -
Very good discussion of the condition with tips for best way to give enzyme supplements (courtesy of the excellent marvistavet.com website).

WSAVA: EPI in Cats - "chronic pancreatitis is believed to be the most common cause of EPI in the cat."

EPI in Cats Support Site - Information about the condition and practical tips on how to treat it, plus discussion forum.

IDEXX Feline Pancreatitis Treatment Guidelines - Everything you wanted to know about helpful pancreatitis treatments but were afraid to ask.

ibdkitties.net - Lots of info relevant to cats with GI issues, not just those with IBD (e.g. pancreatitis, probiotics and B12 info pages).

[ETA: Additional link and tips below.]


Nausea, Vomiting and Inappetence: Symptoms and Treatments - Checklist of signs to watch for: can be a guide to which foods agree best with a kitty and also act as an early warning sign of a pancreatitis flare. (Usually the faster it's treated, the quicker it will resolve.)

Additional Tips for Spotting Signs of Pain/Discomfort in Cats with Pancreatic/Intestinal Discomfort:

(1) A cat with pancreatitis may exhibit hiding behaviours or may sit in a 'tense meatloaf' position - possibly with a 'pinched' expression on its face - after eating a food that is disagreeable.

(2) A cat may seek out cooler surfaces to lie on in an effort to soothe pain/discomfort from the inflammation (of pancreas and/or intestines).


Mogs
.
 
Last edited:
I suggest that you join the feline pancreatitis group on groupsio. Digestive enzymes will be needed but yes it is treatable. Chronic pancreatitis can lead to this. I never had to deal with it though. It’s a small group, active enough but you won’t be bombarded with lots of messages and there’s lots of veterinary literature to read.
 
And vet seems quite concerned, as if it's a death sentence...
It's not. With appropriate supplementation of enzymes, etc., cats with EPI can lead long, healthy lives.

Maya's fTLI result is in the grey area, so it's possible she may not have EPI at all. As I said above, I would keep on the case with the vets about whether the root cause could possibly be chronic pancreatitis - either to rule it out or to make sure Maya gets the right treatment for it. The comments you posted about what your vet said earlier is that they regard the pancreatitis as having being completely resolved (i.e. only considering acute pancreatitis). Chronic pancreatitis symptoms tend to wax and wane in severity.


Mogs
.
 
Wow!! Some great help and data above, extra bonus points from me for your highly informative post, Crittermom!!
Tiffmaxee, good to know.

Marisofi, I did go ahead and order some powdered pancreas for 14 yr old boy Sootie, who has had yellow and very smelly loose poops for some time.

Reading through literature for dogs/cats/humans, it is mentioned as a supplement that people with digestive difficulties take on a daily/per meal basis.
Also pointed out on several cat sites where raw/natural diet is discussed, is that cats eating mice/birds and small game will eat a pancreas when eating that prey. I plan to 'SLGS' with it on his food and see how well it helps him out. But I don't fear a small amount will harm him at least, I will read up on it to see recommended weight/dosages. I will post what I find here.
 
Elise, could you explain a little further why the liquid version isn't safe for cats, please? (Very much want to learn about this myself, plus it might help Marisofi in discussions with her vets.)


Mogs
.

Cats don’t tolerate benzodes well. So you need the hydrochloride version of metronadozole which is the pill form. It smells awful so you are best to put it in a gel cap and be careful not to touch the outside. Google this for a better explanation.
 
Just noting that to my understanding epi symptoms include possible unexplained weight loss, which was not the case with Maya as her weight loss was combined with decreased appetite and intake, (maybe she didn't like the diabetic prescription food?). This may not rule out an epi diagnosis, but she doesn't seem to have this symptom for what it's worth. It would be interesting to know if she gained any weight now that she is solely on wellness core and is eating enough.
 
Maya's TLI Result: 10.7 (Feline reference range: 12.0 – 82.0 µg/L.)

(Suggestion: Maybe use the date that the sample was taken in the spreadsheet rather than the date the result was received as the 'snapshot' of Maya's status relates to the former - better for tracking and comparison of results, relationship to symptoms, diet at that time, etc.)

Interpretation of result (from the TAMU TLI page):

In cats, values equal to or below 8.0 µg/L are diagnostic for EPI, with values between 8.0 and 12.0 being equivocal. As in the dog, repeating the assay one month later should be considered.

EPI in Cats (PetPlace) gives a very helpful overview of EPI, including recommended diagnostics. Interestingly, they include checking for UTIs in the work-up (don't mention the relevance, but worthy of note because of Maya's UTI). One thing in particular I don't recall your mentioning is whether they carried out a faecal culture as part of the diagnostic work-up? Our member Sienne has recommended checking for these parasites:

C. Perfrinigens Enterotoxin
C. Dificile Toxin
Campylobacter
Shigella
Salmonella
Pleisomonas
Edwardsiella
Aeromonas

(Original post here - whole thread is worth a read.)

What's happening with Maya is very similar to what happened with Saoirse when she had her first - very severe - pancreatitis flare. I got to the stage where I despaired that she would ever have a solid bowel motion again. In the earlier part of the flare she had what could be considered classic EPI-style stools (steatorrhoea, pale, greyish-tan in colour, stank to the high heavens and back again) followed by a period of watery then somewhat thicker diarrhoea. I asked our vet to run an fTLI test for her but it came back at 136.7 (indicative of acute or chronic pancreatitis according to TAMU). The symptoms resolved in time (and never recurred). To the best of my recall I think it may have been finding a food that agreed with her that helped resolve the diarrhoea. I'll need to check back in her daily journal to see what worked for her in case there's something there that might help you with Maya.

(Question: Did you identify an initial trigger for the diarrhoea, e.g: introduction of a different food; course of antibiotics or other meds? My apologies if you've provided this information previously and I've missed it.)

----------------------

For the benefit of all following Maya's progress, here's info on the items prescribed:

Eradia - liquid formulation of metronidazole (the active ingredient in the metrobactin Maya was on before). Licensed for dogs in the UK. Presumably similar for Greece as an EU member state? (@tiffmaxee - I believe that there are some caveats around giving cats the dog version of a metronidazole preparation. Could you give Marisofi more info about this?)

(Question: Did your vet say why they've changed away from the metrobactin to this preparation?)

WeNzyme - Food supplement containing pancreatic enzymes, B12/folic acid, and Enterococcus faecium (probiotic - same one as in Fortiflora).

Vivomixx - Probiotic

Articlox - B12 Hydroxocobalamin (All B12 injected supplements sting a little but I picked up this anecdotal report of Articlox being a more stingy preparation in a human than some other like products on the market so thought it might be handy info for you just in case Maya were to have any issues.)

----------------------

Helpful links:

Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency -
Very good discussion of the condition with tips for best way to give enzyme supplements (courtesy of the excellent marvistavet.com website).

WSAVA: EPI in Cats - "chronic pancreatitis is believed to be the most common cause of EPI in the cat."

EPI in Cats Support Site - Information about the condition and practical tips on how to treat it, plus discussion forum.

IDEXX Feline Pancreatitis Treatment Guidelines - Everything you wanted to know about helpful pancreatitis treatments but were afraid to ask.

ibdkitties.net - Lots of info relevant to cats with GI issues, not just those with IBD (e.g. pancreatitis, probiotics and B12 info pages).

[ETA: Additional link and tips below.]


Nausea, Vomiting and Inappetence: Symptoms and Treatments - Checklist of signs to watch for: can be a guide to which foods agree best with a kitty and also act as an early warning sign of a pancreatitis flare. (Usually the faster it's treated, the quicker it will resolve.)

Additional Tips for Spotting Signs of Pain/Discomfort in Cats with Pancreatic/Intestinal Discomfort:

(1) A cat with pancreatitis may exhibit hiding behaviours or may sit in a 'tense meatloaf' position - possibly with a 'pinched' expression on its face - after eating a food that is disagreeable.

(2) A cat may seek out cooler surfaces to lie on in an effort to soothe pain/discomfort from the inflammation (of pancreas and/or intestines).


Mogs
.
καλό απόγευμα, Marisofi.

Maya's TLI Result: 10.7 (Feline reference range: 12.0 – 82.0 µg/L.)

(Suggestion: Maybe use the date that the sample was taken in the spreadsheet rather than the date the result was received as the 'snapshot' of Maya's status relates to the former - better for tracking and comparison of results, relationship to symptoms, diet at that time, etc.)

Interpretation of result (from the TAMU TLI page):

In cats, values equal to or below 8.0 µg/L are diagnostic for EPI, with values between 8.0 and 12.0 being equivocal. As in the dog, repeating the assay one month later should be considered.
[Emphasis mine]

My understanding is that where EPI is the big issue then frequently the associated malabsorption problems lead to low levels of B12/folate - not the case for Maya at the moment (good?).

Of note is that every site covering EPI in cats mentions that it is commonly seen secondary to chronic pancreatitis so, in addition to starting the recommended treatment plan, perhaps keep that particular pot on the boil with your vet? See the IDEXX guidelines listed below for further information on appropriate treatments.

EPI in Cats (PetPlace) gives a very helpful overview of EPI, including recommended diagnostics. Interestingly, they include checking for UTIs in the work-up (don't mention the relevance, but worthy of note because of Maya's UTI). One thing in particular I don't recall your mentioning is whether they carried out a faecal culture as part of the diagnostic work-up? Our member Sienne has recommended checking for these parasites:

C. Perfrinigens Enterotoxin
C. Dificile Toxin
Campylobacter
Shigella
Salmonella
Pleisomonas
Edwardsiella
Aeromonas

(Original post here - whole thread is worth a read.)

What's happening with Maya is very similar to what happened with Saoirse when she had her first - very severe - pancreatitis flare. I got to the stage where I despaired that she would ever have a solid bowel motion again. In the earlier part of the flare she had what could be considered classic EPI-style stools (steatorrhoea, pale, greyish-tan in colour, stank to the high heavens and back again) followed by a period of watery then somewhat thicker diarrhoea. I asked our vet to run an fTLI test for her but it came back at 136.7 (indicative of acute or chronic pancreatitis according to TAMU). The symptoms resolved in time (and never recurred). To the best of my recall I think it may have been finding a food that agreed with her that helped resolve the diarrhoea. I'll need to check back in her daily journal to see what worked for her in case there's something there that might help you with Maya.

(Question: Did you identify an initial trigger for the diarrhoea, e.g: introduction of a different food; course of antibiotics or other meds? My apologies if you've provided this information previously and I've missed it.)

----------------------

For the benefit of all following Maya's progress, here's info on the items prescribed:

Eradia - liquid formulation of metronidazole (the active ingredient in the metrobactin Maya was on before). Licensed for dogs in the UK. Presumably similar for Greece as an EU member state? (@tiffmaxee - I believe that there are some caveats around giving cats the dog version of a metronidazole preparation. Could you give Marisofi more info about this?)

(Question: Did your vet say why they've changed away from the metrobactin to this preparation?)

WeNzyme - Food supplement containing pancreatic enzymes, B12/folic acid, and Enterococcus faecium (probiotic - same one as in Fortiflora).

Vivomixx - Probiotic

Articlox - B12 Hydroxocobalamin (All B12 injected supplements sting a little but I picked up this anecdotal report of Articlox being a more stingy preparation in a human than some other like products on the market so thought it might be handy info for you just in case Maya were to have any issues.)

----------------------

Helpful links:

Exocrine Pancreatic Insufficiency -
Very good discussion of the condition with tips for best way to give enzyme supplements (courtesy of the excellent marvistavet.com website).

WSAVA: EPI in Cats - "chronic pancreatitis is believed to be the most common cause of EPI in the cat."

EPI in Cats Support Site - Information about the condition and practical tips on how to treat it, plus discussion forum.

IDEXX Feline Pancreatitis Treatment Guidelines - Everything you wanted to know about helpful pancreatitis treatments but were afraid to ask.

ibdkitties.net - Lots of info relevant to cats with GI issues, not just those with IBD (e.g. pancreatitis, probiotics and B12 info pages).

[ETA: Additional link and tips below.]


Nausea, Vomiting and Inappetence: Symptoms and Treatments - Checklist of signs to watch for: can be a guide to which foods agree best with a kitty and also act as an early warning sign of a pancreatitis flare. (Usually the faster it's treated, the quicker it will resolve.)

Additional Tips for Spotting Signs of Pain/Discomfort in Cats with Pancreatic/Intestinal Discomfort:

(1) A cat with pancreatitis may exhibit hiding behaviours or may sit in a 'tense meatloaf' position - possibly with a 'pinched' expression on its face - after eating a food that is disagreeable.

(2) A cat may seek out cooler surfaces to lie on in an effort to soothe pain/discomfort from the inflammation (of pancreas and/or intestines).


Mogs
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Thank you so much for all this info!

The stats on EPI are reassuring... So is learning the Saoirse overcame her situation...

No, we haven't done a faecal culture.

I haven't really identified an initial trigger for the diarrhoea. It began around the time we started giving her insulin. I had changed her food to m/d about a month before.
 
It's not. With appropriate supplementation of enzymes, etc., cats with EPI can lead long, healthy lives.

Maya's fTLI result is in the grey area, so it's possible she may not have EPI at all. As I said above, I would keep on the case with the vets about whether the root cause could possibly be chronic pancreatitis - either to rule it out or to make sure Maya gets the right treatment for it. The comments you posted about what your vet said earlier is that they regard the pancreatitis as having being completely resolved (i.e. only considering acute pancreatitis). Chronic pancreatitis symptoms tend to wax and wane in severity.


Mogs
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She said that she was hoping that Maya had pancreatitis, but now it seems that she has gone one step further...
 
As to the liquid version of metronadozole, it is not safe for cats. Dogs can take it without issue. The pill should be used and at the lowest dose that works. The dosing scale is very wide.
That's scary! I'll go to the pharmacist tomorrow to check if they have that in pills...
 
Just noting that to my understanding epi symptoms include possible unexplained weight loss, which was not the case with Maya as her weight loss was combined with decreased appetite and intake, (maybe she didn't like the diabetic prescription food?). This may not rule out an epi diagnosis, but she doesn't seem to have this symptom for what it's worth. It would be interesting to know if she gained any weight now that she is solely on wellness core and is eating enough.
She started losing weight before I had her on prescription food. She hasn't gained any weight but, to be fair, she's only been on Core for the past 3 days.
 
That's scary! I'll go to the pharmacist tomorrow to check if they have that in pills...
You might possibly need a different Rx from the vet. It might be worth asking your vet about whether Stomorgyl 2 might be an option. Our vets prescribe it in preference to Flagyl because it apparently doesn't taste quite so bad. It's listed as a treatment for oral and periodontal infections but presumably because it contains metronidazole it's also OK for GI issues.

Another thought came to me: when Saoirse was seen by an internal medicine specialist re pancreatitis and liver issues, she recommended checking for toxoplasmosis. She also recommended that any time Saoirse might have a subsequent flare - even a mild one - that prompt instigation of pain management can aid resolve a flare a bit faster because it helps calm the inflammation somewhat.

Is your vet planning to do another Spec fPL test any time?


Mogs
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You might possibly need a different Rx from the vet. It might be worth asking your vet about whether Stomorgyl 2 might be an option. Our vets prescribe it in preference to Flagyl because it apparently doesn't taste quite so bad. It's listed as a treatment for oral and periodontal infections but presumably because it contains metronidazole it's also OK for GI issues.

Another thought came to me: when Saoirse was seen by an internal medicine specialist re pancreatitis and liver issues, she recommended checking for toxoplasmosis. She also recommended that any time Saoirse might have a subsequent flare - even a mild one - that prompt instigation of pain management can aid resolve a flare a bit faster because it helps calm the inflammation somewhat.

Is your vet planning to do another Spec fPL test any time?


Mogs
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No, she hasn't told me that she has any such plans...
Honestly it's a bit difficult to get vets to do anything. Like I've mentioned, I've seen three and I got pushback from all of them when I tried suggesting anything. The attitude was have you been seeing another doctor/don't you trust my judgement/... etc
 
I see you are in Greece. We have a member from Greeece whose vet is willing to give her meds but unfortunately she was not knowledgeable about diabetes or a lot of other feline issues. Sadly she lost her Naomi last month but perhaps she might know if her vet could help you get have no idea where she’s located and she hasn’t been on the board much. I can get ahold of her to see. Can you give me an idea of a general location where you live?
 
Maybe back up your questions by sharing info published by recognised veterinary centres of excellence (e.g. TAMU, IDEXX, WSAVA, AAHA, ISFM), veterinary journal articles, etc.? I do that with our main vet at the practice (but I'm ever so slightly blessed that he doesn't object to my being a helicopter pet parent and he's very collaborative in his approach). All you're doing is trying to learn more so that you can do more to help Maya - and that's all to the good.

Keeping a daily journal of observations helps too because, in addition to being an invaluable aid to spotting patterns and a record of what does/doesn't work to which you can refer back (a huge asset when managing a chronic condition), it gives you a raft of solid evidence to discuss with your vets (and they might begin to take you more seriously).


Mogs
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PS: The IDEXX pancreatitis document linked above is a great one to wave under a vet's nose when you're trying to negotiate for the right diagnostics and treatments! ;)


Mogs
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I see you are in Greece. We have a member from Greeece whose vet is willing to give her meds but unfortunately she was not knowledgeable about diabetes or a lot of other feline issues. Sadly she lost her Naomi last month but perhaps she might know if her vet could help you get have no idea where she’s located and she hasn’t been on the board much. I can get ahold of her to see. Can you give me an idea of a general location where you live?
Sure! I am in Athens, Attica.
 
Maybe back up your questions by sharing info published by recognised veterinary centres of excellence (e.g. TAMU, IDEXX, WSAVA, AAHA, ISFM), veterinary journal articles, etc.? I do that with our main vet at the practice (but I'm ever so slightly blessed that he doesn't object to my being a helicopter pet parent and he's very collaborative in his approach). All you're doing is trying to learn more so that you can do more to help Maya - and that's all to the good.

Keeping a daily journal of observations helps too because, in addition to being an invaluable aid to spotting patterns and a record of what does/doesn't work to which you can refer back (a huge asset when managing a chronic condition), it gives you a raft of solid evidence to discuss with your vets (and they might begin to take you more seriously).


Mogs
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That's good advice! I just need to become a little bit more assertive with these people...
 
@CB Terri -

That web page you linked above has great information. Thanks for sharing it! (Bookmarked.) :)

@Marisofi -

From the article previously linked above by Terri:

Because intestinal parasites may be a factor in any diarrheic state, fecal examinations should be routinely done in all patients.

That's a professional opinion for you to cite if you ask your vet to check a faecal sample for Maya (just in case the vet might say it's not a good idea).


Mogs
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Cats don’t tolerate benzodes well. So you need the hydrochloride version of metronadozole which is the pill form. It smells awful so you are best to put it in a gel cap and be careful not to touch the outside. Google this for a better explanation.
I just wrap mine in a thin layer of pill pocket like I do for all her bitter tasting meds. Works just as well to when you pill them because it stops the pill from melting before going down
 
No, she hasn't told me that she has any such plans...
Honestly it's a bit difficult to get vets to do anything. Like I've mentioned, I've seen three and I got pushback from all of them when I tried suggesting anything. The attitude was have you been seeing another doctor/don't you trust my judgement/... etc
It is frustrating and sickening when a person in chatge of your or your beloved pet's health seems unwilling to educate themselves, or keep abreast of the research being done in their field.
 
Hi Marisofi,
How is Maya doing?
If you join facebook IBDKitties group, the person that wrote the epi article on www.ibdkitties.net is a member and may help you.
Hi Kalypso! I don't have Facebook, so I can't join.

I chatted with Yanna though who pointed out that Arden Grange (the dry food recommended to me by a specialized shop where I got the pancreatic enzymes) has been getting some bad reviews for causing diarrhea!

Today we went from 400 to 150 and back to 400... A roller coaster!
 
Hi Marisofi!

Dry food is not recommended for any cat, and especially for one with diabetes or epi. Your cat needs a high quality wet food, high in animal protein and low in carbs. Please read further on nutrition if you like:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/diet.htm
https://www.ibdkitties.net/feline-nutrition/
https://consciouscat.net/2012/03/22/the-best-food-for-your-cat/
Please do not feed Maya any dry food! And do not take advice on food from pet shops or even vets! Arden grange light doesn't list moisture content, but I calculated %Kals from carbs and it is 46,40 %! That is a huge amount of carbs, it could raise blood glucose significantly and could be the cause for the roller coaster of Mayas values. Please only stick with wellness core, and write me what flavors of it you are feeding her so I can measure carb content for you.

You could also ask again if you should try lantus, as they have proposed you before.

I believe it would be of great help to you if you joined the fb ibdkitties group (https://www.facebook.com/groups/IBDKitties/). As you can see, vets knowledge can be restricted on particular issues as the scope of their science is so wide and they are not educated on nutrition. Also, epi is underdiagnosed in cats so it is difficult for them to have enough experience. You need to educate yourself and get all the help you can find, in order to proceed best. You can make a dummy facebook account on Mayas name and even with a dummy email, or you can write a post and I can post it for you!

How is Maya's appetite and weight? You could add weight measurements and food changes on the remarks column of her spreadsheet so we have a full picture.

Did you manage to get your vet run a fecal exam?

@Critter Mom and all could you help me with nutrition and blood glucose levels interpretation and suggestions for Maya or tag someone else you think can help too?
 
@kalypso -

Hi Sophia,

While the ideal approach to treatment of feline diabetes is to safely transition the cat from a wet/dry high carb diet to a low carb wet one, in practice there are some situations where diet choices just aren't that clear cut, no matter how much we might want them to be.

As I've replied to you before, extra caution is needed when it comes to diet changes for Maya because of her GI problems. Gradual changes are advisable for all cats when moving to a new food with a view to avoiding digestive system upsets, so when a cat already has a GI disturbance much greater care is needed - especially if the kitty is a diabetic receiving insulin. It's critical to minimise the risk of the cat becoming badly nauseated or inappetent - especially if a cat has a history of pancreatitis - in order to avoid disruption to insulin treatment or development of dangerous complications like ketosis/DKA or hepatic lipidosis.

As a general observation, first and foremost a cat needs to eat. When managing difficult health conditions - especially those affecting the digestive system - one ultimately has to feed what the cat can tolerate, and sometimes it may turn out that the carb value/food type might not be the optimum choice for a diabetic. When managing multiple conditions sometimes it's necessary diet-wise to prioritise a condition other than the diabetes and then work the insulin dosing around the dietary requirements dictated by the other condition.

@Marisofi -

If you do want to trial any new food, I recommend that you discuss proposed changes with your vets first because they may have advice on the EPI side of things for you to take into account. Based on my own experience, I'd recommended proceeding with any transition very, very slowly and monitoring very closely for how Maya responds at each stage, e.g. signs of nausea, signs of discomfort after eating (crouching in a tense 'meatloaf' position, hiding, pinched expression on face), worsening of diarrhoea. Word of warning: with pancreatitis in the mix, finding a food that's agreeable can be a slow, fraught process - for both cat and caregiver - with a lot of trial and error involved. Keeping a record of exactly what is fed plus meds and supplements given will be an enormous help to you because sometimes it may be necessary to backtrack to something that worked better for Maya previously. It is my sincere hope that you'll find a food that suits Maya quickly.

Also, if you do attempt to move Maya to a lower carb diet then you will need to intensively monitor her BG - on both AM and PM cycles - because typically the insulin dose needs to be reduced in tandem with the reduction in carb load. See the feline diabetes page at catinfo.org for more info.


Mogs
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@kalypso -

FDMB Vetsulin Guide on managing insulin dose adjustments:

------------------------------------------

Changing the Dose

Hold the starting dose for at least a week UNLESS

  • your cat won’t eat or you suspect hypoglycemia
  • your kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L). If kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L) decrease the dose by 0.25 unit immediately.
After 1 week at a given dose perform a 12-hour curve (i.e., testing every 2 hours) OR perform an 18 hour curve (i.e., testing every 3 hours). Note: Random spot checks are essential in order to "fill in the blanks" on your kitty's spreadsheet. The goal is to learn how low the current dose is dropping kitty prior to making dose adjustments.

The general guidelines for making dose changes are:
  • If nadirs are more than 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), increase the dose by 0.25 unit
  • If nadirs are between 90 (5 mmol/L) and 149 mg/dl (8.2 mmol/L), maintain the same dose
  • If nadirs are below 90 mg/dl (5mmol/L), decrease the dose by 0.25 unit
  • HOWEVER, there are some situations which signal that a larger than usual dose reduction is needed. If you are unsure, please post on this forum or in the Health forum and ask for input about your dose.
As your cat's blood glucose begins to fall mostly in the desired range [lowest point of the curve approaching 100 mg/dl (5.5 mmol/L) and pre-shot value around or below 300 mg/dl (16.6 mmol/L)], lengthen the waiting time between dose increases. If you decide to change another factor (e.g. diet or other medications), don't increase the insulin dose until the other change is complete but decrease the dose if your cat's glucose numbers consistently fall below 90 mg/dl (5.0 mmol/L) as a result of the change.

Don't be tempted to rush the process along by increasing the dose more quickly or in larger increments no matter how high your cat's blood glucose is! Rushing towards regulation will cost you time in the long run, because you may race past the right dose for your cat.

[Emphasis mine]

Maya has only been on the 3.5IU Vetsulin dose for 5 cycles of the recommended 14 for which each dose should be held (unless a reduction is earned). She has already seen a nadir in the 150s.


Mogs
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Thank you Critter Mom for stepping in and for your valuable advice to Marisofi!
I aggree about cautious food change while on insulin and with diarrhea, Maya was already on a low carb wet food and I was concearned about adding a new dry food.
But I am afraid I am very skeptical as to any good advice about nutrition coming from vets, at least in Greece :(. For instance, most of them recommend prescription dry for diabetes.
 
@Critter Mom @kalypso many thanks for the inputs.

I will continue the 3.5 dose for 14 days.

Maya's appetite has increased significantly the past week, and she is drinking less water.

My problem with doing away with the dry food is that I have two other cats who have learned to rely on it. I am trying to change their habits but it's taking some time...
 
I will continue the 3.5 dose for 14 days.
You'll be able to review the current dose sooner than that, Marisofi. :)

Just to clarify:

* 1 cycle = 12 hours.

* Each day you have an AM and a PM cycle.

The FDMB Vetsulin guide recommendation is to hold a dose for 7 days (14 cycles) then review and adjust the dose if necessary based on a full curve run on the seventh day plus the daily BG readings taken over the 7-day period. Rinse 'n' repeat.

Today is your third day on the 3.5IU dose (this evening being the 6th cycle), so you'd continue getting your daily tests in and then run a full curve on Saturday (tests at AMPS, +2, +4, +6, +8, +10, PMPS).

Given that Maya is seeing nadirs in the 150s on the 3.5IU dose, I'd suggest that if further dose increases are needed going forward that you make any future upward adjustments in 0.25IU increments.

Maya's appetite has increased significantly the past week, and she is drinking less water.
This is wonderful news, especially that Maya's able to eat better! :cat:

How are things in the poop department?

My problem with doing away with the dry food is that I have two other cats who have learned to rely on it. I am trying to change their habits but it's taking some time...
Cats have a way of happening to you while you're busy making other plans.* :rolleyes:

You'll get there. Here's a link to the catinfo.org tips for transitioning cats to a low carb wet food. It might give you some ideas to try out.


Mogs

(* With apologies to Allen Saunders.)

.
 
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You'll be able to review the current dose sooner than that, Marisofi. :)

Just to clarify:

* 1 cycle = 12 hours.

* Each day you have an AM and a PM cycle.

The FDMB Vetsulin guide recommendation is to hold a dose for 7 days (14 cycles) then review and adjust the dose if necessary based on a full curve run on the seventh day plus the daily BG readings taken over the 7-day period. Rinse 'n' repeat.

Today is your third day on the 3.5IU dose (this evening being the 6th cycle), so you'd continue getting your daily tests in and then run a full curve on Saturday (tests at AMPS, +2, +4, +6, +8, +10, PMPS).

Given that Maya is seeing nadirs in the 150s on the 3.5IU dose, I'd suggest that if further dose increases are needed going forward that you make any future dose increases in 0.25IU increments.


This is wonderful news, especially that Maya's able to eat better! :cat:

How are things in the poop department?


Cats have a way of happening to you while you're busy making other plans.* :rolleyes:

You'll get there. Here's a link to the catinfo.org tips for transitioning cats to a low carb wet food. It might give you some ideas to try out.


Mogs

(* With apologies to Allen Saunders.)

.
Oh ok, now it's clear!

Poop wise it's getting better. Today was the first time that she had soft stool but not watery diarrhea. Fingers crossed...
 
@Critter Mom @Sienne and Gabby (GA) @Aleluia Grugru & Minnie @kalypso @CB Terri @jt and trouble (GA) @Yanna

Guys, not sure which time zone you're on, it's very late here in Greece. I got up to get some water and something inside told me to measure Maya's BG, call it instinct or whatever. She was at 59!!! I fed her wet food immediately, she ate two and half small cans. She also drank water. Measured again and it was 53. I have no honey at home because I didn't think she would be in risk of hypoing as she's been consistently hitting the 300s-400s... I'll buy first thing in the morning, along with syrup and treats. For now, I'll keep on monitoring. I cannot sleep because I don't know what may happen.
 
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What food did you give her? Was it high carb? What meter are you using, human or pet? If it’s human she’s still in safe range but you do need her number to go up not down. In the future do not feed so much. You want her to be hungry to keep eating so you can bring her numbers up with food. One tablespoon at a time. Do you have high carb food at hand? Do you have your hypo kit?

Can you test again in 30 minutes after the last test and post please?
 
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