AMPS - alphatrack-421 freestyle lite - 274
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Teresa and Poopy
Very Active Member
That's scary! Such a huge difference! Also good to know for others using those meters.
I wonder....I know the Contours I use have expiration dates. Do other meters? Could that be part of the difference?
I wonder....I know the Contours I use have expiration dates. Do other meters? Could that be part of the difference?
Jessica & Boo Radley
Active Member
I just changed from my freestyle lite because I was getting HUGE discrepancies between it and either a Contour or the vet's meter. Just like yours, my Freestyle was reading much, much lower than the others....sometimes as much as 200 points!
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
You might post something about the Freestyle over on Health to warn others. There could be users blissfully going along thinking they have good numbers when, in fact, they are higher.
Eva & Butters
Active Member
Hi, Everyone ~
There have been some discussions about the Freestyle Lite testing too low. Here's a discussion from Health with a posting by Dr. Lisa:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57719&p=628778&hilit=freestyle+lite#p628778
Re: Help w/data collection - serum vs ear poke plasma-calibr
by Lisa dvm » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:53 pm
skybar22 wrote:
I was going to share this with you Dr Lisa and thought it might be good to share this here with all. I took Morgaine to the vet on 3/16 as she had been sick and her Lab was 283, Vet's Alpha Trak was 247 and my Free Style Freedom was 140. Due to that variance I stopped using the FS and several others in the LL community found the same thing, much lower readings on the FS. We all thought our cats had much better control. I went ahead and did a comparison of 4 meters on myself for a few days and manipulated my BG since i am a type 1. The FS was consistently off well beyond the 20% variance. I know this is a little OT but I thought it relevant for this discussion. I have my data on the comparisons if you want it.
Not OT at all. In fact, good timing.
I was just working with a client who was using a Freedom Freestyle Lite and the cat's BGs were NOT in line with his clinical signs! Too low to match what the cat was showing.
Client compared the FFL with an Alphatrak and a Relion - the FFL was 100 points lower than the AT. The Relion was ~30 points lower than the AT which is acceptable.
And there have been quite a few discussions about the Freestyle Lite testing low on the Lantus board:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=56781&p=615952&hilit=freestyle+lite#p615952
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/search.php?keywords=freestyle+lite&fid[0]=9
I like Sue's suggestion to warn others on Health about your experience with your Freestyle Lite testing low.
Eva
There have been some discussions about the Freestyle Lite testing too low. Here's a discussion from Health with a posting by Dr. Lisa:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=57719&p=628778&hilit=freestyle+lite#p628778
Re: Help w/data collection - serum vs ear poke plasma-calibr
by Lisa dvm » Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:53 pm
skybar22 wrote:
I was going to share this with you Dr Lisa and thought it might be good to share this here with all. I took Morgaine to the vet on 3/16 as she had been sick and her Lab was 283, Vet's Alpha Trak was 247 and my Free Style Freedom was 140. Due to that variance I stopped using the FS and several others in the LL community found the same thing, much lower readings on the FS. We all thought our cats had much better control. I went ahead and did a comparison of 4 meters on myself for a few days and manipulated my BG since i am a type 1. The FS was consistently off well beyond the 20% variance. I know this is a little OT but I thought it relevant for this discussion. I have my data on the comparisons if you want it.
Not OT at all. In fact, good timing.
I was just working with a client who was using a Freedom Freestyle Lite and the cat's BGs were NOT in line with his clinical signs! Too low to match what the cat was showing.
Client compared the FFL with an Alphatrak and a Relion - the FFL was 100 points lower than the AT. The Relion was ~30 points lower than the AT which is acceptable.
And there have been quite a few discussions about the Freestyle Lite testing low on the Lantus board:
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=56781&p=615952&hilit=freestyle+lite#p615952
http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/search.php?keywords=freestyle+lite&fid[0]=9
I like Sue's suggestion to warn others on Health about your experience with your Freestyle Lite testing low.
Eva
donnahc
Very Active Member
I just checked my notes and we have periodically checked meters thruought the year Asher has been diabetic.
We have been 30 points off, 100 points off and 50 points off, all with the AT being higher and all on the same drop of fresh blood. In the beggining we tested this more and it was closer to the 30-40 point range of difference, but Asher’s numbers were higher then. It was driving me nutz, this back and forth with meters, and people said just pick the one meter and stick with it. Then there is the 20% variance. If both meters are off by 20%, you are off by 40%. So who can belive anything. It is maddening. Many folks here I respected used the Freestyle lite so we went with it. Somewhere here there is a bar graph comparison or a link to one. I will try to find it. I know I looked it over and talked to Gator before I bought the freestyle.
Easy decision to go with the freestyle because I HATE the AT so much, ruining strips with errors and we were going broke buying these overpriced strips. Heaven forbid you space it and run out, you have to wait a week to get some by mail. It takes a huge drop of blood to get a reading without an error.
So worst off, now I am worried that Asher is not really regulated, and secondly that we have about 200 strips here to use or waste if I am going to switch meters. My vet told us the numbers weren't as important as his clinical signs, and he shows no clinical signs of diabetes, really since about a week or two after he was put on insulin. He also said it is best to keep him under the renal threshold of 270 tho too. But, I am worried we need to give Asher more insulin now.
I am really distressed about this. Like we all need one more freaking thing to worry about.
We have been 30 points off, 100 points off and 50 points off, all with the AT being higher and all on the same drop of fresh blood. In the beggining we tested this more and it was closer to the 30-40 point range of difference, but Asher’s numbers were higher then. It was driving me nutz, this back and forth with meters, and people said just pick the one meter and stick with it. Then there is the 20% variance. If both meters are off by 20%, you are off by 40%. So who can belive anything. It is maddening. Many folks here I respected used the Freestyle lite so we went with it. Somewhere here there is a bar graph comparison or a link to one. I will try to find it. I know I looked it over and talked to Gator before I bought the freestyle.
Easy decision to go with the freestyle because I HATE the AT so much, ruining strips with errors and we were going broke buying these overpriced strips. Heaven forbid you space it and run out, you have to wait a week to get some by mail. It takes a huge drop of blood to get a reading without an error.
So worst off, now I am worried that Asher is not really regulated, and secondly that we have about 200 strips here to use or waste if I am going to switch meters. My vet told us the numbers weren't as important as his clinical signs, and he shows no clinical signs of diabetes, really since about a week or two after he was put on insulin. He also said it is best to keep him under the renal threshold of 270 tho too. But, I am worried we need to give Asher more insulin now.
I am really distressed about this. Like we all need one more freaking thing to worry about.
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Donna,
To ease your mind, can you get another meter and try both on the same drop of blood?
The freestyle has seemed to work for some people. If you have had it a long time, maybe they have changed something recently.
The important thing for me with meters is that it was within a variance when compared with other meters and especially when compared with the vets.
If his clinical signs have, and continue to be good, I am wondering whether your meter does work. Even if others do not.
Ps. Don't forget that breathing thing, Donna. :mrgreen:
To ease your mind, can you get another meter and try both on the same drop of blood?
The freestyle has seemed to work for some people. If you have had it a long time, maybe they have changed something recently.
The important thing for me with meters is that it was within a variance when compared with other meters and especially when compared with the vets.
If his clinical signs have, and continue to be good, I am wondering whether your meter does work. Even if others do not.
Ps. Don't forget that breathing thing, Donna. :mrgreen:
donnahc
Very Active Member
Thanks Sue. You are always the voice of reason. I might just get another human meter to compare.
I also think I’m going to email my vet about all of this. We are not due for an appointment until spring, but maybe he’d let me stop in and do a comparison with what they use to test.
It’s just distressing because you think you are doing ok, then get some info to tell you maybe you’re not.
Bottom line is he seems fine and happy. He is sitting with me now eyeing up my sandwich for lunch and purring
I also think I’m going to email my vet about all of this. We are not due for an appointment until spring, but maybe he’d let me stop in and do a comparison with what they use to test.
It’s just distressing because you think you are doing ok, then get some info to tell you maybe you’re not.
Bottom line is he seems fine and happy. He is sitting with me now eyeing up my sandwich for lunch and purring
Jessica & Boo Radley
Active Member
donnahc said:Thanks Sue. You are always the voice of reason. I might just get another human meter to compare.
I also think I’m going to email my vet about all of this. We are not due for an appointment until spring, but maybe he’d let me stop in and do a comparison with what they use to test.
It’s just distressing because you think you are doing ok, then get some info to tell you maybe you’re not.
Bottom line is he seems fine and happy. He is sitting with me now eyeing up my sandwich for lunch and purring
I think that's a fine idea and will give you the peace of mind you are looking for. For less than $50... you should be able to drop your cat off for a few hours and have them run multiple tests at different times. I would ask your Vet how often their meter is calibrated as well just so you have a reference of accuracey.
And....even if you find a discrepancy, you'll know the conversion and can always use that to guide your way.
"Treat the patient no the machines" - words we live by in human medicine!
donnahc
Very Active Member
My vet is 45 mins away, so I don’t want to stress Asher taking him up there without really needing to. I have emailed my vet this info and I want to see what he says. I offered to bring my meters in to the office if he wants to compare with what they use. I will share that with you all when he gets back to me. nailbite_smile
In the meantime I am thinking of running out to Walmart (with my nose pinched, I hate that place) and getting a Relion Micro to try. Will let you know if I decide to do that too
I still have a few AT strips left so plan to test with that a few times here and there,to make myself more nutz haha_smiley
Oh and Denise, I sure didn’t mean to jack your thread, just wanted to offer up all our info....
In the meantime I am thinking of running out to Walmart (with my nose pinched, I hate that place) and getting a Relion Micro to try. Will let you know if I decide to do that too
I still have a few AT strips left so plan to test with that a few times here and there,to make myself more nutz haha_smiley
Oh and Denise, I sure didn’t mean to jack your thread, just wanted to offer up all our info....
dmartini4
Very Active Member
No I am so sorry to make you doubt Asher great numbers!
I am so freakin upset about this, I guess this means that we have been way off for well over a year and
just when I think we are getting somehere good, now this, I missed my vet today so I will try tomorrow
and will be heading to walmart saturday to get the relion...
does anyone know if there is more than one kind...this **** is so confusing
and and yes Sue you are right Iw ill post in health later..
I am so freakin upset about this, I guess this means that we have been way off for well over a year and
just when I think we are getting somehere good, now this, I missed my vet today so I will try tomorrow
and will be heading to walmart saturday to get the relion...
does anyone know if there is more than one kind...this **** is so confusing
and and yes Sue you are right Iw ill post in health later..
donnahc
Very Active Member
I looked on their website and it looks like there are 3 kinds of the Relion. It is possible that one is a newer version too. I will just have to see what they have in stock.
Website says Relion Ultra, Confirm, and Micro. Wondering if that Micro is the older one since the Walbogs website didn’t look like you could order that one online.
I am hoping since Asher has been so consistant, that if we raise his dose a bit we can get him in REAL good numbers. Just very upsetting that for almost a year maybe he was in higher numbers and we could have done something about it. I am kicking myself. Ugh.
I am slightly bummed about our stock of strips too. I try to buy some when we have extra money. Hopefully I could sell them on ebay if we switch, or maybe just figure out what the difference is between meters for a month or two.
Website says Relion Ultra, Confirm, and Micro. Wondering if that Micro is the older one since the Walbogs website didn’t look like you could order that one online.
I am hoping since Asher has been so consistant, that if we raise his dose a bit we can get him in REAL good numbers. Just very upsetting that for almost a year maybe he was in higher numbers and we could have done something about it. I am kicking myself. Ugh.
I am slightly bummed about our stock of strips too. I try to buy some when we have extra money. Hopefully I could sell them on ebay if we switch, or maybe just figure out what the difference is between meters for a month or two.
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Guest
Relion makes at least two (may still be 3) different meters. The Micro and the Confirm are the two most people use. They use the same strips. The other is called the Ultima, and it must be really special cuz it costs more and has its own strips. Each meter is about 10 bucks, and the strips are sold in 20, 50 and 100 boxes. The more you buy, the cheaper per. I bought the 50 strip size and it was about 20 dollars, I think. Out walmart had the strips on the shelf next to the meters, but some walmarts you have to ask the pharmacist for the strips. They come with some sort of anti-theft thingy, and either the pharmacy or the sevice desk has to do some mojo on the box so you won't set the alarm off and cause the lady at the door who checks your cart and receipt to have a stroke and call for store security to take you out back and beat you. :lol:
This kills me..... "the confirm comes in two colors: Beyond Blue and Perfect Pink". I guess so your cat won't question his or her gender identity!
The only difference between the micro and the confirm is size. The micro is a little bigger than a usb memory stick. The confirm is a bit bigger than a zippo lighter. I found the micro easier to hold onto with one hand while wrestling Bob and his wiggling ear with the other. Some find the confirm easier to hold and read.
But seriously, both you ladies.... maybe you have been getting "low" numbers with the meters you have. But if so, then they are consistently low, I think. Like maybe they've always been off by 50 or whatever, but every time. If that is actually the case, then it's not a really huge deal right? Kick the dose up a quarter or half unit and proceed as normal if needed. It could be that each of you has "a good meter" out of a pile that are both good and bad, and it's not really a problem. Both Asher and Shakes are pretty regulated and consistent for the most part. So "x" amount of dose adjustment should give you "X" amount of impact on the numbers. If your numbers were always wonky or all over the map like when you started, this could be a crisis. But I don't think it is, really. Just sucks to not trust a meter, which is the key to home testing. Better to know one way or the other for sure, and then be able to trust the numbers again.
Having to go to WallyWorld is actually the real bad part of all of this ;-)
This kills me..... "the confirm comes in two colors: Beyond Blue and Perfect Pink". I guess so your cat won't question his or her gender identity!
The only difference between the micro and the confirm is size. The micro is a little bigger than a usb memory stick. The confirm is a bit bigger than a zippo lighter. I found the micro easier to hold onto with one hand while wrestling Bob and his wiggling ear with the other. Some find the confirm easier to hold and read.
But seriously, both you ladies.... maybe you have been getting "low" numbers with the meters you have. But if so, then they are consistently low, I think. Like maybe they've always been off by 50 or whatever, but every time. If that is actually the case, then it's not a really huge deal right? Kick the dose up a quarter or half unit and proceed as normal if needed. It could be that each of you has "a good meter" out of a pile that are both good and bad, and it's not really a problem. Both Asher and Shakes are pretty regulated and consistent for the most part. So "x" amount of dose adjustment should give you "X" amount of impact on the numbers. If your numbers were always wonky or all over the map like when you started, this could be a crisis. But I don't think it is, really. Just sucks to not trust a meter, which is the key to home testing. Better to know one way or the other for sure, and then be able to trust the numbers again.
Having to go to WallyWorld is actually the real bad part of all of this ;-)
donnahc
Very Active Member
Thanks Lisa and Carl. Yes truly, having to go to Walbogs IS a bad part of this :lol: I hate that place physically and politically. But I will do what I have to for the Asher dude. I could always order online to solve one of those issues...
And yes, we’ll try to get a blue one. Asher will be bummin’ if I come home with a pink one
Seriously tho, I think you are right Carl. Hopefully a tweak in dose will get us where we need to be. I just hope I haven’t shortened his life somehow by being negligent on this.
We will press on.
And yes, we’ll try to get a blue one. Asher will be bummin’ if I come home with a pink one
Seriously tho, I think you are right Carl. Hopefully a tweak in dose will get us where we need to be. I just hope I haven’t shortened his life somehow by being negligent on this.
We will press on.
Becky & Morlei
Member
I bought the Relion Micro about two weeks ago for my newly diagnosed kitty based on what people have said on here. We love it, the meter was $10, the strips (which they keep behind the pharmacy counter at the Walmarts here in Las Vegas) were $20 for 50, and the lancets are like $4 for a bunch. You'll be able to tell which one it is, it says micro right on the front. I was so amazed that it only needs a tiny drop of blood and sucks it right up, I was always used to my grandpa having to put a huge drop of blood on top of the test strip. I haven't used any other meter so I have no comparisons...but I definitely have no complaints.dmartini4 said:
Barbara
Very Active Member
Haven't read the whole post yet but I see Carl talking about the Relion. And Carl, of course Thumper has the pink Confirm! :lol: I use the Confirm & love it & I have discovered you can get it & the strips from American Diabetes Wholesale. It's the Arkay Glucocard 01, but I don't think they have it in pink or blue. :sad: :lol: The strips are even cheaper & they come right to your door! If you go through Mr Rebates you can get a rebate back on your order & you can usually find a coupon online somewhere. This should be the link to the page they are on.
http://search.americandiabeteswholesale.com/search?keywords=glucocard 01
http://search.americandiabeteswholesale.com/search?keywords=glucocard 01
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Guest
Hi Barbara! Good to see you!
Of course Thumper would have pink. :smile: When I bought the micro, it only came in black, so Bob just had to deal with it!
Great info on buying with discounts and coupons too.
I have found one downside to OTJ.... I bought a box of 50 strips. I test Bob maybe twice a month. I will never use the box before it expires! I'd share, but they have to be in the sealed box or they "go bad". Otherwise I'd ship 'em to Donna and Denise so they could run a "trial" and not have to pay for a whole box. Next time I buy them, I'll have to buy the smallest box and pay more per strip I guess. But I will do so online to save a couple dollars anyway hopefully.
Of course Thumper would have pink. :smile: When I bought the micro, it only came in black, so Bob just had to deal with it!
Great info on buying with discounts and coupons too.
I have found one downside to OTJ.... I bought a box of 50 strips. I test Bob maybe twice a month. I will never use the box before it expires! I'd share, but they have to be in the sealed box or they "go bad". Otherwise I'd ship 'em to Donna and Denise so they could run a "trial" and not have to pay for a whole box. Next time I buy them, I'll have to buy the smallest box and pay more per strip I guess. But I will do so online to save a couple dollars anyway hopefully.
Jessica & Boo Radley
Active Member
From my experience...I would change. The higher my numbers got, the more inconsistent my data was. From a low standpoint, having a meter that reads low is not necessarily a bad thing - you have a built in defense for hypos. But the other side of the fence can be alarming and is most likely what led us to a second DKA.
I am now using the Relion Confirm. I calibrated against both the vet's and a human lab.....Almost dead on for both (+/- 10mg/dl). I sold my old Freestyle strip son Ebay for about $15/box within one day....not as much as I paid, but when I considered I could replace them with Relion Strips for about $12.00/box....all was good! I did use the American Diabetes Wholesale and Mr. Rebate. The price was 5 boxes of 50 for $69.95, plus the 8% rebate. The strip brand on their site is not "Relion", but made from the same manufacturer and completely compatible. The brand is actually called Alkray; Glucocard 01 Sensor Test Strips. Here's the link:
http://www.americandiabeteswholesale.co ... SiteSearch
I am now using the Relion Confirm. I calibrated against both the vet's and a human lab.....Almost dead on for both (+/- 10mg/dl). I sold my old Freestyle strip son Ebay for about $15/box within one day....not as much as I paid, but when I considered I could replace them with Relion Strips for about $12.00/box....all was good! I did use the American Diabetes Wholesale and Mr. Rebate. The price was 5 boxes of 50 for $69.95, plus the 8% rebate. The strip brand on their site is not "Relion", but made from the same manufacturer and completely compatible. The brand is actually called Alkray; Glucocard 01 Sensor Test Strips. Here's the link:
http://www.americandiabeteswholesale.co ... SiteSearch
owlgal
Very Active Member
I use the relion micro. I like it and like i said earlier, it is always about 30pts lower than the AT. Now that we are getting lower numbers, the gap is even closer(within 20pts). I like the strips because you only need very small amount of blood and it sucks it up immed.
Good luck!
lori
Good luck!
lori
Barbara
Very Active Member
Hey Donna, the strips suck the blood from the tip, it's amazing to watch. It takes very little blood for these strips. I usually end up with too much blood if I warm her ears good. I can't remember the exact amount of blood but it's very little. I don't know why these meters aren't recommended to everyone. If you're a newbie & need one quick you can get the meter for 9.99 & a box of 50 strips for 20.00 at Wal Mart, after that an order could be placed at ADW or just deal with Wal Mart if you want. I can't see using another meter even if they come free cause the strips are so expensive. The manufacturer of the Relion is Arkay so they are sold under that name at ADW, I try to purchase all my supplies from them now.
Barbara
Very Active Member
Jessica & Boo Radley said:
Well, actually we both spelled it wrong. It's Arkray. :lol:
I was so slow posting I see others chimed in with the same info. Sorry, I was busy watching TV! :lol: I don't think you will be sorry if you go with the Relion or the Glucocard from ADW, it is the same meter. They also have the smaller one Carl was talking about about ADW.
I did email Abbott to let them know how poorly their FSL meters work.
After much email exchanges, asking for people to call them to test, I replied there is no point as realtime use has proven their meters to consistently give falsely low readings.
In case you want to report your problems or do some testing with them, here's the report ID and my last email to them.
Re: Other (KMM6085787V8652L0KM)
To: Abbott Diabetes Care Support <support@abbottdiabetescare.com>
Hello,
I see that you have misinterpreted my report to Abbott.
I do NOT use a Free Style meter, and never have used one, so there is no point in my calling to trouble shoot.
I have spoken with SEVERAL others who are testing diabetics with ACROMEGALY and their insulins doses are quite high - one person is giving 102units of Levemir twice daily..... the meter used is critical for accuracy, but Free Style has failed this person and others terribly. EVERY one of them has discarded their Free Style meters for more reliable and dependable meters such as Bayer, OneTouch, and Accu-Chek.
Test strips are very expensive and there is no incentive for any person to waste money on strips for a meter that has been proven to be unreliable. Even if you sent the strips to a person, there is no purpose to trouble shoot because that phase has already been done by people. When a person takes the Free Style meter, the Bayer meter, and compared results to a dr's meter at the dr office, and results have shown that Free Style is always 'off', these people do not care.
I am simply trying to pay it forward and let Abbott know that their Free Style meters have issues, and many people are advising others to avoid the Free Style meter because of their issues.
Abbott needs to address issues with their meter's reliability in readings, especially when it affects one's health by giving falsely lower numbers.
After much email exchanges, asking for people to call them to test, I replied there is no point as realtime use has proven their meters to consistently give falsely low readings.
In case you want to report your problems or do some testing with them, here's the report ID and my last email to them.
Re: Other (KMM6085787V8652L0KM)
To: Abbott Diabetes Care Support <support@abbottdiabetescare.com>
Hello,
I see that you have misinterpreted my report to Abbott.
I do NOT use a Free Style meter, and never have used one, so there is no point in my calling to trouble shoot.
I have spoken with SEVERAL others who are testing diabetics with ACROMEGALY and their insulins doses are quite high - one person is giving 102units of Levemir twice daily..... the meter used is critical for accuracy, but Free Style has failed this person and others terribly. EVERY one of them has discarded their Free Style meters for more reliable and dependable meters such as Bayer, OneTouch, and Accu-Chek.
Test strips are very expensive and there is no incentive for any person to waste money on strips for a meter that has been proven to be unreliable. Even if you sent the strips to a person, there is no purpose to trouble shoot because that phase has already been done by people. When a person takes the Free Style meter, the Bayer meter, and compared results to a dr's meter at the dr office, and results have shown that Free Style is always 'off', these people do not care.
I am simply trying to pay it forward and let Abbott know that their Free Style meters have issues, and many people are advising others to avoid the Free Style meter because of their issues.
Abbott needs to address issues with their meter's reliability in readings, especially when it affects one's health by giving falsely lower numbers.
Eva & Butters
Active Member
The Freestyle Lite discussion continues on the Lantus TR board: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=61200&p=662827#p662827
After your experiences with the Freestyle Lite meters and even though my husband and I are using other meters, we've started rethinking the need for periodic fructosamine tests as a double check on our meters.
Wishing you all a quick return to better regulation for your dear kitties with your new meters! And I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. Wonder what kind of quality control Abbott has for Freestyle Lite meters and test strips?
Eva
After your experiences with the Freestyle Lite meters and even though my husband and I are using other meters, we've started rethinking the need for periodic fructosamine tests as a double check on our meters.
Wishing you all a quick return to better regulation for your dear kitties with your new meters! And I'm so sorry you're having to go through this. Wonder what kind of quality control Abbott has for Freestyle Lite meters and test strips?
Eva
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