After several instances of pancreatitis, Ming is on 6 units twice daily

Morning! Sounds like your vet had some really good things to say..I love that she agreed that DM was high carb and that cats graze. I would go ahead and continue transitioning all the way to raw and kick the DM over time. I don't know why she would say to continue feeding it EVEN THOUGH it's high carb and then transition later. Not sure when later is supposed to be, but there's no reason I can think of to wait since we know raw will help you get Ming better regulated. I also agree with you about testing. It's very important to test at home daily. You do a great job of testing plenty at home. While you don't need to test every hour (most curves are every 2 hours), getting tests before every shot and then 2-3 more tests per day (at least at first) when you can is the best way to keep Ming safe and to help you achieve regulation.

Yes, bad teeth can cause higher BG. We've had kitties have dentals and later go off insulin...we've also seen kitties drop remission due to bad teeth. It's great that Ming's are okay! It's also great you get meds to take home!

I don't know much about IBD, so I'll leave that to others. All in all, it sounds great!
 
Couple of things - but I might have misread or misunderstood:
  • canned DM food is 6% carbs if it's the pate variety and 10% if it's the chunks in sauce variety so the pate if fine to feed. The dry version is too high in carbs for a diabetic.
  • 25 gauge needles are thicker than 29+ gauge (if you're referring to your insulin syringes - thicker gauge lancets are good for testing though).
I'm glad the 4 u dose is working right now while still giving you a bit of a safety cushion. :)
 
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  • canned DM food is 6% carbs if it's the pate variety and 10% if it's the chunks in sauce variety so the pate if fine to feed. The dry version is top high in carbs for a diabetic.
  • 25 gauge needles are thicker than 29+ gauge (if you're referring to your insulin syringes - thicker gauge lancets are good for testing though).

Just about to head to work so I’ll answer quickly: I think we were just talking in comparison to the freeze dried raw that it has a higher carb content. But I’m fine with sticking with it for a bit if needed and I’ll be continuing to test anyway. I have noticed that since being on DM, his stools are huge and he’s gotten bigger. Not sure if it’s because of the 6 u or the DM. We changed both at once and to answer Rachel’s question, I think that’s why my vet wants to stick with the diet right now just so we know exactly what’s going on. *shrug* I’m not sure how to feel about it yet but I’m not overly in agreement or disagreement about it.

I’m talking about the needles to test BG. How thick is better? I was using 23 G needles before. I used the 25 G three times already and felt okay about it. Except I made him bleed too much the first time.

And my sis has agreed to test AMPS so that’ll be up when it’s time :)
 
Hooray for sister! :bighug::bighug::bighug:

I usually test with 30G in cold weather and 33G in warm weather. The higher the number the smaller the needle. There isn't a good vs bad on that though. It's just whatever you have, whatever works for you, and whatever your kitty is okay with. I started with 25G and just got smaller as Sam's ears became easier to bleed.

I'm really impressed with your vet! (except for the testing part). Yes to the connection with both teeth and IBD. Lots of diabetic cats have a variety of conditions together and IBD and pancreatitis are both frequent partners with diabetes. If you aren't seeing symptoms of IBD (diarrhea and weight loss being the two most common) I wouldn't worry about it at this point. That's another thing that is greatly helped by a raw diet.

Your vet might be advocating for a slower food transition because a lot of vets still aren't all the way onboard with raw food. I think most people who are able to get their cats onto a raw only diet swear by it though. Do make sure you're re-hydrating the dehydrated raw food. Cats are notoriously dehydrated themselves and need all the help we can give them to keep their water intake up.

How is your weekend looking? I'm wondering if it's time to try a little increase?
 
Aw man, ming just puked after I saw him eating his old food (again!!! I forgot to put it away). This has happened before where the next day after a vet visit, he starts puking. I gave him bupe and tried my best to give him cerenia. He spat it out a few times but I think I eventually got some in him.

I did a reading a he’s 29.4. Should I still shoot even if he doesn’t eat? I’m leaving for work now but my sister is here. He’s resting now after the bupe.
 
Sis said he ate a bit! So we’re gonna shoot. Sorry I was in panic mode and didn’t read any of the comments!

What should I do in the future if he pukes and doesn’t eat but has a high BG? I’ll be asking that question to my vet as well.
 
Sometimes they don't eat because they are high and don't feel well. One trick is to see if he'll eat treats. If they won't eat at all, that is cause for serious concern as it's a leading sign of ketones. But if they'll eat something and are just feeling off, give them at least something, even if you reduce the dose a bit. Especially if there is someone around to keep an eye on him and to make sure he eats within an hour or two. Glad your sister is around to give the dose. You really do have a great team!
 
Oookay. So I ended up bringing Ming to my vet because my sister and mom were saying he's not well. And I spoke to another vet on site (not the one from yesterday) and asked for her opinion. She said it couldn't hurt to bring him in and see how he is and do blood work to make sure it's not pancreatitis again if necessary. My mom was able to drop him off in the afternoon. At the vet, he was eating and being his usual self. I covered his kennel door and he stuck his paw out underneath the door the whole time. The vet saw him but decided he seemed well and not painful and it was probably from stress and eating the old food (which I REALLY need to make sure I take away from now on). She said to continue with the cerenia and bupe for the next few days and really stressed to call her any time if I have concerns (just one of the perks of working at a clinic, I guess!)

I was a little disappointed we didn't do any tests but oh well. He had blood and urine work done at the end of August so that might be why she opted not to. And the last time he had blood work done, I was also scared he had pancreatitis but the test came back clean and nice.

This boy-cat is going to be the death of me. I was really out of it during work but thankfully, everyone understood and I apologized for being spaced out.

Surprisingly, his PMPS after home after the vet yesterday wasn't insanely high. Still high but not crazy. 24.2 (436).

How is your weekend looking? I'm wondering if it's time to try a little increase?

I'm wondering that too but I also think the last two days were a little crazy for him. And I was so exhausted when I got home last night that I passed out and didn't get any BG readings. I'll try to do some tonight though and today. I need to run much needed errands today so won't able to get readings during the day. My sis might be though if she's not doing anything :smuggrin: (thanks sis!) Unfortunately, I have work on Sunday and Monday and my next day off is Tuesday.

Your vet might be advocating for a slower food transition because a lot of vets still aren't all the way onboard with raw food. I think most people who are able to get their cats onto a raw only diet swear by it though. Do make sure you're re-hydrating the dehydrated raw food. Cats are notoriously dehydrated themselves and need all the help we can give them to keep their water intake up.

I was surprised with her positive answer, to be honest. Another coworker told me the vets there weren't all for raw so when I asked how she felt about it, she said she was perfectly fine with it. And knows that raw food has way more protein and no carbs and said the same to me about making sure it's hydrated. Maybe it's her vet schooling or just the sheer amount of stuff that has happened to Ming that made her decision to go for a slower transition.

Family makes it tough sometimes. Has she seen you giving the tests? How does Ming take the tests? Maybe if she sees that he isn't in pain, that will help. You could show her some of the videos online too to show that those cats just sit there.

My mom has seen me do a few tests. Sometimes he meows in protests and shrinks away. Sometimes, he just yelps. And at great times, it's like nothing happened. Once I get the right technique, I assume testing him won't be traumatic both physically and mentally lol.

I had another conversation with my mom after Ming saw the vet the first time and she was much more receptive about testing. I told her I would prefer if she could test and I think I will have to ease her slowly up to being comfortable about testing.

I really really really appreciate my family for being so helpful, truly. We all love Ming and really do treat him like a King. It's just hard when there are so many differing opinions and emotions. I need to remember that I have to be patient and considerate about my mom's feelings. She probably looks at me and thinks I'm insane for doing all of this haha. Thanks to you all for pointing out that I have a great team at home. I really don't know what I would do if I lived on my own with a diabetic cat (I know it's possible but it's definitely a million times harder.).

Long or odd schedules have to change depending on what the schedule is. Though it isn't ideal, we have had people who shoot 11/13 or 13/11 instead of 12/12 due to schedule. We've just adjusted the dose slightly to work around that. We've also had people who simply had to adjust shot time around crazy schedules and we had to just adjust the dose on some days so they could shoot early/late. I know you mentioned your schedule before, but can you remind me again what it is? We can take a look and see if we can find a general idea of what you might do.

Interesting!

My schedule can be complicated. I work 4 days a week with three different shift start/end times. I will list the time I am out of the house and back home below:
  • 615 AM to 645 PM
  • 645 AM to 715 PM
  • 8 AM to 9 PM
The times I get home can vary due to traffic. I start feeding at 700 AM/PM and wait to see if Ming pukes anything out after eating and then I shoot.

So usually, I'm only able to do one meal during work days. And the other another family member will do it. My mom is usually the one that does it but since she will be away for 2 and half weeks, we might run into some issues with being able to shoot on time. Everyone else works or has school so it would be best if I'm able to do it all when I'm working.

What do you all suggest?
 
Hmm.. I just did a +2 and his BG is the same as his AMPS... any thoughts? (it's less than 2 hours since though. I think I shot after 745 and now it's 925)

Edit: I looked at my SS again and saw that it spiked at +1 after his AMPS shot on the day I did a curve. Is it the food spiking it up more and then the insulin works later? Is that how it works?
 
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Hmm.. I just did a +2 and his BG is the same as his AMPS... any thoughts? (it's less than 2 hours since though. I think I shot after 745 and now it's 925)

Edit: I looked at my SS again and saw that it spiked at +1 after his AMPS shot on the day I did a curve. Is it the food spiking it up more and then the insulin works later? Is that how it works?

Yep. Typically there’s a food spike that seems to clear around +2 and then the ProZinc onset beginning around +3. There’s variance in there, of course, depending on the cat’s metabolism, etc, but that seems to be the general pattern, at least as far as we’ve observed with our cat.
 
How about an automatic feeder and spreading meals out during the cycle. Smaller meals more often.

The automatic feeder is a good idea! There’s usually someone in the house to give him snacks but yes, when my mom’s away, another family member who stays at home pretty much all day is also away so that leaves nobody in the home! I didn’t realize that until now. Thanks for the suggestion! I’m still concerned how that works in terms of insulin though if I’m late or how to shoot.
 
17.6 at +5 today. Should we keep 4u? I’m wondering if it’s because of vet stress.

Also I didn’t feed DM today because I assumed he’d be high and didn’t want to add to it.
 
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It's hard to know for sure since he's had a crazy couple of days, but I think you could probably go to 4.25u without putting him in danger. Do make sure it's during a cycle when you can monitor.
 
It's hard to know for sure since he's had a crazy couple of days, but I think you could probably go to 4.25u without putting him in danger. Do make sure it's during a cycle when you can monitor.

Ok. How often would I do BGs/what times during the cycle should I test?
 
A +3, +5, and +7 (maybe alternating with +4 and +6 and maybe +8 to round out your understanding of his curve) should cover the low part of the cycle, assuming a nadir of +6. It should let you see how fast and how low he is dropping and also that he’s beginning his way back up.

Also, re: my post #62 above ... If I am nervous about a dose, I will try to get a +2. If there isn’t much of a food spike at that test, we know to keep an extra eye on her.

Once you get more data, you probably won’t need the +7. You’ll know from the +5 (or +4, which is what we get at bedtime) where he’s headed for at nadir, which by that time will be just around the corner.
 
The automatic feeder is a good idea! There’s usually someone in the house to give him snacks but yes, when my mom’s away, another family member who stays at home pretty much all day is also away so that leaves nobody in the home! I didn’t realize that until now. Thanks for the suggestion! I’m still concerned how that works in terms of insulin though if I’m late or how to shoot.

Using the 5 compartment feeder If you feed at 7 you can set the feeder for a small meal at +3 or +4. Then again +9. Just no food 2 hours before shot times.
 
Hmmm 16.6 at +8.

He still seems off to me in terms of behaviour but not bad. Just a little wary but curious. I came home with a lot of freeze dried raw chicken treats! He sure knew I had them and went digging for the bag.

I also got him his Halloween costume!

Wiy6LP2.jpg

SuRrTax.jpg
 
LOL!!! I am dying laughing!!! Sam would quite literally shred the skin off my arms if I ever tried to put a costume on him. Ming is just sitting there like the sweetest little hot dog ever!!! What a darling kitty you have!!!
 
Haha!!! He’s got a very high level of tolerance for my shenanigans. A few Christmases ago I bought him collar-dress with bells for our family Christmas party. Halfway through, he got real mad at the collar and screamed at it trying to get it off. It was good while it lasted lol

Here are some more photos:

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C14F0AFA-FD42-4728-A0D7-9210E18BE04D.jpeg
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1DA374F7-44D3-41C1-9212-B280DE109553.jpeg
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I used to let him out in our yard on a leash and now I’ve sort of cat proofed the yard so he gets to go out without one now as long as he’s supervised. And sometimes he gets baths but rarely lol
 
20.7 @ PMPS. Lower than “normal”. I gave 4.25 u and will be taking readings at +3, +5, and +7.

Ming’s still a little out of it. Maybe it’s the bupe... but he’s eating well. Sister will delay giving bupe tomorrow just to see if there’s any change in his behaviour.
 
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Got super antsy and did a +2 reading and got 19.1.

Right when I decided to do it to push down my anxiety/worry for Ming, Ming decided to grace me with his presence (he was downstairs being kinda loafy but also just resting on his side) and meowed at me. Gave him some treats and played with him. Then said screw it and did a test. Don't know how I feel about 19.1. Good, bad? *shrug* We shall see!

I went to get my hair cut today and the hairdresser joked that I must be stressed because she found some white hairs, "but don't worry! They're hiding underneath." I shook an imaginary fist at Ming. Love 'em to death but dang it, boy!!!

I hope it's okay to talk about this stuff on the thread. I browsed the forum a bit and thought about posting in the off topic forum about how I'm feeling but didn't know if that's something people generally do. Is there a topic forum where people just unload their worries about their cats? :facepalm::p I'm also surprised this thread hasn't gone to 2 pages yet haha
 
Just finished the last test for the night. He hit 8.5 at +5 and is now at 15.4 at +7. Sis will be testing tomorrow too.
 
You can talk about anything you want in here! ProZinc is our own little family, and we care about the beans and the kitties both...so please feel free to vent about how you're feeling, even if it isn't at all cat related. I've done it plenty of times!

Looks like he had a pretty good cycle last night. Hit a nice blue which is always good...I'll be interested to see where this increase takes you!

I've been thinking about your schedule some. You said you work 4 days a week with the following 3 shifts:

  • 615 AM to 645 PM
  • 645 AM to 715 PM
  • 8 AM to 9 PM
So one day you work the same shift? Basically, if you can let us know which days you do which shift that will help us figure it out a bit more. :)
 
Yes, we are informal and small enough over here that it's fine to mix personal musings in with diabetes related conversation! And I absolutely love seeing pictures of everyone's kitties. Where do you get all of these great costumes!?? You're making me want to try it on my other cat and see if he'll let me dress him up.
 
At +4 (which is really +3.5 because my sister said she shot at 730AM) he was 17.1. Here’s hoping he gets some blues and that his PS readings go low. He seems to always do better at night...

I will answer your questions tonight, Rachel! At work and on a quick break at the moment. And I’m happy I can talk freely here. It’s nice to see people being so welcoming with new members and their posts. Thanks!
 
Not bad! Sure it's not a blue, but it's a solid yellow...and he IS getting a drop. Could just mean he needs more insulin...could mean he needs a cycle or two to settle in to a new dose. A lot of cats need that. As for nighttime...for some reason, most cats seem to go lower at night. Not ALL (ECID) but most of them. No idea why. :)
 
Thanks Rachel. You helped quell my anxiety over all of this today :)

Last night, I woke up just before Ming’s +7 reading from a horrible dream. I dreamt Ming was seizing, writhing and legs out stretched and reaching for something eyes all the way back. In my dream, I was in the middle of getting ready for bed and had a face full of cleanser but still grabbed Ming and ran into my parent’s car. We were driving to the emergency and he was still seizing and finally his eyes became lifeless. I thought he might be dead and was just about to feel for a heart beat when I woke up.

There was a millisecond where I thought the dream was real but instantly felt relieved when I realized it wasn’t. Surprisingly, I didn’t have much of a negative response to the dream and was able to go back to sleep with no problems. But that was definitely the worst nightmare I’ve ever had and the second dream where someone I loved passed traumatically.

My brain is definitely telling me to CHILL OUT. I did not chill out today until Rachel’s comment but I’m definitely feeling less worried now.

No wonder why I’m getting white hairs hahah

In some nice news, Ming’s PMPS was 19.8. Similar to this morning’s but at least it wasn’t 20+.
 
Wow! Well that tells me that you're definitely stressed. Time for my reminder that Ming is more than a number. Sure, he is in slightly higher than preferred numbers, but you're still early in the game. We're SAFELY moving him up to whatever insulin dose he needs. How does he seem to feel? Is he acting normal? Sleeping, eating, being himself? Gotta remember that how they feel is just as important as the numbers they are getting. Ming is going to be fine, and we're here to help when weird things happen.

I prescribe for you a nice glass of wine and an early night of uninterrupted sleep! I know you do a GREAT job of testing every day and night, but I think maybe going to bed early and allowing yourself to sleep and not worry might help. Let's see where he is tonight, but if he's in nice, safe numbers, I'd go to bed early. Gotta take care of yourself too! :bighug:
 
Thanks Rachel!! :cat::cat::cat:

He seems his normal self this morning and last night too. Siiiigh. You’re absolutely right. We’re just getting started and sTUFF happens haha. So far so good!

I was going to test last night at +6 and swore I set up alarms to do that and wake up for work but I set up NO alarms! And naturally woke up on time lol. So a blessing in disguise I supposed? 26.4 at +10 though (before AMPS). Unfortunately, no one can test today until PM but Ming’s mood is good and he’ll be fine.

I’m definitely going to spend my day off tomorrow relaxing. I don’t often drink alcohol but wine before bed sounds like a great idea :smuggrin:
 
13.9 at PMPS! Should I still shoot 4.25? I’m able to monitor after a few hours but will be out of the house in the beginning of the cycle
 
I shot 4.25 u. I’ll monitor juuuuuust in case. This is the lowest PS I’ve gotten. The last one that was that low resulted in hypo sooooo I hope this time it doesn’t
 
Hi Crista! I'm sorry no one was around here earlier! When you get an unusual PS like that, it's kind of a guess for any of us. My general rule is that as long as it's still yellow, and if you can monitor, stick with the regular dose. Your other options are:
1) a small reduction of 0.25 or 0.5u
2) a BCS (Big Chicken Shot) which is usually about half of the regular dose (useful if you're pretty sure kitty will be okay, but you need to sleep)
3) a token dose (in your case something like 1u) or
4) skip the shot (a last resort and to be avoided if possible, but sometimes necessary if the kitty is volatile or hard to predict)

The reason for sticking with the dose is that we base dosing on the mid-cycle numbers much more than the PS numbers. And you're mid-cycle numbers indicate that this is a safe dose. However, some cats will dive quickly when given the chance. The only way to know is to try it, collect the data, and see what happens.
 
I was faaaasssstttt asleep last night! I woke up late yesterday and then all day felt like a rush so I was exhausted! I like Djamila's advice above though!
 
Thanks for the info, Djamila and it’s no problem, Rachel!! I hope you had a good rest too :)

I slept through my alarm for some reason again?! Couldn’t get a mid cycle reading last night :( now I’m curious what happened but we’ll never know now lol... I will today though! He’s back up at 22.2 now at +10 and I’m going back to sleep until feeding time since I get a day off!!! Yay!!!!!!
 
No worries about sleeping through your alarm. The +3 and +4 gave you enough information to know that she was safe. If you look at your 9/18 cycle, you can see that by those hours, it was already clear that Ming was diving. Last night, it was clear that she wasn't. Once you see where she's trending, it's okay to just sleep. It's really important to take care of yourself in all of this too.
 
I had a relaxed testing plan today. I just did them when I remembered and maybe I completely missed nadir this AM cycle? But anyway, any thoughts so far? I wonder if an increase would be beneficial but he's also low-ish during the night. If there is an increase, I probably won't be increasing until a few days later when I get another day off.

Basically, if you can let us know which days you do which shift that will help us figure it out a bit more.

The next two weeks look like this with days I don't include as days off:
October 1: 645 AM - 715 PM
October 2: 645 AM - 715 PM
October 3: 8 AM - 9 PM
October 4: 615 AM - 645 PM

October 9: 645 AM - 715 PM
October 10: 8 AM - 9 PM
October 11: 645 AM - 645 PM
October 12: 645 AM - 715 PM

Where do you get all of these great costumes!??

The hot dog one I got from Homesense and the others I can't remember exactly... but most likely places like PetSmart or Amazon. The santa hat was actually from a teddy bear haha
 
Well first, I think you got your date wrong today. It looks like you put 9/24 twice, so I assume that the second one is actually today. ;)

I think I'd be inclined to bump to 4.5 soon. He is staying in pretty high numbers still, and you want to get in the nice, healing blue numbers some.

Let me think about your schedule some. I need to ruminate and we'll come up with a plan.
 
30.8 at PMPS. I’ll be shooting 4.5 u tonight. Also I need more strips! Lol I have enough for tonight and tomorrow.

Is there a reason why the numbers/cycles are sort of inconsistent? Or is it just the nature of the journey until we find that sweet dosage number and gather enough data? He wasn’t stressed all day (at least not visibly) and I’d say his hunger has decreased since 4 u.
 
Hunger decreasing is a very good sign. Generally, the numbers are probably kind of funky because we haven't found the dose that works for Ming right now. That can make cycles kind of of wonky in numbers.
 
If you look back, it looks like the 6u was overdosing him. So we dropped him down to 4u to get him into a safer range. Then it was a matter of waiting for him to settle out a bit. You can see that on the 4u he had a couple of good cycles, and then has been slowly rising. Since the blues have disappeared, that tells us that the lower cycles were still a side effect of the overdosing. So now we start to climb the dosing ladder again, except this time slowly and methodically to avoid overdosing him again.

So yes, the increase was a good idea. And I would keep going with increases around every 4-6 cycles as your schedule allows until you start to see some blues or high greens again. Then you may need to slow down a bit on the increases.

Of course keep posting so we can help keep an eye on things, that's just kind of a general overview of what happens now in case you're a big-picture kind of person. :)

Also, remember that he's been going through a food transition which can make things a little wonky. And when looking at the data, it's important to look at the broader view of a few cycles at a time, not just each cycle as its own thing since all of us have variations from day to day. Like when you go for a run or go to work out: some days you have tons of energy, and other days it feels like the hardest thing ever. Our bodies vary depending on how hydrated we are, how well we slept, how we're feeling, what and how much we've eaten, the weather, and on and on. Cats are like that too. Some days are just better than others and we can't always know why.
 
Got it! Thank you for the explanations :) it helped answer more questions than I originally asked! I’m definitely a big picture person and want to know what to expect. I’m starting to get the hang of this and did think about increasing his dose depending on how 4.5 u reacts in his next few cycles.

He’s pretty much on raw now since I’m super low on DM and some meals, depending on his number, I just don’t give any DM at all. His bowel movements seem fine and he doesn’t seem uncomfortable.
 
Speaking of poop...(oh, the things we talk about here!)...as cats get onto all raw food, their poop often becomes small and rather dry. When Sam was transitioning, I thought he was constipated or that something was wrong with him. Turns out it's perfectly normal that they make very little waste when eating raw. There is a great youtube video about cat poop if you have too much time on your hands today...:eek:

 
Ahhh...watching cat poop videos! Relaxing way to spend some time. Seriously, though, when we transitioned to raw food, I actually went to a FB group about feeding raw and they have an entire photo album of poop pics! I spent some time looking at them to compare them to Tigress's poops.
 
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