Advise please

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Alan

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My cat aged 8 was diagnosed with diabetes in Oct. Had usual symptoms, weight loss, ravenous, thirsty etc. The vet put him on insulin
and after three months and three hypo's he seemed to recover. We then tried to manage his diabetes with diet.
However he never really gained weight and his weight has dropped again. he is ravenous, less thirsty, then before.
The vet did a fructamose? test and we put him back on insulin together with a diabetic diet. He gets 2 sachets of Royal cannine
obesity management food and 35g of dry food same make.

However he is still loosing weight. Its only a week since he was back on the insulin.

Any advise.
 
Alan, What kind of insulin and how much are you giving him? How much does your cat weigh? Do you home test your cat?

David
 
Feline diabetics, like human diabetics, do better on a low carb diet. Dry food is much higher in carbohydrates than wet food. Plus, think about how thirsty your guy is--does it make sense to add to that thirst by feeding "dry" food?
 
Hi

He is on caninsulin and we give him 2 units in the morning and the same in the evening. His last reading at the vets was just under 4 that was 4 hours after his am feed and he wasn't back on insulin at that point.
The dry food is special formula for diabetic cats its low in carbs and high in protein. we also give him the same high protein wet food.

his weight is 4kg but when he was well it was over 5kg. He is a large cat.

We don't have a home test kit.
 
4? for us here in the States you multiply that by 18 to get a number we would understand. which means that was a 72. which is a really really good normal number and even better given that he wasn't on insulin at that point.

why was he put back on insulin exactly? just because of the weight thing or did he start throwing diabetic numbers again?

i would strongly urge you to look into getting a test kit. with proper treatment, including hometesting, a cat should never have a hypo in all honesty, and in my opinion, not to put down your vet but something is obviously wrong with their treatment plan if your cat has had three of them.

Also, I can't find a Royal Canin dry food at all in the charts that's under 24 as far as carbohydrates go and since the goal is to feed a food under 10, i'd either eliminate the dry food altogether or find one that is lower in carbs than that
 
Hi

I think the measurements are confused. Our vet uses gL. the norm range is 0.75 - 1.59.

The dry food we give is 42 percent protein and 18 percent carb. But we only feed a little of this.
 
Alan i will tell you my story. Spicey had 2 hypos within 2 weeks. I found out she was not eating and I was giving her pzi 5 units 2x daily. I was not home testing. After her hypos I couldn't get her to eat. Thank goodness I found this site. It really helped. The first thing I did was I went out and bought a Relion Micro glucose meter and the test strips and the lancets at Walmart. All of it cost under $50.I started to home test her. I also cut back on her insulin becasue it seemed like she was sensitive to insulin. Spicey also ate dry food. She was eating Frsikies special diet. I had no idea that dry food contains at least 35% carbs. So it made sense to me to switch her diet. I had asked the vet about switching her diet and he told me not to change anything. Now when a human is diabetec they have to change their diet as my mom did for hers. So i decided that I was going to pull all the dry food. I went to the vet and bought food that I though was for diabetec cats the canned hills prescription m/d and found out that was high in carbs and i got links to the food charts and now feed her wet canned friskies special diet beef and chicken.

Spicey would hardley eat it. I also started weighing her food before and after to make sure she eats. She does eat, she is a little skinny but I know that she is eating. And after i started home testing and cutting back on the insulin which is very good because if you cut back on the carbs you have to cut back on the insulin. I am a little concerned that she is not eating enough because if she weighs 11 lbs she needs to eat at least 160g of food a day. She doesn't eat that. But every cat is different. All i know is that spicey is eating and we cut her insulin from 5 units 2x day to .6 2x a day and have not had any numbers close to a hypo but once and she ate and the nunbers came up after 30-45 mins later.

And when i started home testing i had low numbers and freaked out and started using this site. At first i felt a little defensive about the food issue and felt like i was not a good pet owner. But after reading links on the diet and food info here it started to make sense.

So i hope this helps. Can't really advise you what to do but that is my experience with my cat.
David
 
I will talk to the vet abt the home testing kit. I was only pointing out that her measurements are not normal.

I think the info you have on European standards has changed. Our vet uses a measure called GL.

I have the lab result which shows the norm range as 0.75 - 1.59.

When he was diagnosed diabetic in Oct we stopped all dry food. His readings improved

and with each hypo his readings improved and he seemed to recover.

We only started the dry food recommended by the vet. I will talk to the vet but she says its specially formulated

its not cheap cat dry supermarket food. We have to weigh it out and its 18 percent carb.

But I will discuss and return to wet.
 
oh alan im in the us so the readings may be different than what you use and i never talked about home testing with the vet. Humans have to test themselves. And one thing i have learned from all of this is always test before i give her insulin.

David
 
also don't be suprised if the vet tells you otherwise on some of the things. Just do research and ask alot of questions.
If you need us for anything just ask.

David
 
The only units I'm aware of that are GL is know as the Glyceamic Load test, which relates to the glyceamic index of certain foods (each unit of GL has the same effect on blood glucose as consuming 1 gram of pure sugar) this is something that athletes keep track of though. Many diabetic plan thier meals by looking at the G-index of thier foods. Foods with a GI value under 55 are considered low. But I have no idea how this is relevant to cats.
 
Please check out this site by a vet: http://www.catinfo.org. She explains why dry food is not good for any cat, but especially for diabetics.

We are telling you things counter to what your vet has said. But you came on this site because your vet's program wasn't working well - right? Everyone on this site has or has had a diabetic cat and is successfully treating them with the proper food and the right dosages of insulin determined by bg tests at home. Your job, as a feline parent, is to do your research and treat your cat with methods that will lead her to regulation.

Start by reading the FAQ's on the cover page of this forum and the site above, and the site given to you for food charts. Many of us had to learn this on our own. I love my vet, but she knows a little about a lot of things, and is not a diabetic expert. She started us on way too much insulin and was skeptical of our hometesting. But. after we got Oliver off insulin and healthy, she is now a convert to hometesting and asks us to help others. We agree to disagree on food. (She likes wet food but recommends prescription food which I have found is not as good as the food at the grocery store and is unnecessarily expensive.)

We can only provide you with our experiences and information. You have to do your research and decide for yourself. We would love to help you on this journey.
 
Your dry food, being 18% carbohydrate by weight, is actually much higher than that by calorie content. And even carbohydrates at 18% of calories is too high for a diabetic cat. We try here to keep it under 10, since diabetic cats can't really handle the blood sugar spike that comes with eating carbohydrate.

The problems with letting your vet test blood sugar are:

1) Stress of being at the vet's will drive that number up, and
2) Blood sugar numbers vary hour-to-hour, and while on insulin can vary between life-threatening low and blood-burningly high, all within the same day. So a single reading at the vet's is basically meaningless. Imagine a human diabetic trying to control his diet with a weekly blood sugar reading. Can't be done.

Your only real control begins when you learn to test that blood sugar at home, and remove all dry and high-carb food. It's easy, and you can start with this nice video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8

Keep on coming back for more good advice!

Best,
Steve
 
Take a breath and read the posts here... I think you may be giving too much insulin to start. Most cats start at 1 unit twice a day and work up. It seems your vet is old school and has not kept up on the latest treatment of Feline Diabetes.

Check out Dr. Lisa's site, as suggested.... but also see this article on prescription foods. Why do you really need a prescription for your dog’s food? … just follow the money!. It's not just about dog food. The "prescription" foods have nothing in them that are prescription. Vets suggest them when they are either brainwashed, in it for the money, or just have not studied nutrition.

It's a common problem. Educate yourself and then education your vet.



And as soon as you can, start home testing...That is the best way to know when, if ever, your cat needs insulin. It sounds to me as if you might be able to get your kitty diet controlled if you feed a low carb (under 10%) wet food and give a tiny about of insulin to start. Then, home test and increase the dose only if after a settling time (about 4 days for each dose) the numbers before the shot and at the nadir (peak of the cycle when the BG is the lowest) are not improving.


Does this make sense to you? You can ask all the questions you want... keep reading and asking.. We've all been where you are.
 
Hi Alan and Welcome
Based on your talk of kg's are you in Canada by chance?
Is there a specifc reason your vet chose Caninsulin over other types of insulins?
 
Alan said:
I think the measurements are confused. Our vet uses gL. the norm range is 0.75 - 1.59.
Click to expand...

Hi, Alan! It sounds as if your vet is using g/L -- grams per liter. I've been here ten years, and I've never seen that used before. The general world standard (except for the USA, of course!) is to use mmol/L.

If it is grams per liter, the conversion factor is to multiply by 100 to get mg/dl.

Due to a peculiarity of arithmetic, the carbohydrate content of dry food by weight (in this case 18%) is likely to be in the same ballpark as carbohydrate content expressed as a percent of calories. (The same is true of protein, but not fat.) So for a dry food, that's not dreadful, but as the others have commented, it does promote higher blood glucose than feeding wet meat-based food with minimal or no grains.

-- Janet
 
Hi

Thanks for all the advise. I have stopped the dry food. For now until I can identify a good alternative I am giving him Royal canine Obesity management wet pouches. This link provides content details http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/PDF/obesity ... feline.pdf. this was what the vet had recommended.


I live in France but am British. The measurements are French? I guess

I wondered if anyone knows a food called Bozita. The link is below.



I will look at home testing kits not sure how I will manage with conversion tables etc.
 
sorry a English link for Bozita is http:http://www.bozita.com/en/Feline/Productgroups/Bozita-Feline-tetra/crayfish/
 
Bozita is a brand from Sweden, the quality is supposed to quite good. Several people I know one the german forum with diabetic cats have fed it. I assume you are only considering the canned/wet varieties. Bozita does make at least one dry food for kittens which is again to high in carbohydrates and is well...dry, which is not the optimal for any cat. If you are interested in trying it here is a company that delivers (prices are usually pretty good) shipping is free on orders over 39€ in France. The company is in Germany but has websites in all European countries and delivers all over. http://www.zooplus.fr/shop/chats/boites_sachets_barquettes_chat/bozita_boites_chat
 
Thanks, yes only the wet. If anyone has any other suggestions for wet food the products on the zoo site are available in France.
 
Here is the list from the German site what most of us feed our diabetic cats.

# Animonda Carny Kitten
# Animonda Carny Adult
# Animonda Carny Ocean
# Animonda Carny Fisch Menü
# Animonda vom Feinsten Classic
# Animonda vom Feinsten Grandis
# Animonda vom Feinsten Kitten
# Animonda vom Feinsten für kastrierte Katzen
# Animonda Vom Feinsten Pure
# Animonda vom Feinsten Senior
# Bozita Dose
# Bozita Paté (enth. Macrogard)
# Miamor Bio
# Miamor Pastete
# Miamor Milde Mahlzeit
# Porta 21
# RopoCat Adult
# Ropocat Feinstes Fleisch
# Schesir Natural
# Schesir Pur
# ShinyCat


I have also fed Gourmet Gold (which is sold in the US as Fancy Feast) preferably only the pâté ones (others contain sauces or jelly with sugar or plant starch) Whiskas pouches (Whiskas Mmmmmm) or Felix pouches (As good as it looks, Aussi bon que beau) I also feed several discount brands found at local grocery shops like Lidl and Aldi (Lidl Opticat, or Aldi Shah and Lux)
 
Thanks thats really helpful. I like the reviews of Bozita and was thinking abt the junks in jelly, Animoda also looks really good. I have also been looking at Blood glucose meters and wondered what people thought of Alphatrack?
 
as far as the AlphaTrak goes, I don't think it is worth the extra money. It is a meter desgined for use on dogs and cats, it is from Abbott who also makes human meters (Freestyle, Precision) the test strips are very expensive and can usually only be ordered through your vet or online. It isn't more accurate than any other meter, and as far as I know it is not very handy to use and requires considerably more blood than the newest human models.

I have several meters and am happy with most of them. I have used, Bayer Contour, the Freestyle Freedom Lite, the Precision Xceed, and Lifescan OneTouch Vita. All use a small amount of blood (.3ul to .6ul) and deliver tests results in less than 5 sec. All meters were free from the manufacturer and test strips are available in any pharmacy or through mail order, and often I got great deals on Ebay.

Try the websites for these manufacturers in your country they may have an offer when you sign up for thier diabetes newsletter you can get a free meter sent to you. Here is Abbott's Precision Xceed in France http://www.abbott.fr/abbott/Nos pro...erapeu&itemId=4494&nodePath=/19/275/1596/4490
 
Hi

Just been having chat with my vet due to see her later. I mentioned changing to a low carb high protein diet. Wanted to try a wet food called Bozita its 93 percent meat, no cereal.

Presently using Royal cannine wet. But she says high meat diet /protein can damage a cats liver long term. Has anyone heard of this?
 
Alan said:
Hi

Just been having chat with my vet due to see her later. I mentioned changing to a low carb high protein diet. Wanted to try a wet food called Bozita its 93 percent meat, no cereal.

Presently using Royal cannine wet. But she says high meat diet /protein can damage a cats liver long term. Has anyone heard of this?
Click to expand...

Nope can't say as I have........If not meat and protein then what is a cat supposed to eat? What do "homeless"/wild cats eat?

mice, birds, snakes, lizards, grasshoppers, trash..........

what is in those things? MEAT! bones, fur, blood, fat, organs, egg shells, moldy cheese..... :-D

A diet of pure meat (meaning you only feed your cat boneless chicken breast everyday) is not adequate, bones or calcium is also required as well as some minerals and taurine. These things are added in any cat foods that are designated as COMPLETE food, as long as you are feeding a complete food there should be no problem. What does she suggest as "other" ingredients that a cat should have?
 
Monique & Spooky said:
as far as the AlphaTrak goes, I don't think it is worth the extra money. It is a meter desgined for use on dogs and cats, it is from Abbott who also makes human meters (Freestyle, Precision) the test strips are very expensive and can usually only be ordered through your vet or online. It isn't more accurate than any other meter, and as far as I know it is not very handy to use and requires considerably more blood than the newest human models.
Click to expand...

I just want to note that the AlphaTrak actually takes 0.3µL, just as small as the Relion Micro and other newer human models. There are other reasons for not wanting to use the AlphaTrak (mainly just cost), but blood amount is NOT one of them even though I see people say that often here.
 
Hi

We have started feeding him on a mix of Royal canine wet and Bozita. Planning to switch totally to Bozita. Have ordered glucose meter. Vet has offered to check meter against own measurement.
Its only been a couple of days so to early. Fingers crossed.
 
make sure that you and the vet test the same drop of blood, from kitty's ear or paw pad. alot of times the client will test the ear and the vet will test blood they draw out of a vein in the cat's leg or neck.......two different things and you will get two widely different readings
 
An update and some more advise please. We started our cat on Bozita and thats gone fine and I bought a glucometer Alphatrack.

Blood testing has gone better then I thought!

readings are mmol/l

Day1
16.7 am Before meal
2.6 Noon
13.8 Evening before meal

Day 2
17.6 am before meal
11.2 pm before meal.

The vet originally put him on 2.5 units. We lowered it to 2 or 1.5 after the first days readings. This seems to have worked and he has stopped his mini hypos now.

My only concern is he still hasn't gained weight. His weight remains abt the same. We feed him at the same time as the injection
He is on Caninsulin. He eats 430g of wet per day! he eats everything!

Any thoughts or guidance appreciated.
 
Hi Alan!

You are making some positive moves, I'm so glad you found us!

The testing will help you figure out how the insulin is working and you can tweak the dose from there. The weight issue will improve once you get a better dose so have a bit of patience while you collect data. Now that you are testing, please get 'spotchecks' when you can at 4-5 hours after shot, as this is when caninsulin tends to reach peak effectiveness. You need to know not only what his blood glucose levels are at shot time but also at peak, so you can determine how well the insulin is working.

Finally, your vet's comments about diet are incorrect; there used to be a thought that a high protein diet might be hard on KIDNEYS not liver, but it is now shown that unless your cat is end stage renal failure, there is no need to reduce protein.

Jen
 
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