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KittyMom777

KittyMom777

Member Since 2014
Not sure how to word my question - but basically, I am in the middle of trying to regulate my cat's newly diagnosed diabetes - we don't have him regulated yet. However, after I changed his diet to low carb, high protein and started him on the start low, go slow lantus regime, his outward symptoms improved. He was no longer drinking like crazy, his appetite was back to normal and he stopped dropping weight so fast.

However, yesterday I came home and he was ravenously hungry and literally was grabbing my hand trying to get my dinner after I'd fed him his. His water dish was empty and his back legs were much much worse.

Two questions - is this normal to have a set back? and also, I have ordered methylcobalamin and it should arrive on Monday. How long does it take to see an improvement.

Currently: -

On 2 unit am only (yes, I know I am to give in evening too and I am waiting til tomorrow when I am home to make the changes). I am terrified to change on my own as vet said to give 2 units at night too and I am scared to not do what they say. I am thinking to give 1 and a half morning and evening. I think 2 is too much. He gets one tin of Fancy Feast plus 1/2 cup DM Purina dry food split between two meals a day.

PLEASE someone look at his curve and give me comment on whether this looks like Somogyi effect. He didn't drop to hyperglycemia level but he did drop fast.

Please help me know what to do this weekend. Do I increase dose, do I feed more? do I do another curve?
 

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Are you testing at all at home?

Because the answer could be very different depending on the numbers you are seeing if you are at home.

Being Ravenous can mean two things, either they are very high and starving because their bodies can use the food they've eaten

or

Because they are heading for hypo and their self protect mode is telling them to eat to bring them back up.

The only way to know which is which is to test at home while the symptom is showing.

My little girl was ravenous last night still after she was fed an hour prior, I tested she was at 46, and heading for hypo so I spent most of last night feeding her back up.

Wish that was a more helpful answer but without real-time numbers its impossible to tell if it was a set back or if he was in danger of going too low and was hungry because he needs less insulin not more.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
I am trying to test at home but its very difficult during the week as I am working and generally out the house for 10-12 hours. Only this week I've had an unusual late week so am out from 6:45am until 9:45pm.

I would like to start him tonight on an evening dose but I do not know what to give him. I will be home at 9:30pm, his morning shot and food was at 6:45am. I wish I was home during the day to do proper tests like I see others doing on here - they test several times a day - but its impossible when I live alone and work full time. Is there any way I can get help tonight as to what I should give him?
 
Also - I struggle to understand the US numbers - I am in Canada and we measure mml/L. I do not even know what a cat's ideal numbers should be. Too new at this and the vet isn't giving me much info.
 
For the conversion, you multiply your number by 18 to get our US numbers, or you can use the spread sheet to input your info and it converts it for you. I would suggest starting a spreadsheet for your use, your vets, and also for us for when you have questions. Here is the info for setting one up.
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207&start=0

As to testing, we understand it is hard to get mid day tests in because of schedules. We just ask that you try when ever available because it is helpful but it is VERY important to test before each shot. If you shoot blind you can send your kitty into hypo, and hypo can kill.

Unsubstantiated information about pet-specific meter reference numbers has been removed by Moderator.


Your goal is 2.8-7.2

A lot of vets do not have current info on feline diabetes. Your vet may be willing to learn, you never know.

With Lantus you need 2 shots a day 12 hours apart. They need to be the same dosage so I do not recommend 2 units in the morning and .5 at night. I would do 1 and 1, but have never used Lantus this is just from info I have read so hopefully someone with lantus experience will advise. Have you joined the lantus support group?

I know it is hard and scary to derive from what your vet tells you, BUT you have to do what you feel is best. I really recommend you read all the lantus sticky's and also the info on catinfo.org on feline diabetes and also lantus.
 
Thanks. The numbers are good info.

I am keeping a spreadsheet - it is here attached. I am waiting for someone to try and interpret it for me but I haven't had a response yet.

Thanks
 

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The curve is helpful, but its not at the same time. Its hard to give input with just one curve, but looking at the curve itself I would say he dropped way too fast and BOUNCED back up at night. Thats the problem with the one shot AND it being so high. The amount drops him down too fast and freaks his pancreas out and produces to much insulin to compensate causing his numbers to sky rocket at night, then it starts all over the next day.
 
The problem is the curve is from November 1st if I'm reading it correctly. That doesn't tell us or you what his blood sugar was doing last night.

And to correct a bit of information. When they drop too fast or too low it freaks out their liver which causes the liver to dump stored glucose and counter-regulatory hormones to drive the numbers back up again.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Hello. What is your name and your kitty's name? We would like to help you but we need you to set up a spreadsheet to contain all the testing that you do. Even though you are away for a long time during the day, it will be crucial to start collecting your data so your kitty will be safe while you are gone. Before each shot, you will test, feed and then shoot all in about 10 minutes two times a day (usually 12 hours apart). Then you will record each time you test on to your spreadsheet. On a previous post, you were given a link to set your spreadsheet. So this is the first thing you will want to do.

What kind of insulin are you using? The quick drop may be due to an insulin that has a short duration. Most people here use Levemir, Lantus or ProZinc. They are a little longer lasting.

When you start giving insulin, the rule of thumb that is followed here is to start low and slow. You don't want to give too much without knowing what a higher dose will do to your kitty. Many start with .5 or .6 depending on the syringe that you are using and more than probable, will increase until you find a dose that works.
 
That's called the Symogyi effect. I know. But his levels did not drop to or close to hyperglycemic levels.

I can only do a curve or test at the weekends like I said.
 
MommaOfMuse said:
The problem is the curve is from November 1st if I'm reading it correctly. That doesn't tell us or you what his blood sugar was doing last night.

And to correct a bit of information. When they drop too fast or too low it freaks out their liver which causes the liver to dump stored glucose and counter-regulatory hormones to drive the numbers back up again.

Mel and The Fur Gang
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Thank you Mel :oops: thinking and typing too fast lol
 
I just got a call from the vet who wanted to be sure I was giving 2 units a day twice a day as she instructed. I didn't want to say I hadn't increased him yet.

She also told me NOT to give Methylcarbolamin as she said she was on the Vitacost website and they all contain high levels of sugar that would affect his glucose levels. I already ordered some and this is what it said the ingredients were:



Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 1 Capsule

Servings per Container: 100
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
Vitamin B12 (as methylcobalamin) 5000 mcg 83,333%
Other Ingredients: Rice flour, vegetable stearic acid, gelatin and vegetable magnesium stearate.

Is it not good to give him the methyl as the vet says, or is it safe like many members on here do? I am getting so confusing advice from the vet and on here and I am at a loss to know what to do. Vet says one thing, many on here say different things...everyone has an opinion and its all different. Help!!
 
Okay let me see if I can explain this slightly better.

Did you get a test in when he was acting ravenous last night? If so what was the number?

You don't need to run a full curve every day, just spot checks. I test mine most days 3-4 times but then again I'm home, I've been testing for literally years so I can pretty much get blood out of an ear any time I want to. I've gotten very quick at it because of years of practice. Most folks will get 2-3 sometimes 4 daily when following SLGS. Tight regulation because they adjust doses faster than we, who follow start low go slow do, have to test more often to keep their kitties safe.

Now a bounce is different that Symogi's rebound effect. Symogi's is caused by being overdosed on insulin, where they go low, jump back up and stay there with maybe a small dip towards the end of the cycle. A check mark instead of a smiley face pattern to the curve.

A bounce they can do off any number, they don't have to go anywhere dangerously low to bounce, just lower than they are use to being.

Their body has gotten use to being in the 400s or 500s and that feels normal now to their body, so when you start adding insulin and bringing those numbers back down even into the 300s that to the cat's body feel like they are dropping too low and it panics to prevent what it reading as a hypo setting in. We know it's a safe number but that isn't what it feels like inside to them. The liver doesn't have the ability to think logically. It just reacts.

Kind of like going on a diet, at first your really hungry, because your body has gotten use to more food than what is needed to maintain a set body weight, so when you stop giving it those large portions its hungry, your stomach growls. You logically know you have eaten plenty but your stomach doesn't. The longer your on that diet, the less and less hungry you are after eating a healthy sized portion. Kind of the same thing here. The longer we help them stay in normal numbers or even lower numbers then where they were before starting treatment the less the liver freaks out and the less it causes a glucose dump. It relearns what normal feels like.

Making sense so far. If not let me know where I lost you and I'll try to back up.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
MommaOfMuse said:
Okay let me see if I can explain this slightly better.

Did you get a test in when he was acting ravenous last night? If so what was the number?

You don't need to run a full curve every day, just spot checks. I test mine most days 3-4 times but then again I'm home, I've been testing for literally years so I can pretty much get blood out of an ear any time I want to. I've gotten very quick at it because of years of practice. Most folks will get 2-3 sometimes 4 daily when following SLGS. Tight regulation because they adjust doses faster than we, who follow start low go slow do, have to test more often to keep their kitties safe.

Now a bounce is different that Symogi's rebound effect. Symogi's is caused by being overdosed on insulin, where they go low, jump back up and stay there with maybe a small dip towards the end of the cycle. A check mark instead of a smiley face pattern to the curve.

A bounce they can do off any number, they don't have to go anywhere dangerously low to bounce, just lower than they are use to being.

Their body has gotten use to being in the 400s or 500s and that feels normal now to their body, so when you start adding insulin and bringing those numbers back down even into the 300s that to the cat's body feel like they are dropping too low and it panics to prevent what it reading as a hypo setting in. We know it's a safe number but that isn't what it feels like inside to them. The liver doesn't have the ability to think logically. It just reacts.

Kind of like going on a diet, at first your really hungry, because your body has gotten use to more food than what is needed to maintain a set body weight, so when you stop giving it those large portions its hungry, your stomach growls. You logically know you have eaten plenty but your stomach doesn't. The longer your on that diet, the less and less hungry you are after eating a healthy sized portion. Kind of the same thing here. The longer we help them stay in normal numbers or even lower numbers then where they were before starting treatment the less the liver freaks out and the less it causes a glucose dump. It relearns what normal feels like.

Making sense so far. If not let me know where I lost you and I'll try to back up.

Mel and The Fur Gang
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I haven't been able to do any week day testing I keep saying that. I can only test at the weekend as I am out all day and I am so rushed in the morning I give him his food and insulin and go. I am gone 12 hrs a day and spend the evenings and weekends at home. It takes me forever to test as I am new at it and no time to do this in the morning. I leave my house at 6:45 am! I don't understand the jargon, I am still trying to wrap my head around the diagnosis. I think I am following SLGS.

Can you answer the question re methyl b-12 above your post, if you know
Thanks.
 
This is what my vet just sent me.....do you guys agree having seen his curve - I know, its only one curve, I will do another one tomorrow and update this thread.

I know I am not probably using the correct tools as yet, but I find excel easy to use and I have so much to learn right now that I am using the tools I already know how to use.

Hi,

I think the reason that you are seeing the increased hunger and drinking is because he is not getting enough insulin yet. Once you manage to do that and we manage to find the right amount that he needs I think these clinical signs will disappear or at least greatly improve.

The Somogyi effect occurs when too much insulin is being given and typically the BG plummets at some point and when the body tries to compensate for this it goes sky high again. It looks like the insulin is not having any effect because BG levels are consistantly high when they are being measured every 2-3 hours. The drop is missed. To catch the somogyi effect BG readings need to be taken every 30min as the BG is getting low in order to asses if it is going below 4mmol/l. This is not the case with Silver.

Given his size and weight it is highly unlikely that we are overdosing the insulin. We haven't managed to regulate him yet and 2U once daily is not enough. We have just started. It has only been 4 weeks of preliminary dosing. When we atre giving 6U twice daily and things are still not working, then that can be considered.

I would continue with the B12 just use the injections from here, for now. (side note - she means don't use the methyl b12 tabs I bought but the cyano b12 she gave me)

I hope that all makes sense,

Dr. Susanne Graf
 
The vet is not there with you and your kitty. I know, you want to do what your vet says but I agree, it's too much at one time.

I would do the 1u., 2x/day, 12 hrs apart.

I am a "newbie" too since mid September. If I have learned anything from this forum it's this...everyone here has been in your shoes with their own kitties. They are giving you advice because of their own experience and what they've learned from this forum. No one would tell you anything that is going to hurt your kitty.

That being said, my vet told me to up Hanks insulin up to 6u. and to start the new dose right away. I chose not to cause I was in the process of changing his food to a low carb dry and hadn't told my vet yet. The vet had repeatedly told me not to change his food (even knowing that I had Hank on high carb dry kibble) cause it would make it harder for him to get Hank regulated. Had I done what my vet had advised me, Hank may not be here today.

Don't get me wrong, I know the vet is trained and a professional but he is not at home with Hank and I to know what all is going on with his care.

I have told the vet that I was in the process of switching his food and that next I wanted to switch his insulin (which we did on 10/25/14).
You know what he said to me? He said that I was doing great, that I had "the bull by the horns" and that he's never had anyone do so much to help their cat before.

He said that some people put their cats down and for the others, he try's to make it as simple as possible for them without doing home testing. Wow, Huh?

So you see, have open communication with you vet...tell her that you don't feel comfortable with that dosage. Tell her that you'd rather go slow and low doses at first.

I send my vet weekly copies of Hank's SS. He told me he likes the spread sheet too. He's very excited about Hank's progress even though his and my goal are 2 different goals. His is to have Hank regulated and mine is to see Hank in remission!!

I hope this helps to sort things out for you. I was where you are a month and a half ago.

Take care,
Kimmie
 
Testing takes about 5 minutes. It is one ear stick. If you didn't test last night there is no way of knowing if he was or was not too low and that is why he was ravenous. Which is what we are trying to explain. A curve done a week ago doesn't tell anyone what he was doing last night.

As far as the Methyl b12 there is no sugar in the ingredients you listed, a small amount of carbs from the rice flour , but not enough to hurt anything as the tablets are tiny. we are talking no bigger than tic-tac mint. And those mints are probably bigger.

I have used it with all 3 of my diabetic cats with no side effects and I truly believe that they regained the strength in their legs because of it when they were still extremely sick in the beginning.

If you are going to use insulin for your cat, and you want to keep him safe while on it. Then you may have to get up a little earlier in the mornings so you can test before each shot. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but a hypo can kill your cat very quickly, I know I lost my first girl to one overnight. Since then I would no more give my cats insulin than I would my own children or myself without testing first. Nor would any human diabetic, it isn't safe. These are living creatures and what happens in their bodies one day to the next isn't the same.

If you will let us, we can help you get your cat regulated and might even help you get him off insulin. But it will also take work on your part. And you are going to have to decide who you are going to trust. Your vet, or other owners of diabetic cats that are treating and have been treating their cats successfully.

We know it's hard, we know it is confusing at first, and that a lot of it is conflicting information. Because we have all been right where you are now, and those of us that are responding to you are doing so because we are paying it forward for the help we received when we were in your shoes right now. We love our cats, and would never in a million years do anything to harm them or put them in danger in any way, nor will we ever put your cat in harms way. But frankly some of the information from your vet is wrong or out-dated. Vet's are human, they are fallible, they can't stay current on every new medical breakthrough for every species they see. All we do is live, breathe, sleep and eat feline diabetes because our furry babies lives depend on us stay up to date and current on how to help them the best way we can.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Maybe a couple pictures will help


This is my Cassanova when I adopted him last September, his previous owner was doing exactly what the vet told her to do...to the letter. The vet had him on wet and dry DM and poor Cassanova was tipping the scales at 37 lbs. and on 11 u of Lantus He was one sick kitty still after 2 years of treatment.


Cassanova 8 months after I adopted him and followed the protocol that I had learned here...Healthy at 17 lbs, he's a big cat bone structure wise. And insulin free.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 

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I know what you mean about feeling like you don't have time in the mornings to test cause you're not very good at it. Been there!

All the more reason to keep the dose low until you can master testing. And you will master it! I did. :smile: It takes practice, patience and about 2 weeks.

Take a look at Hank's SS. If you look back at the beginning, when I started keeping track, oh, about 9/25/14, you'll notice in the columns AMPS(AM pre shot) and PMPS(PM pre shot), they are blank or a few blanks. I felt the same way you do; couldn't get blood and didn't have time before leaving for work.

So when I got better or realized how important those are, I started doing them (pre shot tests). It takes me now less than 10 min to test, shoot and feed. Probably less than 5 min. I usually have to be at work at 6am or 7am.

Hang in there. Don't get discouraged. This is possible to do. It's just a matter of working out a routine and that will come.

Kimmie
 
Hello, and welcome from a fellow Canadian. You had noted on another post in the TR forum that Silver is 12 lbs. Is that his ideal weight, or is he a bit, um, fluffy? Typical males are around 10-11 lbs, but depends what breed they are. We have a formula for figuring out the initial dose and it's based on the ideal weight, or actual weight if kitty is underweight. If 12 lbs is Silver's ideal weight, then we'd suggest 1 unit or 1.25U given twice daily to start. I presume you are using the BD syringes with the 1/2 unit markings? That way you can eyeball those .25U doses.

It's great that you are starting to test but I want to stress along with the others the importance of testing before giving a shot. We had a new member who's kitty started yesterday morning at 25.9 (466) and he was down to 2.4 (43) right before the evening shot. Testing in the evening saved that cat's life. I know you said you are away 12 hours a day, but that does mean you are home 12 hours. If you could test before each shot and maybe before going to bed at night, as well as during the days when you are home, it'll give a good picture about how a dose is working. And yes, testing does become easier over time. I did a lot of crying the first week or so. :YMHUG:

In my example about the kitty who started high and ended low, he too was getting just one shot a day. Lantus likes the same dose morning and night and you can get some wonky numbers if you don't. I too recommend a lower dose twice a day. It's much easier to increase the insulin if it's not enough than to get it out if you've given too much.

You also asked about setbacks. And yes, feline diabetes is hard. Insulin is a hormone so it's a lot less predictable than giving medicines. That combined with a cat's unique ability to possibly go into remission and there are a lot of factors it's hard to control. Remember to take lots of deep breaths and try to relax. Kitties can tell when we are stressed which makes testing harder. Regulation does not happen instantly. You've made some very important steps by giving insulin and starting to test. You will get there.
 
MommaOfMuse said:
Maybe a couple pictures will help


This is my Cassanova when I adopted him last September, his previous owner was doing exactly what the vet told her to do...to the letter. The vet had him on wet and dry DM and poor Cassanova was tipping the scales at 37 lbs. and on 11 u of Lantus He was one sick kitty still after 2 years of treatment.


Cassanova 8 months after I adopted him and followed the protocol that I had learned here...Healthy at 17 lbs, he's a big cat bone structure wise. And insulin free.

Mel and The Fur Gang
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Ok I hear you. I am trying to listen to the forum AND to my vet and then to make my own judgement. My gut says the forum has more experience and already I am disagreeing with some of what the vet says. I find it difficult though as the vet is the one who is physically here who sees and has examined the cat. Can someone resend me the link to how to create the spreadsheet again and I will try and create one of my own.

So, I will test before insulin morning and evening. From tonight I will give him one unit and one unit again in the morning (this is down from the two he currently gets but splitting the two am only to one am and pm). As its the weekend, I can test throughout the day as well. Is it too soon to do another curve as I am just making the change tonight? My vet will be asking me soon if I am giving 2 and 2 and I am nervous about telling her I am ignoring her advice :-(
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Hello, and welcome from a fellow Canadian. You had noted on another post in the TR forum that Silver is 12 lbs. Is that his ideal weight, or is he a bit, um, fluffy? Typical males are around 10-11 lbs, but depends what breed they are. We have a formula for figuring out the initial dose and it's based on the ideal weight, or actual weight if kitty is underweight. If 12 lbs is Silver's ideal weight, then we'd suggest 1 unit or 1.25U given twice daily to start. I presume you are using the BD syringes with the 1/2 unit markings? That way you can eyeball those .25U doses.

It's great that you are starting to test but I want to stress along with the others the importance of testing before giving a shot. We had a new member who's kitty started yesterday morning at 25.9 (466) and he was down to 2.4 (43) right before the evening shot. Testing in the evening saved that cat's life. I know you said you are away 12 hours a day, but that does mean you are home 12 hours. If you could test before each shot and maybe before going to bed at night, as well as during the days when you are home, it'll give a good picture about how a dose is working. And yes, testing does become easier over time. I did a lot of crying the first week or so. :YMHUG:

In my example about the kitty who started high and ended low, he too was getting just one shot a day. Lantus likes the same dose morning and night and you can get some wonky numbers if you don't. I too recommend a lower dose twice a day. It's much easier to increase the insulin if it's not enough than to get it out if you've given too much.

You also asked about setbacks. And yes, feline diabetes is hard. Insulin is a hormone so it's a lot less predictable than giving medicines. That combined with a cat's unique ability to possibly go into remission and there are a lot of factors it's hard to control. Remember to take lots of deep breaths and try to relax. Kitties can tell when we are stressed which makes testing harder. Regulation does not happen instantly. You've made some very important steps by giving insulin and starting to test. You will get there.
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Silver WAS 17lb and very heavy. Now he is 12, he seems very fragile and thin to me but that could be because I am used to seeing him huge. He lost weight suddenly which is what prompted me to take him to the vet in the first place.
 
Silver is the silver tabby and his sister, Sasha is the calico. This was a year or two ago before he got sick. He is much thinner now. Sasha has now gained and is now very overweight - 16lb. I am struggling to bring her weight down and she only gets one can of FF a day along with a teaspoon of Purina DM in her am and pm wet dish.
 

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The day I got them home.

Proof Silver used to be able to jump on surfaces
 

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I LOVE kitty snuggle pictures! The baby pics are adorable too. Did the vet say what she thought Silver's ideal weight would be? Have you tried feeding Sasha only wet food? A lot of people here have other cats who have benefited with the switch to low carb wet or raw food only.

Here the link to Creating a Spreadsheet and putting it in your signature. You want the World version. You can enter the values on the World Tab and it'll automagically convert it to the US ones for you.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I LOVE kitty snuggle pictures! The baby pics are adorable too. Did the vet say what she thought Silver's ideal weight would be? Have you tried feeding Sasha only wet food? A lot of people here have other cats who have benefited with the switch to low carb wet or raw food only.

Here the link to Creating a Spreadsheet and putting it in your signature. You want the World version. You can enter the values on the World Tab and it'll automagically convert it to the US ones for you.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

No, I didn't ask the vet about ideal weight actually as we've been too busy focusing on getting him regulated. Sasha pretty much is getting wet food only - I just put in one teaspoon of dry food as she is always hungry and asking for more but not so much when she gets a bit of dry - its the Purina DM that I am feeding Silver so is low carb. She is a fatso now.
 
It doesnt have to be "your ignoring her advice" just simply you feel safer STARTING with a lower dose until you know how its effecting him. That you'd rather be safe than sorry since you are away from home for long periods of time, and youve read some horrible hypo stories that you would like to prevent. Theres nothing wrong with being cautious.
 
Ok, I think I have done this right, I have uploaded a blank SS sheet for Silver and added link to my signature. I will enter the data soon when I have it but I wanted to be sure I had the spreadsheet correctly.

I think I need help filling it in. Purple column is insulin dose given?
How do I switch it to show me the Canadian numbers not US?
 
I THINK you enter your info on the chart with the "world" tabbed at the top left.

Silver's Spreadsheet

US mg/dl World mmol/L

I think it THEN converts it to the US chart. Yes purple column is the amount of insulin you give.
 
dirtybirdsoaps said:
I THINK you enter your info on the chart with the "world" tabbed at the top left.

Silver's Spreadsheet

US mg/dl World mmol/L

I think it THEN converts it to the US chart. Yes purple column is the amount of insulin you give.
Click to expand...

Yes I picked the world spreadsheet but it still shows the numbers in the hundreds not double digits? I'll look again when I get home.
 
Yes I picked the world spreadsheet but it still shows the numbers in the hundreds not double digits? I'll look again when I get home.
Click to expand...

Yes, I converted your curve when I opened it in Excel and did not see him getting into the double digits.
 
Melanie and Smokey said:
Yes, I converted your curve when I opened it in Excel and did not see him getting into the double digits.
Click to expand...
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I was referring to the spreadsheet sample I just posted in my signature. I need it to show me the mml/L format bit I've figured out how to switch tabs. In my excel curve Silver was in double digits pre dose and at 28 12 hrs later.
 
KittyMom777 said:
Ok I hear you. I am trying to listen to the forum AND to my vet and then to make my own judgement. My gut says the forum has more experience and already I am disagreeing with some of what the vet says. I find it difficult though as the vet is the one who is physically here who sees and has examined the cat. Can someone resend me the link to how to create the spreadsheet again and I will try and create one of my own.

So, I will test before insulin morning and evening. From tonight I will give him one unit and one unit again in the morning (this is down from the two he currently gets but splitting the two am only to one am and pm). As its the weekend, I can test throughout the day as well. Is it too soon to do another curve as I am just making the change tonight? My vet will be asking me soon if I am giving 2 and 2 and I am nervous about telling her I am ignoring her advice :-(
Click to expand...
It's good to follow your gut. Don't assume your vet is awful or anything, but vets are like general practitioners for a whole bunch of species. It's hard for them to know everything about dogs, cats, rabbits, etc. Here is a suggestion for dealing with your vet. I loved my vet, but sometimes didn't agree with her. I would say "I'm not comfortable with that."

In your case, you could say you are uncomfortable doubling the dose when you are not there all day. Say you would rather stay low for a while longer. That you are going to try splitting the dose (1 unit am and pm) before you increase. Once the insulin is in your cat you can't get it out if it's too much, all you can do is try to treat the hypo.

So go slow. Being high for some more time really shouldn't make that much a difference. It's better to be high for a day than too low for an minute.

Good luck! (And testing does get easier!)
 
Thank you Debby. How long does it take for the insulin to start working. Like does it take an hour or less or more to get into the system?
 
Silver look lovely

You are getting some great advice. I started low and worked my way up to a dose that worked for my cat remi. I would agree that it is better to start low and slowly increase to keep your cat safe and to prevent missing the optimum dose.

The colours are an indicator of how well the blood glucose is in relation to the dose. It's not like you want to aim for the blues and greens straight away. Other members will advise better what they mean.

With regards getting blood out of Silver's ear. If you are having problems I find it is easier if you heat the ear beforehand. You can either rub it or if not try heating it with a rice sock (just warmed in the microwave for a few seconds). This helps to bring blood to the ear. I then hold either side of where I pricked and gently apply pressure so that the bead of blood forms and remi can't shake his head.

Best wishes
Sarah
 
KittyMom777 said:
What does the color coding mean on the spreadsheet?
Click to expand...


Its just for reference. I'm sure there is a sticky around here some where, but mainly its just to help you keep track, find your nadir (lowest point in the day), and notice flags. Best way to look at it is to look at my spreadsheet. Hidey's always in the green now (believe me it wasnt always that way if you scroll to the top) but when hes in the blue its a flag for me to keep an eye out. At first he was always red or black...WAYYYYYYY too high lol, just had to work at getting in the green :mrgreen:
 
Ok that's helpful. Currently Silver ispst definitely in the black pre shot but in blue after shot for most of the day. Will start recording in the spreadsheet tonight. Green is best in long term?
 
Yes, green is your goal but it may take some time. I know for a while it was a roller coaster with Hidey buttttttttt he's definitely worth it :-D
 
I'm currently using Accu check meter and strips. Meter is free when I buy strips but they are working out at $1 per strip. I'm in Canada so will Walmart Canada carry the Relion? Is this the best one?
 
Id assume Walmart would carry the relion but I am not certain. If not I dont know how close to the border you are you could always take a trip to the states lol, but that would depend on where you are. I use the relion micro, needs a tiny amount of blood and I think I get 100 strips for $35. I know walmart.com has them.
 
Walmart Canada does NOT carry the Relion. I periodically do cross border shopping to get my Relion strips. In Canada, your best bet if you don't live near the border is to look at Ebay for good prices on strips. The Accucheck is a good meter that several people use.

The colour coding relates to the US dg/ml. Below 100 (5.6) is green, 100 to 199(11.0) is blue, 200 to 299 (16.6) is yellow, 300 to 399 (22.2) is pink, 400 to 499 (27.7) is red, above that is black. The top of the World SS shows the colours and value ranges. "Normal range" for kitties blood glucose is 50 (2.8) to 120 (6.6). When they spend time in that range, their pancreas can start to heal. Below 50, it's time to break out the high carb food to prevent hypos. "Double digits" here means below 100.

Lantus typically starts working (or onset) around two hours after the injection. If you look at this New to the Group note on the Lantus TR forum, there is lots of information on Lantus, including what a typical curve looks like. Note that cats don't read the book and will often be atypical. :roll:
 
Thanks for all the great tips. I just got home and fed him. I know I should test feed then shoot but when I've been gone all day there's no way he'll let me test before feed. My other caf would be pestering for food too so it's just easier. He was 20.6 mmml/L so I gave one unit of insulin. Trying to stay up and awake to test in two hours.

My vet emailed me tonight after I told her what methyl b12 I ordered and she said I could use it (I was going to anyways even tho she previously said no). I think she's realising I'm not listening solely to her. Oops.
 
KittyMom777 said:
Thank you Debby. How long does it take for the insulin to start working. Like does it take an hour or less or more to get into the system?
Click to expand...
My Maggie has been gone for a long time and didn't use Lantus, so I'm not up to date on that. I hope someone else will post to explain how a depot insulin like Lantus works. But whatever the average, remember that ECID (every cat is different).

And it's great that your vet is coming around. Keep up the open communication.
 
This is what my vet emailed tonight re Methyl B12 I told her what I ordered.

Yes, that would be one of the products you could use - no sugar or toxic product.
We are giving her 250mcg injections.
Not sure what the oral absorption is of methylcobalamin relative to an injection. Typically oral dosing requires more. I can't find a dose for it in our drug books - all they say is tends not to be successful in dogs and cats.
Also not sure how you can 1/4 a capsule, I guess it depends on if it is a powder filled gelatin capsule, or a solid caplet.
Even at 1/4 cap that is 1250mcg.
I guess you will just have to go by what it says on the feline forum - if they have had success using an oral version.

Soooo forum folks how much should I give. Tonight I gave the whole 5000 mcg tablet. Presuming he will secrete any excess as its water soluble right?
 
Yes, it is water soluble and excreted via the kidneys. It is still possible to do too much of a good thing. And its wasted if it just flushes out in urine.

Maybe crush the tablet, toss it into some pate, stir well, then divide it into portions that'd be a bit more reasonable, such as 1/8 of the mix.

Or dissolve into a specific amount of water, shake well, and measure out from there.
 
It's a powder filled capsule hard to split. Surely only the excess will be excreted?

Anyone online now to check my spreadsheet. Am I safe to go to sleep or do I need to keep testing. First time dosing at night.

For some reason my last entry showed up on the U.S. tab but the first two didn't. Anyone advise?
 
I'd get a test just before you turn out the lights to go to bed. With Lantus, that +2 test you did is a good one as it can be an indicator of how the cycle will go. If it's about the same as the preshot value, the cycle will be a normal Lantus cycle. If it's quite a bit lower, it'll be a more active cycle and it's a good idea to get a later test. A higher +2 means a quiet cycle and you are usually good to sleep from there.

For the spreadsheet, if you go to the US tab and click on one of the columns where you've put a value in the World tab, like the units, there should be a formula referring to the World tab. If not, try starting the spreadsheet one row down and see if it's there. We do have a Tech forum and you can pose spreadsheet technical questions there.
 
I didn't see your post until after I'd gone to bed. Tested him when I woke up and it was high again so the one unit not enough at night. Will do two tonight.
 
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