A few kwik kitty kwestions

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ohiogal

ohiogal

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Hi everybody,

So, I'm testing Casey's BG and trying to figure out why it's still so high on 4 units of insulin twice daily.

I've cut out the Catsip, stopped letting her eat table scraps, am giving her turkey meat and beef jerky for treats...the BG is still not coming down much.

So I'm starting to suspect one of two things, or maybe both: The Lactulose I'm giving her, or the dry low-residue cat food she's eating for her constipation.

I cut back her Lactulose dose from 2 mls to 1.5 tonight, and I'll keep an eye on her glucose.

My question is, would be be harmful if I stopped leaving the dry food out? Maybe fed her 1/2 a can of wet FF, four times a day (and my other kitty Kennedy the same), but just remove the dry food altogether? Or is that too radical of a change?

Thanks for any advice! You guys are awesome!!
 
More likely the dry food. I would try to eliminate it. Every cat is different, but some cats here only need a few pieces of dry to make their numbers shoot up. If you do get on an all wet diet, I would consider lowering the dose. (easier to raise as needed than to get out of the cat once shot!). And lots of extra monitoring until you see what changes result from an all wet diet.
 
Hello and welcome !


I would think the high numbers are from to much insulin , 4 units seems pretty high in my opinion I would start at 1 unit and check bg as much as you can to see what insulin is doing and take casey off all dry and feed can low carb can food cat_pet_icon

does casey have any other health issues ??
 
calliecat an marty said:
Hello and welcome !


I would think the high numbers are from to much insulin , 4 units seems pretty high in my opinion I would start at 1 unit and check bg as much as you can to see what insulin is doing and take casey off all dry and feed can low carb can food cat_pet_icon

does casey have any other health issues ??
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HI Callie, thanks for the advice!

Actually Casey started out at 2 units twice a day in November of 2011. When her numbers didn't budge the vet upped her to 3 units, not we're at 4. I'm probably going to try to go all wet (Fancy Feast classic) this weekend and see what that does...
 
You could be looking at rebound.

http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Somogyi_rebound

We suggest starting at one unit. Start low and go slow, increasing as the numbers indicate. If you started at 2 units, it could have already been over his ideal dose.

I would reduce the dose if you change the diet. When we switched from dry to wet, Oliver's numbers went down 100 points overnight.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
You could be looking at rebound.
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Casey's numbers were off the charts to start with. Her beginning reading (before the insulin was started) was 690. Her readings after 2 weeks on 2 units were still 500+. So it doesn't look like what I'm dealing with is rebound. But thanks for the suggestion! If nothing else works maybe I can try one unit, all wet food, no Lactulose (Miralax instead - she has constipation), and see what happens...
 
Maybe you can consider those numbers were highly influenced by dry food? Starting over will give you much needed information. You can always adjust up as needed. We do advise raising by .50 if the numbers are over 300, by .25 if less. Rising by a whole unit is sometimes too much.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Maybe you can consider those numbers were highly influenced by dry food? Starting over will give you much needed information. You can always adjust up as needed. We do advise raising by .50 if the numbers are over 300, by .25 if less. Rising by a whole unit is sometimes too much.
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OK...so would you recommend that I give her 1 unit and see what happens? I can do that on Saturday, I'll be around so I can do a "curve". I just don't want to hurt her by suddenly switching her dosage. Would changing her dosage to 1 unit and putting her on the FF diet for a day be harmful? What do you guys think?
 
It's a judgement call. You could reduce the dose by half while changing the diet. Or go back to one unit with the diet and test for ketones.

It's the FD dilemma. If you give too much with the diet change and you get low numbers, you have to be ready to deal with that. If she needs more than the one unit, you want to make sure she is safe (ketone testing) while you figure it out, upping it as the numbers guide you.

Yes, I would definitely wait until the weekend when you can monitor.
 
I think that Saturday would be a great time to try something different.
Are you now testing, or can you get what you need by then, for ketones? Sorry if that's already been covered...

IF you can cut out the dry, and go with just low-carb canned and low-carb treats, and
IF you can be home to check for ketones and BG on Saturday,
then I would agree with to cutting back to 1u BID and test, test, test. Like every two hours from AMPS to PMPS, and if possible, once or twice overnight.

You aren't going to see immediate results most likely. It may day a couple days for her to adjust to the new lower dose. But if you can basically do a "start over", it might help for everything to make a lot more sense going forward.

Carl
 
ohiogal said:
I'm probably going to try to go all wet (Fancy Feast classic) this weekend and see what that does...
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I saw a huge change in Akbah when I put him on all wet. Good luck for the weekend. (Its Friday already here. Yay!)
 
akbahsMum said:
ohiogal said:
I'm probably going to try to go all wet (Fancy Feast classic) this weekend and see what that does...
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I saw a huge change in Akbah when I put him on all wet. Good luck for the weekend. (Its Friday already here. Yay!)
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Yay! How should I space the meals out then, if they both go on all wet? I don't want the poor kitties to go hungry overnight. And I work all day. I gave both of them about half a can of FF this morning...should I give them each a half can when I get home at about 5, and then another half can before I go to bed? What's the best wet-food feeding schedule??

Also, I don't have any of the ketone strips yet. Where can I get those? Does Meijer carry them? Where are they stocked?

Thanks for the info!
 
It's an ECID thing. Lots of cats do well with frequent small meals. Some get more consistent numbers with fewer. You'll need to experiment. I would start with the smaller more frequent option. Lots of us freeze the wet and leave it out to thaw so they can graze. I have a silicone cupcake pan; one can of FF fits perfectly in each space. Freeze, then dump into a freezer bag and use as needed. I also have an automatic feeder I love - the PetSafe 5. Not sure if that will help with multiple cats.

You should be able to find the ketone strips at any drug store. They are the same kind humans use. We have lots of tricks for urine collecting if you need them. :mrgreen:
 
I would also suggest completely switching to wet (provided they'll eat it). I just got an automated feeder and I love it. I set the timer so they get a small meal about 1:30 am. Mine were also used to grazing on dry all day. I use the feeder for 2 small meals during the work day, too. I just put a can in the fridge the day or night before so it's room temperature when the lid flips up. I have a two-compartment feeder, but a lot of people here use the 5-compartment one from PetSafe.
 
ohiogal said:
I don't want the poor kitties to go hungry overnight. And I work all day. I gave both of them about half a can of FF this morning...should I give them each a half can when I get home at about 5, and then another half can before I go to bed? What's the best wet-food feeding schedule??
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Yes go totally wet food but if you make the change straight from all dry to all wet, make sure you start over the weekend and monitor BG. You said you'd be doing a curve already, I see that in your earlier post but I still want to tell you anyway. When I say I saw a huge change in Akbah, I mean it could have been dangerous. He was on Humulin N, which I don't like much, its a medium to fast acting insulin, maybe your insulin is different (which insulin are you on again, maybe its in your signature which I can't see from this post-writing screen...) and ECID (every cat is different) but I found that as Akbah's insulin needs dropped, the high dose of Humulin dropped him right into low numbers, and I had to get out the honey and carry him through the hours till his BG started to rise again. Hypo's can be fatal. So seriously, when you start wet, be at home, test her till she's definitely past her nadir, and have this handy.

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15887

And Good on You for caring about your cat.
Oh and about when to feed,
I've been feeding 50g at 8:30 and 30g at 12:30, 50g again at 8:30pm and 30g at midnight. I put a few dessertspoons of warm water in with the food and mush it into gravy, that seems to fill them up more.
 
akbahsMum said:
I've been feeding 50g at 8:30 and 30g at 12:30, 50g again at 8:30pm and 30g at midnight. I put a few dessertspoons of warm water in with the food and mush it into gravy, that seems to fill them up more.
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Er - what does that translate to in "cans"? How many g's in a can?

So this is what I'm thinking:

Dose Casey as usual tonight, 4 units.

Before I go to bed, I'll give Casey and Kennedy each some wet food, then remove all the dry food.

Usually I get up sometime during the night to use the bathroom, and the cats see me up and want treats. I'll give Casey some deli turkey or chicken broth (found some Swanson All-Natural cooking stock that doesn't have anything in it but chicken).

When I get up around 7 a.m., I'll check Casey's BG levels and then give her 1 unit of insulin, feed her the wet food and start doing the 'curve' (checking her levels every 2 hours). I can try to check her ketones too I guess, but what happens if I can't catch her in mid-pee? I mean, how do people do this? Do you have to camp out by the litter box?

I'll keep her and Kennedy off the dry food for the weekend, and see how that goes.

Now, here's another question: What should I expect as far as numbers go, if this is working? Will they go down significantly, or budge much at all? Should I give her 1 unit in the PM no matter what the numbers do? And, how will I know if her ketone levels are high if I can't get her to pee on the stick? Are there symptoms?

Also, is any of this going to 'shock' her system? When all of this started the vet kept telling me NOT to change her feeding routine until her numbers were down, so what I'm doing basically goes against everything I've been told. But if her feeding routine is what's causing the high numbers, I don't see as there's much of a choice...

Thanks again for all the help! I and the kitty appreciate it!
 
I tend to be cautious. I wouldn't start the new diet at the same time as the old dose. Either go with one unit tonight with the all wet diet or tomorrow. Tomorrow is probably better because you can monitor?

The only way we could get a ketone test was to replace the litter with aquarium gravel and leave him in a room with that clean box. He couldn't stand to see a clean box, would go and the urine wouldn't be absorbed by the gravel. Other people can stalk the cat and when he is committed, swoop in and stick a ladle in the urine stream. What a fun adventure, right?

It's that ECID thing. Oliver crashed 100 points overnight. Other cats take a week to reach a final place where the food and insulin are giving you some consistent numbers. You can post here with your numbers as soon as you get them and we'll have ideas for you.

Here is some info on DKA (that is what you are monitoring for with the ketone strips) Note it is usually accompanied by loss of appetite and lethargy. http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Ketoacidosis We aren't expecting that but want to be safe with your kitty.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
I tend to be cautious. I wouldn't start the new diet at the same time as the old dose. Either go with one unit tonight with the all wet diet or tomorrow. Tomorrow is probably better because you can monitor?
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I can do that. :-) I'll pick up some ketone sticks on the way home from work tonight. Casey pees a lot, but small amounts, so I should have some time to practice before it's 'showtime'. She also tends to pee in the same place in the box, so I'm wondering if I can 'cheat' by sticking a bowl or something in there, and she'll pee right into it, and then taking the reading after she hops out of the box. She doesn't cover her stuff up.
 
Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Yes, scoop out a spot where she usually goes and put in a square of Saran wrap.
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Sneaky! I like it! Would a small plastic container also do the trick?

By the way, when I got home from work tonight a lot of the dry food was gone. I took Casey's BG and it was 500+. I'm really starting to suspect the dry food.

ETA: Just took her BG again and it was down to 265. Yay! *\0/* At least it's going in the right direction.

So - just so I'm clear - giving her just 1 unit tomorrow morning instead of 4 won't have any adverse affects? Like send her into shock or anything? I just don't want to have to rush her to the vet and have the vet get mad because I'm doing all of this without telling them...
 
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