9/5 Baby Update - Thoughts on shots needed

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D

D & Baby

Member Since 2011
I stayed up until 1, syringe fed a tiny bit of cat food and baby food and plenty of water. I left out everything under the sun, even dry, and he had no interest except in tuna juice. Up at 5:30 and thought I'd lost him, literally -- could not find him anywhere. But he had sneaked past the baby gate when we came down so I finally found him in my children's room.

I just fed him some watered down cat food and 21 mL of turkey baby food, again not wanting to overdo it if he's feeling nauseous. He showed interest in the food but didn't want to eat it himself. He is starting to NOT like the syringe feeding.

His numbers were:
11:10 pm - 488
12:22 - 401

6:00 am - 327
Fed 21 mL turkey baby food and 12 mL wet food (FF turkey) mixed with water
6:55 am - 337

I am going to try to take a short nap and I will try to feed him again closer to 8/9.

How early in the 12-hour cycle can I give him insulin? I need to try to get him shot closer to 7 -- impossible today, obviously. But if he had a shot at 10 last night, can I give it at 9 this morning, given his high numbers?

And once again, thanks for all your help. I appreciate it.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Can you syringe him cat food instead - it has more calories. Make sure its warm (not hot) and mix with a tiny bix of water to make it easier to syringe.

Showing interest in food and not eating is a sign of nausea in cats. Can you join the Yahoo Feline Assisted Feeding group? I can point you to where the file on nausea is and one to print out and take with you to your vet. We really need the lab work. I wonder if you are dealing with fatty liver but also something else causing the inappetance. There is also a really awesome article on help for the hesitant (indifferent) eater. But this is for a cat without food aversion/nausea though.

Did your vet do a test for pancreatitis?
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Good morning. If I understand correcty, you need to get from a 10PM shot last night to a 7AM shot tomorrow morning, right?

Cutting 1 hr out of each cycle for 3 cycles is obviously not ideal, but we also don't want to skip a shot with high BG and concern about possible DKA and HL.

How much will you be able to monitor today?
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

I tried cat food in the syringe, but it keeps getting stuck, even mixed with water. I either need a new syringe or I need to give it a whirl with the hand blender -- neither which I could do anything about at 6 in the morning. I can try later, though. And join the Yahoo group later.

I don't know exactly what the vet tested for. I'm pretty sure the office is closed today, though.

And, yes, ideally, I am giving a shot at 7 am tomorrow. I can push it out if I have to, but then I won't be able to monitor him afterwards. I would normally be leaving the house at 7, but I don't know what I'm going to do tomorrow. I absolutely can't stay home and neither can my husband. I may have to board Baby at the vet's office for the day. But I don't want them to put in a feeding tube, so...?
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

if you don't get an answer quickly, edit your first post here and put your question in the subject line. that always gets the attention of the right people!

we're cheering for you - by the way, do you want to be called D? or give your name?

i would think you can give the shot perhaps an hour early, but would like a more expert opinion on that.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

If you give the shot one hour early (and I too, would want a more experienced opinion on that), I would not give the shot one hour early three cycles in a row. I think you'd be just asking for trouble if you did that, especially with the inappetance and D not being home tomorrow to monitor. I'll see if I can track down Sienne or someone.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

DO NOT shoot 2 or more hours early. Shooting more than 1 hour early is hugely ill-advised especially with a cat that's not eating. An early shot functions like a dose increase. I'm trying to get some input on whether shooting even an hour early is a good idea.

Could you try calling your vet's office and seeing if there is a way to get a message to the vet? If meds are needed, the vet may be able to call a prescription in for you. Some vet's have an answering service and whoever is on-call will get back to you.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Check out Garlands video from her condo today - it has a link. Feeding tubes are an amazing thing and the cats adjust very well. But if you can get enough food in via syringe then a tube isn't required. A lot of people are not able to get enough food in. Addressing nausea if there is any will help.

If you are using a syringe with rubber inside then they can start sticking very easily and quickly. You can buy no ring syringes from pippens roost online. Or get a whole bunch of syringes from the vet so you can throw them out when they start sticking.

You can use the blender and put the food in prefilled syringes in the fridge for up to a couple days. You can warm up the syringes by putting them in a bowl/cup of hot water ten minutes before feeding. Saves on time the next day also. Blending is a good idea.

See your replies on yesterdays condo also.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

D --

If you're planning on making a pharmacy run for Ketostix, if you don't have any Pepsid AC (famotidine) in the house, could you pick that up also? A 1/4 of a 10 mg tablet twice a day may help if Baby has an acid stomach and that's contributing to nausea and not eating.

I don't think you're going to be able to get back on schedule easily. For now, given Baby's not eating, I think you'll be OK shooting an hour early. (Normally, you can shoot 30 min. early once a day.) I just don't want to put you in a position where Baby's numbers plummet and we're not able to help you manage the cycle with food if Baby isn't eating so you will need to be testing this cycle.

Also, did you see my post from yesterday about trying some HC food with gravy? Most cats love gravy. Maybe this will entice Baby to eat.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

If Baby loves the tuna juice, you might want to try Clam Juice to help make the food (and/or water) more appetizing. (Plus, it come in a jar, so you are not opening and draining tuna cans just for the juice :-D )
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Low sodium tuna juice is fine. There is probably too much salt in clam juice and as a result, will be dehydrating.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Analysis of salt is something I can help with:

Based on Noreen's electrolyte content page that I found off of Blinky's site, most cat foods have 0.4-0.6% sodium based on a try matter basis, with some up to 1%. To convert to mg, we multiply by the solids content of ~20% (Friskies is 78% MAX, but I'm being conservative), and the 5.5oz = 156grams

0.4-0.6% * 20% * 156 grams = 125-187mg sodium in a typical can

Ideally, you would find lower sodium clam juice. I found a list here
(Per 4 tablespoons (that's alot))
Bar Harbor (120mg)
Blue Crab Bay (120mg)
Bookbinder’s (135mg)
Look's Atlantic (120mg)
(all ~30mg per TB)

So, if you keep it to 1 or 2 TB, that should be in the noise of normal can-to-can variation. Even up to an extra 1/4 cup of one of these low-sodium varieties, especially if you've started with a reasonably low sodium food, should not push the cat over the edge.

On the other hand, looking arround, I've seen 70mg or more per TB (70*4 = 280), so you would need to be much more sparing with those.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Well, I won't be shooting an hour early because it's going to take me a while to get the cat to eat now -- so it may be in the 15 minutes early range.

I'm not sure what dose to give, again -- should I stick with 1 unit?

I don't have a full night's numbers, but here's what I've got:
11:10 pm - 488
12:22 - 401

6:00 am - 327
Fed 21 mL turkey baby food and 12 mL wet food (FF turkey) mixed with water
7:00 am - 337
9:00 am - 310

I'm going to blend some cat food and see what I can do food-wise right now.


Baby's litter mate had a feeding tube and it was a bad experience. I just don't want to go that route if I don't have to.
I called the vet and their only referral on days they are not open is the emergency clinic.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Thanks for the info on the phone call. It was worth a shot. (My vet does the same thing.)

Please stick with the 1.0u. FWIW, you do have a window with getting food into your cat. You can shoot and then feed. Lantus onset is usually within 2 hours. So you could feed after the shot -- although given Baby's food consumption, I can understand why you want to make sure there's some food on board.

Please plan on making a trip for Ketostix and Pepsid AC today. I know this has got to be stressful. I'm trying my best to not overwhelm you but still make sure you have the tools to keep Baby safe.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

D, you're doing great! Baby is lucky to have you taking care of him. This is very stressful to have your kitty not feeling well on top of everything else in your life. I hope he starts feeling better soon and eating better. Sending tons of healing vines your way.
Liz
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Thanks, everyone.

I just fed him 21 mL of Fancy Feast blended with water, which is equal to the consistency of the jarred baby food. So just as easy from a syringing standpoint. Baby is not loving it anymore, although he'e being pretty patient all things considered. I don't want to feed him too much and make him more nauseous so that he can't hold the food down.

I'm going to give him the shot now -- 15 minutes-ish earlier than last night, so that's a good thing. I'll see what I can do about getting to the pharmacy. The closest one is closed today, but if the ketostix are not behind the counter, it should be okay but I don't know. Assuming they are with the diabetic supplies, I think at this store (Fred Meyer, for any PNW'ers) they keep those things in the actual closed pharmacy section. I can go to Rite-Aid or something, it's just further away/longer away from the cat.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Oh, and I will be offline for a little while here pretty soon -- my husband is taking his computer to work and I have to get my old clunker warmed up.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

And thanks for the food info and the clam juice idea -- I'll see what they have at my grocery store.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Just sending Baby healing vines. I know you have your hands full.

On the tuna juice....please be careful what you use. If you are getting the juice out of a can of human tuna that says "tuna in spring water" please be sure it does not have any vegetable broth, soy, etc in it. The tuna juice in those cans has soy in it and it is toxic to cats. Sorry to give you another thing to worry about.

I'm hoping the pepcid AC will help.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Sending healing thoughts and prayers to both of you! Hang in there...
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

good job last night, and this morning. Hopefully you'll be able to get ketostix today. When I have gotten them they have been behind the counter, so I guess that must vary.

If you'll post some numbers today, it might be possible to shoot an hour or two early tonight, since you didn't this morning. It will depend on what her numbers do today.
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

hello d. hope things are going well.

were you able to get any ketostix and pepcid ac today?

were you able to get any tests done today? like libby mentioned, you might be able to shoot a little early tonight... depending on the numbers.

you have lots of eyes on this thread. we'll be watching for your response. i'll check back after kitty duty and the dinner hour. others will do the same.

reposting cheryl/winnie's list of tips and tricks to get kitty to eat:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=26965#p273790
Remember -- getting to the bottom of why he is not eating is most important. That way you can treat the underlying cause ( or symptoms of underlying cause) . It is always very important to get cats to eat, as they can quickly develop hepatic lipidosis from lack of food.

Here are some things you can do do entice your cat to eat:

-sometimes in order to get a cat to eat you even have to resort to dry it is more important that they eat. there are a couple low carb / grain free brands -- EVO and wellness core.

-making a buffet to give him choices
- heating food

sprinkle food with :
- forta flora -- a probiotic you can get at vets or online. is very smelly and cats love the taste of it.
- parm. cheese
- smashed crumbles of dry food
- bonito tuna flakes
- halo chicken treats -- crumble into dust over food -- my Wolfie loves this stuff.
- poor a little water from tuna in water over food ( I use low sodium/no sodium added as other kinds in water has veg. broth in it and I assume that means onions, which are toxic to cats-- check labels)
-powdered oregano. yep sounds weird . but some cats like it and it will entice them to eat.

other ideas of foods to offer your kitty to stim appy:
- trader joe tuna for cats
-baby food -- beechnut turkey and broth or chicken and broth. they have no onions or other additives. some babyfoods have onions . please read labels if you can't find beechnut.
- kentucky fried chicken
- deli turkey /chicken
- plain cooked ( boiled or baked ) chicken breast
-canned chicken for people (watch the label that their are no onions)
- chicken broth -- low sodium

If enticements don't work, you should consider:
-assist feeding ( syringe or make little meatballs and place in mouth)
-and/or talking to your vet about appetite stimulents ( mirtazapine or cyproheptidine)

and if those fail talking to your vet about feeding tubes
- Here is Dr. Lisa's link on feeding tubes : http://www.catinfo.org/?link=feedingtubes


hope you're able to find something that works...
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

Sorry to be so long in posting. My husband had the good computer and I had to deal with things that I did not get to yesterday when I was 100% focused on my kitty.

The pharmacy was closed, the ketostix were behind the counter. They didn't have low sodium clam juice. I bought the heart burn stuff but have not given it to him yet.

So far today, though, I think we've done much better on the eating front. He's eaten an entire can of FF, plus some more of another can, plus the baby food. He seems to have perked up a bit. A few minutes after his last feeding (all by syringe, btw), I was getting out some deli turkey and thought I'd offer him some and he not only was interested, but he ate two bites. And considering he wouldn't even lick anything earlier in the day, I think that is progress! Then he sat and washed himself, which he also has not been doing, so I think we might be turning a corner. I realize he needs to eat more, but I think by end of day, I will have gotten 2 entire cans of FF into him, which is 6 oz. And that doesn't count the earlier baby food.

So, here is where I'm at:
6:00 AM - 327
----21 mL turkey baby food
7:00 AM - 337
9:00 AM - 310
----21 mL FF
9:45 - shot
10:50 AM - 323
11:50 AM - 313
----21 mL FF
1:50 PM - 288
----25 mL FF
3:20 PM - 251
4:50 PM - 250
6:00 PM - 233
----25 mL FF + two bites deli turkey
7:30 PM - 210
8:45 PM - 186

I'd like to aim for 9:15 for his evening shot. That's half an hour prior to this morning's shot, but that puts me in a better place for tomorrow. I can go into work a little late, but not too late.

Thoughts?
 
Re: 9/5 Baby Update - Still syringe feeding

P.S. I should be able to create a spread sheet tomorrow.
 
That's great to hear that Baby is eating better. If you can give 1/4 of a 10 mg. tablet of the Pepsid AC about 30 min. before Baby eats, that might also help with the food issues.

How about increasing Baby's dose to 1.25u?
 
Okay -- I'll up it just slightly to 1.25. Or almost 1.25. The cylinder is only graduated in 1 unit increments so I have to eyeball it and I will be conservative on the eyeballing.

I did just have to syringe feed again. I gave him turkey but he just looked at it. But he still seems much happier. I'll stay up as late as I can tonight and get up as early as I can to make sure he has plenty of food in his system before I have to work in the morning. No puking since last night. And I do think that was because I should have followed his cues and stopped feeding when he appeared to be done, but I kept going because I was freaked out about him not eating enough.

Thanks again for all your help.
 
Are you planning on leaving Baby at the vet's office tomorrow?

There are a couple of considerations to follow up on:
  • Please give Baby a 1/4 tablet (2.5mg) of Pepsid 30 min. before each meal. If Baby is nauseated or has an upset stomach, this will help.
  • Please talk to your vet about the possibility of anti-nausea medication and an appetite stimulant (e.g., mirtazepine or cyproheptadine)
  • Please pick up Ketostix tomorrow and get a test in. If you're boarding Baby at the vet's office, perhaps they can test for you.
  • You might want to try some of the strategies for encouraging Baby to eat that Jill posted.
 
Hey D,

It sounds like you were able to get good food in him today, that's awesome! And his BG is coming down... Actually, that is scaring me just a little. Since we are so early in treatment, it's hard to know how Baby is going to respond next, and those dropping numbers suggest that either a bounce is wearing off, or the pancreas is kicking in and helping... Please get a reading as soon as you get up from what is hopefully a good night of sleep!

I know you are going straight in to work, so it's going to be tricky to make sure Baby doesn't fall off the bandwagon either low or high ohmygod_smile
 
WOOOOHOOOOOO What an awesome update!!!!!!!

Try and get a copy of the labwork.
Make sure its Pepcid AC 10mg tabs.
If you go with an appetite stimulant - vets often prescribe WAY WAY WAY Too much. Post on here before giving anything. And an antinausea medication I really feel would be very helpful for Baby. I am involved in the Feline Assisted Feeding forum and this is very common. That article Iinked to in a previous thread will explain it better than I can. Ondansetron or Delasetron would be best (metoclopromide/reglan doesn't work on cats unless stomach motility is an issue but it works on dogs and not all vets have read the latest studies).
 
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