9/30 Autumn amps-472,+3-510,+6-347,+9-397, pmps-331

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MommaOfMuse

MommaOfMuse

Member Since 2010
I'm bound and determined to figure out what this little girl is doing and why. I checked her at +7 last night when I got up to go pee and she was down to 53. As much as I love my vet this is one of the few times she is completely worthless to me as I'm the only one that uses a depot insulin at the clinic, try as I might to educate her she is still insistent on using Humilin N. :roll: So if I can't figure her out on my own I may have to call around to some of the other regional vets and see if I can find anyone that uses a decent insulin with cats. URRRGGGG Some days I truly hate living in middle of nowhere.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/24 Autumn amps-483, +2-577 curve day

good luck Mel. if anyone can figure it out, it's you!
 
Re: 9/24 Autumn amps-483, +2-577 curve day

Well called the other vet in town that I would even consider working with and so far I REALLY LIKE THEM! They are a little higher priced than my current vet, but not all that much, and do have their own onsite labs. As well as a board certified dentist for the critters. They support home testing, an all canned or raw diet, and use both Lantus and Vetsulin (okay not great but if they understand Lantus I can teach them Levemir). So I'm thinking if I can't figure Miss Autumn out on my own then I'm going to set her up a consult with one of their vets to see if we can find the answer. The biggest thing that I liked about them when I was talking to them is that they use and believe in pain management for cats! And they use Bupe instead of Metacam. Because at this point I'm thinking that Miss Autumn isn't needing insulin as much as I need to manage her pain that I have always thought she has had from day one. She doesn't walk right for a cat, doesn't use her tail for anything and will flinch or moan if you stroke too far down her spine. I think she has something hurting in her hips and spine region.

Mel, and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/24 Autumn amps-483, +2-577 curve day

poor autumn. that's great about this new vet. that's why i like my vet. they also believe in pain management and are very empathetic to the animals
 
Re: 9/24 Autumn amps-483, +2-577 curve day

I really need to video her walking because of course she doesn't walk the same at the vet's as she does at home because she's scared. But at home she walks with a hunched back like a raccoon. And she doesn't flag her tail when happy nor does she lash it when she's angry. Its like she has no feeling or control of it. I'm tired of that being just dismissed because of her age. Maxwell isn't that much younger and his tail functions normally.

I do love my current vet for the basics, she is freaking awesome but she readily admits she's out of her league when it comes to FD and that I know more than she does.

I hate experimenting with new vets with my kids lives but it can't hurt to at least schedule a consult and talk to this new one. If it turns out my kids can get better and more up to date care I'm more than willing to pay an extra $10/office call

As well as the fact that they are staffed 24/7 if I should ever need after hours emergency service and they do board special needs critters.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/24 Autumn amps-483, +2-577, +4-408 curve day

Lol EVERTHING is close to my house in this town. Ironically they are closer to the old house than the new one. But then again it only takes 30 minutes on foot to walk from one end of town to the other so maybe 5 minutes from my house to the new clinic

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/24 Autumn amps-483, +2-577, +4-408,+6-315 curve day

Kinda figured I was going to be looking at a clearing bounce today and I'm right but it still is showing me how fast she is dropping. She's dropping a good 100pts every 2 hours that's fast for a Lev kitty and because I was doing a curve I wanted to stay with exactly the same flavor of food so carb content is not a factor, but of course since its Wednesday the selection of flavors that I have enough of in the house to keep all the troops on the same thing all is Friskies Mixed Grill which is a little on the high side at 11% ish and has beef in it which I already know tends to keep her up a little more than non-beef containing foods. So that's more than likely why she isn't free falling faster.

Mel, and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99

Well she continued to straight line it down last night as well and by +3 (when she should have been rising and had eaten) she was at 278 and probably went lower last night as she was a supreme cuddle bug in bed and handing out kisses this morning before either Jon or I were allowed out of bed, so she is now on the tiniest dose I can measure a drop. If she tanks again on me or starts this drop 100 pts every 2 hours again, she going off and her OTJ trial will begin.

Also Jon and I discussed at length the possibility of trying out this new vet I found yesterday as I was highly impressed with the phone interview and after reading over their website I'm equally impressed with their vet's training. 2 of the 3 vets graduated with honors from Cornell and the other from Kansas State both excellent schools and one has a specialty in Feline Medicine. Plus it is an all female clinic which for my dog and Mariposa is purrfect since neither care at all for any man other than daddy and Mari still isn't sure about even daddy yet, he's fine on weekends and after he showers when he gets home from work, but if he still smells like roofing she wants no part of him. But who can blame her after her start in life and being shoved first in a dumpster and then 150 mile round trip in a glove box of a roofing truck. :o

So next week I'm probably setting up at least the initial Meet and Greet appointment with them for Autumn because I'm not too sure I want my current vet to finish the job, now that I've learned the only pain meds they have for cats is Metacam, Autumn maybe old but she is nowhere close to end of life and I'm not willing to risk her health with a drug I know has a Black Box warning on it for use in cats...Nope, not happening. I do plan on retaining my current vet at least for now for the basics, spays, neuters, vaxs, bumps and bruises etc but for the special needs kids I think we will be looking elsewhere.

Mel, and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99

aww, sweet autumn. i have a cat, larrys lady, who is about 15. she doesnt use her tail either/well, not much, and i hadnt thot about it til u mentioned it! she walks strange. i thot it was just arthritis at her age. hmmm something to think about. good luck autumn! u have the best mama!
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99

I think it is probably arthritis for Autumn as well if not more trauma from the shooting, as I have had other ancient kitties that kind of stop using their tails as they got older but not like this. Most of the oldtimers would still lash and snap theirs when angry, or curl it around them when sleeping, and at least squawk if you sat on it...not Autumn. I've actually realized to my horror a couple of times that I was standing on the tip of hers while preparing food and have sat on it numerous of times without her saying a word.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99

oh no! yea ur right, my meezy does let me know if i step on it! and she can curl it some. poor autumn :(
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99, +6-346...

Hey, at least it wasn't a drop to 24 this time. :roll:
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99, +6-346...

oh, wow. now, that does look like larry! evn a little worse. i dont follow her closely...but he went from 198, to a 427 in abt 24 hrs, day b4 yesterday, and many other weird things. good luck to them both!
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99, +6-346...

Yeah but now has me wondering what she did overnight and how far she fell. If that 99 this morning was her rising since she was still dropping at +3 or should say started dropping again at +3 then where the heck did her BGs go last night?

Guess I'm going to just have to suck it up this weekend when I have time to stalk her to the litter boxes for ketone checks and just stop all insulin for 6 cycles let her clear her system and if needed start back at it again. Figures you know watch both will now give up the stickers because I just restocked insulin for the winter. On the upside she does still have an active script for N if I need to just go with an 'in and out' insulin until I can switch her yet again. This is getting down right silly, oh why can't she just walk off like every other cat I've walked off...Oh no not Autumn she has to do it with flair.

Oh Pam if you want to see a rainbow filled spreadsheet go look at Autumn's since her dental and end of antibiotics she's all over the road. I know what she's doing I just can't catch her before she dives and bounces again. I'd feel better about starting her OTJ trial if we could do it BEFORE the bounce sets in.

Mel, and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99, +6-346, pmps-315

in response to mel's PM...

hi mel. i've been watching autumn on and off for awhile now. I see the possibility of two things going on. i think one has already been mentioned:

  • one possibility is her dives are creating bounces that take longer to clear than usual. just when we thought a bounce will clear in 3 days, along came a kitty who taught us not only the true meaning of ECID, but also let us know that we certainly don't know as much as we think we do! :mrgreen:

    See Tucker's Spreadsheet. it took 9 cycles for Tucker to stop bouncing and return to greens! :shock:

    It took us a couple days to figure out what was going on. at that point we suggested withholding insulin. as the days went on, Tucker did get into some contraband, but the HC cleared quickly and Tucker returned to normal numbers.

    it's extremely hard to sit on your hands when seeing higher than normal numbers (i was never good at it), but taking forever to clear a bounce *might* be what you're seeing. "if" it is happening, continuing with insulin is simply creating a vicious circle of highs and lows.
  • i also see the possibility of something brewing in autumn's body which has yet developed into a full blown health/medical issue... something that is yet to be discovered. i've read some of your comments over the past few weeks. it could have been me writing them about alex over this past year. her BG patterns and reduction in insulin requirements didn't make sense and in some cases were similar to autumn's. i tried everything i could think of since the beginning of the year because nothing made sense. i couldn't escape the thoughts of "something's wrong. something's off"... but nothing (blood work, exams) pointed to there being anything wrong... until it was quite obvious exactly what was wrong.

    i don't want to scare you and i'm NOT suggesting autumn has or may have cancer in her future like alex did. all i'm suggesting is there might be something going on with her body. something we have yet to find out... something brewing. it could be anything.

    if this is the case... i wish i had the perfect answer to help you with her, but i don't. all i can suggest is doing what i did... i followed my gut and i let alex lead the way. all "the rules" went out the window. we shot late. we shot early. we skipped shots. we shot at odd intervals. check out her spreadsheet. i tried to document this part of her journey well from about march 2014 on. actually, hindsight is always the best sight. i think her troubles may have begun last year. the first entry on jan 1st, 2014 says, "Happy to have Alex with us as the New Year begins. She was so sick the last 6 weeks. Not sure she's over the hump yet, but I never thought she'd see 2014!"

at this point all i can suggest is to remain flexible. eventually it'll all make sense...
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99, +6-346, pmps-315

Thanks Jill

As I mentioned in my pm to you and Libby. I've had several things running around in my head about Miss Autumn. Brewing health problems have crossed it thus the interviewing with a different vet for a second opinion because there are several issues since day one with her that are getting brushed aside and I have no back history on her except what I've pieced together because of thing that have come up..i.e. the BBs surfacing as she got healthier. The lack of tail usage and the rounded back when walking and two years of her mouth smelling like a sewer farm despite her supposedly having dentals done. This last one finally resolved the stench from her mouth.

I do think I am have a vicious cycle going where the insulin is just driving it, but yeah I'm not good at sitting on my hands with those high numbers but I just might have to invest in handcuffs and do it until these swings stop. Thankfully Lev is a little more flexible than Lantus so I guess we just go with the flow and let her tell me what music we are going to dance to next. This weekend I pretty much can stalk her to the litter box since DH will be home to help with the rest of the gang so that will give me a little more freedom to get ketone checks in on her which while she is easy to stick a strip in under when I catch her in a box the problem usually lays in that there are 16 litter boxes here so I literally have to stalk her whenever she gets up to go anywhere. I know I can always get a first in the morning as she and I seem to share the same potty break and the litter box is right next to the toilet that one is easy peasy additional ones can be tough to catch.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/25 Autumn amps-99, +6-346, pmps-315

it's good to know you'll be testing for ketones regularly.
good luck!


Edited to add:
Contrary to what we used to think... Lantus is a whole lot more flexible than we thought. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise. :mrgreen:
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354

Okay I think we have a game plan in place at least for now for Miss Autumn. Spoke to the new vet yesterday and she was nice enough to look over Autumn's spreadsheet and my copy of her recent cbc without me bringing her in just yet and here's her thoughts and plan of action. I have a new bottle of clinamyician and I'm to start her back on it this morning (already done) and keep her on it for a full two weeks just to hopefully rule out any infection that isn't showing on the labs. Handcuff myself and take her off insulin altogether starting Saturday morning and just let her be test a few times a day if she goes over 500 tap her down with R (picking that up tonight). But otherwise just let her system clear the Lev. Once we can get the vicious cycle stopped and finished this round of abs then she wants to see her at the clinic to give her a complete once over from nose to tail. If she still needs insulin at that point we'll start her back with the Lev but if the dive and bounce starts up again then we'll start working on a further game plan, which could include, a non 12/12 shooting schedule, or a sliding scale with the Lev or a complete insulin switch.

It was nice to hear that in her opinion if Autumn would just stop the trampoline act that I have one exceptionally healthy kitty for her age. And that she like myself is wondering if its pain that is causing her to bounce like a ball now. That once we get her leveled out on the blood sugar even if that is high and flat we look for an underlying condition that is causing the high BGs rather than a faulty pancreas. In her words "She was well controlled before the surgery and now she's not, something has changed and we need to find it."

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354

Paws crossed that this plan works and questions are answered about dear Autumn. Alska is missing his gal!
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210

Finally a little ray of sunshine...fingers crossed it continues.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354

responding to your PM:

Like Jill, I also tried to document what I was doing with KK, including what was changing with his personality or just those feelings I had from time to time. You might want to read through his SS too, at least the last couple of months. I did know what was wrong with him (liver cancer), but the bottom line was that I had to figure out how to dose him with whatever was going on. He went through a couple of stretches with no insulin for a few days, but overall he did need it so I had to find a way to give it.

In addition to what Jill wrote, I also experimented with food. Disclosure - KK ate both dry food and wet, and he ate unbelieveable amounts of food, so it's kind of hard to draw firm conclusions from food experiments. At one point I noticed that he did better on a slightly higher carb wet food than he did on the very low carb foods. He was not carb sensitive at all (it took a lot of food to bring his numbers up), so that may or may not be true for cats without his medical issues. If Autumn does wind up needing insulin, you could try some different foods and document what you see. I would give each change at least a few days before switching again. I'm not talking about 11-12% food like I used with KK (as I mentioned, he was NOT carb sensitive and most of his food ran right through him). Even 6-8% might make a difference, who knows? We had one cat here several years ago who was bouncing all around on almost no insulin with EVO, then flattened out beautifully just from a change to 3-4% Wellness. That little bit of extra carbs might be enough to make the dives less steep, which might make the bounces less harsh.

As I said before, though, I do think it's worthwhile to try stopping insulin for a few days. Maybe rather than saying now that you'll stop on Saturday, just wait until next time she is blue or green at preshot and stop then. If she is going to be able to do it without insulin, it should be easier for her to maintain numbers that are already good than it would be to bring down a high number without insulin. Then switch to "OTJ Trial" mode and try feeding multiple small meals frequently for a while to help baby her pancreas along. Good luck!
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210

Thanks Ladies looks like we all are kind of on the same page when it comes to Autumn in that least stopping her insulin for a short period might be the best option to see what she does or doesn't need in that department.

She already gets about the best I can do with mini meals, as everyone here eats 4 times a day at amps, +6, pmps & +3 ish in the evening slightly later on weekends. Because there are 16 here that if one eats all want fed, so anymore often that every 6 hours and my life would revolve around feeding cats and doing kitty dishes. And with the drooler in the house free-feeding is right out, cats would starve and the dog would be as big as the house which is actually ironic because he's a pita to get him to eat his own food. :roll:

Food changes also could prove problematic, since I'm in the middle of nowhere...The nearest thing I have to a Petsmart is 200 miles away. And again I'm feeding 16 plus a 127 lbs drooler. So the choices on food comes down to Friskies, 9-lives, Special Kitty and a couple other store house brand pates which would be questionable in carb content. Then I have to get the entire gang to actually eat it. Although if I remember correctly 9-lives is slightly lower in carbs than Friskies and Autumn is one of them here that will actually eat it.

As far as personality changes in her...Actually everything since the last dental is much better now but her numbers stink. Yesterday I found her laying belly up on the dining room table sunning herself and fast asleep.. She has never jumped on anything since I've had her and the only way she could have gotten there is to jump and at a fairly good height, now she will climb up on stuff and take small hops like from the arm of the couch to the back of the couch or hop into the window sill but those are only about 18 inches off the floor. Also she has never shown any interest in toys before, which really isn't that unusual for an ex-barn/farm cat. They just aren't usually into toys because they've hunted the real deal. But again since the dental I'm catching her sort of playing with things, like she'll rub her far on this long catnip kicker or she'll bat at a jingle ball. So something is changing and more than just her numbers.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179

Woohoo Autumn found her bikini again...Swan Dive!

Mel, and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179

yayyy Autumn and Mel great you found a vet that sounds like they understand this disease. that's great.
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179, pmps-101

Come on baby girl hold this for mama. No bounce please just nice and easy surf please pretty please.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179, pmps-101

autumn hold those numbers for your mama bean please.
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179, pmps-101

Thought I'd give everyone a good giggle since I just restocked their food for the week. Yes folks this is ONE WEEK'S WORTH!

There are 3 rows of 4 cans per stack.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 

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Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179, pmps-101

yep. looks like my house Mel. same thing. we spend a fortune on cat food & litter
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179, pmps-101

yep. looks like my house Mel. same thing. we spend a fortune on cat food & litter
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179, pmps-101, +3-94

Well, so here we are on a Friday night, both at home because Miss Autumn has decided to go on a picnic in the green grass. With fresh antibiotics aboard and no insulin. Can't think of a better way to start the weekend. :roll: ohmygod_smile :lol: But hey at least last for our anniversary we got WiFi and Cable!

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179, pmps-101, +3-94

don't u just love wifi and cable ?? hope autumn doesn't keep you up all night.
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn amps-354, +6-210, +9-179, pmps-101, +3-94

Lol I'm loving this right now. She's being such a good girl and giving me exactly what I need to stop both her trampoline act and her insulin at the best possible time this weekend she could pull it.

I have as long as I need to just keep her in the sweet spot between 50-80..because I can sleep until The Overlords DEMAND breakfast! Not shooting anyone in the house. Lol

And can go back to bed after I feed them and walk the dog. flip_cat
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn pmps-101, +3-94,+4-87,+5-68,+5.5-63,+6-68, +

Glad Autumn's numbers are better. And extra leaba time as well! :-D
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn pmps-101, +3-94,+4-87,+5-68,+5.5-63,+6-68, +

looks great Mel. :RAHCAT :RAHCAT
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn pmps-101, +3-94,+4-87,+5-68,+5.5-63,+6-68, +

checked your SS - hopefully Autumn will keep coming down today so you can try no insulin.

Question - did Autumn have post-dental x-rays? We've seen it before where they missed a tiny fragment of tooth during an extraction. Did new x-rays, went back in to get the last shard, and kitty's numbers snapped back into place. Just a thought.
 
Re: 9/29 Autumn amps-517

Well it was another wild ride with Miss Autumn over the weekend. So trying something completely different with her for now. Since I have a good bottle of N in the fridge and Levemir seems to be what is causing the swings at the moment. I can't stand seeing her in those sky high numbers, and I'm lousy at being able to just leave her there until the Lev clears her system. So, I opted to use the N this morning to yank her down and will see if I can use it to just chase numbers until we can get in and see the nice new lady vetty bean. If that means shooting T.I.D for awhile then so be it. Whatever it takes to make my girl happy and comfy.

Although I must say that she isn't behaving like she normally does in high numbers, usually when sky high she is a nightmare to live with and clearly doesn't feel well. But so far if the meter wasn't telling me that she was shooting for the moon I couldn't tell by her demeanor. She's cuddly, purring, grooming and even playing a tiny bit which is about all Autumn ever plays. Catnip interests her but other toys not so much, however, the cricket that got in the house didn't stand a chance with Autumn on duty. Living things like crickets, beetles and flies get her attention and she will stalk them but toys are just silly as far as she's concerned she is above that silliness.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/26 Autumn pmps-101, +3-94,+4-87,+5-68,+5.5-63,+6-68, +

Libby and Lucy said:
Question - did Autumn have post-dental x-rays? We've seen it before where they missed a tiny fragment of tooth during an extraction. Did new x-rays, went back in to get the last shard, and kitty's numbers snapped back into place. Just a thought.
Click to expand...
the answer to libby's question is huge. if she did not have post dental x-rays after her dental/extractions i'd be running to the nearest vet who has the necessary equipment (not all do). we've seen what libby has described often enough in Lantus TR to routinely suggest post-dental x-rays after extractions. having post-dental x-rays done is right up there at the top of the list when having problems after extractions. seeing as though you weren't having blood sugar control problems before the last dental... imho, it's definitely worth looking into.

however, if autumn did have post-dental x-rays... we can feel comfortable crossing post-dental trauma off a list of probable suspects.
 
Re: 9/29 Autumn amps-517,+3-334,+4-168

Jill & Libby

To answer the question NO she did not, nor for the love of everything Holy can I get my current vet to do it (she has the equipment) which is the exact reason Miss Autumn has an appointment on Wednesday at 9:30 a.m. with a different vet clinic that not only has the equipment but a board certified dentist and a Cornell grad with a specialty in feline medicine. (Didn't realize until recently that the practice had changed hands for the better).

I do think we still have mouth issues, as well as I think she has some just good old fashioned aches and pains that comes from being a hard working farm girl most of her life and now being close to 18, that she could probably stand a little pain management for as well. Heck I'm not nearly as old as Autumn is if you do the conversion of cat to human years and I've got lots of aches and pains that come with aging so why wouldn't she? Not like she spent her youth and young adult days living in a warm house being just a pampered pet, she worked for her living keeping the farm vermin free.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/29 Autumn amps-517,+3-334,+4-168,+6-126

Well at least the N has her in pretty respectable numbers for now until I can get her to her possible new doctor. Although I'm expecting her to fly up again after the N wears off so just going to have to chase numbers for awhile until I can get her figured out health wise and rule out anything other than diabetes that is complicating the problem.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/29 Autumn amps-517,+3-334,+4-168,+6-126

cool food pic! larry has his paws crossed, literally. only cat ive ever seen lay with front paws crossed. cute!
 
Re: 9/29 Autumn amps-517,+3-334,+4-168,+6-126

hi Mel.
hope this new vet is good and can help you with Autumn
(although you'll prob teach them )
 
Re: 9/30 Autumn amps-472

At least that's better than where she started out yesterday. It does look like with an "in and out" insulin like N (icky) I can regain some control again with T.I.D dosing, which I would love to avoid if possible, but at least its an option.

I put her back on her Lev this morning because if possible and she does truly need insulin it would be my preference but I wanted a full 24 hour run on the N to show the new that it just doesn't have enough duration for her to be shot 12/12 with it. Now BCP PZI could be an entirely different animal for her, or even Prozinc (especially Prozinc because its a U40 so easier to microdose). But we shall see what the nice Dr. Vicky has to say tomorrow morning.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 9/30 Autumn amps-472

autumn has a yucky number today too! good luck autumn and momma mel. larry said hi. ~O)
 
We end the day much better than we started and tomorrow is a new day, a new vet, a new month and a new condo :-D

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
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