9/29 Gracie PMPS 365 +2 324 +4 328 +5.5 305

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Marje and Gracie

Marje and Gracie

Member Since 2010
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Yesterday: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26178

Recap:
AMPS: 281
+2: 158
+2.5: 143
+3.5: 106
+4: 89
+4.5: 87
+5.5: 112
+7: 112
+10: 160
PMPS: 393
+3: 295
+5: 277

Good Morning!!! We're moving slow this morning in Gracie's house. I stayed up late to watch her even though she bounced because she dropped 100 between PMPS and +3. Was hoping for a good surfin night but she stalled and this morning....well, I've never had a red number with her. Could this be indicative of anything other than a bounce? This morning is her 9th cycle...I don't understand why she would bounce this high and am worried. If she needed a dosecrease would we just be seeing a flat line of high numbers and no low ones? If she keeps bouncing with numbers in the blue/green, then do you keep the dose the same and then she should regulate? Last question, if her bounces start going higher but the low spots are in the yellows, then would it be time for a dosecrease? I'm bummed this morning but that could be a function of exhaustion and sadness for Ella and Edward (as we all are):sad: :sad: Thank you!!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 DOSE ? pls

hi Marjorie! I think that what you are seeing this morning is just a bounce - unfortunately it's a red one. Sometimes this is just what happens - they bounce hard. Mannie has done this to me many times before, without any logical reason as to why it's so high. It will clear. For now I'd get a +2, and that should give you an idea of where she is headed today.

I will let the dosing experts answer your dosing question. Hopefully someone will be along shortly.

I too am bummed. It's just so sad about Stu. There is a tribute started on the community forum, should you care to contribute. The link is in my post, and Spots.

I hope you and Gracie have a good day today.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 DOSE ? pls

If the reds persisted, it could be indicative of other things, but just one number is nothing to worry about.*
A cycle or two of flat yellow numbers can mean that some action is to follow. Flat pinks usually indicates a need for more insulin.
We follow the Protocol with increasing as well as decreasing the dose. That kinda answers both your other questions.

Hopefully, she will not linger on the ugly red floor for long....

+a series of reds in quite a few cycles and higher numbers can indicate an inflammation or infection is going on. When Shadow does this, I take him in for blood work to see if anything shows a hint of infection. I did a second dental in this year due to elevated numbers.
One number, especially after a low the previous day is most usually a bounce in reaction to the lows. It is usually just a blip and nothing to worry about. Some4 do ketone testing when the number are in red just to be sure.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 DOSE ? pls

I think we are all feeling that way today, Marjorie. Dealing with FD is often a test of our patience. Trying to understand these bounce just drives you up the wall. Hang in there.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415

Thanks Michelle, Pat, and Ann. I appreciate the comfort and guidance and knowing we are all in this together :smile: . I really thought last night that she was coming off the bounce and got up several times to check on her; I didn't test her as every time she responded normally and cooed/purred at me giving me headbutts. I had already checked her ketones this morning but hadn't had a chance to post...it was negative. I usually check every day but we didn't see her in the LB yesterday in time to slip the tray under her precious little bottom :smile:

So we'll see what today brings. The first thing I did when I saw that number was go back and look at some of your spreadsheets and also Binks and Achilles. Gave me hope that just one red number was not as alarming as I feel :smile:

Thanks, Michelle...I'll go to the community from your link.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415

marjorie i feel so very strongly that this is just liver reaction...just a gut feeling i have and not anything more serious. we think we know her lowest point during her green day but there could have been a slightly lower # that was'nt seen. please try not to worry. i know it's hard....but i just have a very strong feeling or i would'nt say anything. i think you will come off this roller coaster today.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415

Thank you Lori....it's a low day for me.... I think I am just so darn tired and I have not been out of the house since last Friday. I want her numbers to come down today but if they don't, we will probably go out for lunch and some FUN!! However, having said that, I'd have more fun staying home watching her numbers in green :lol: :lol:
It is just so puzzling to me that the liver would bounce THIS hard when her numbers yesterday didn't go that low. I know I didn't test every single hour esp after her number started going up so I don't know how low she got but 415!!

Hope Tom is doing better and back to normal and you are chillin'. Thanks for the encouragement....I need it today!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415

Not to worry, she will come down--Remember to look at the whole cat--
Think of how much Gracie has improved since you came. And how she was 87 yesterday!! These are GOOD things--Look at the whole cat, not just the numbers
As Sienne once told me, It's only one number...Dont let it upset you!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415

oh stupie me...i was lookin at the chart as it stands and thought (how could i EVEN think this) that you only got in 2 tests. oye vey!
well, still feeling positive...
i wish we could always know where the 'crazy' numbers come from. tom is over his series of 'crazy' but they pass. wish i could just give you and gracie a hug and we could all chill together poolside.
it will be ok marjorie.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262

Thanks, Roni and Lori....at least she's coming down a bit so I feel a little better. What a roller coaster!!! She felt so good yesterday and she is more subdued
today...she seems so very sensitive to her numbers. But I will try to remember that I'm looking for trends and not just one number.

I have an appt at the eye doctor so that will get me out a bit and DH will be here. But hey, Lori...come on over girl...it's a fast drive; we've got lots of beer and coconut rum and wine...and nonalcoholic things too but DH makes the most incredible strawberry daiquiri EVER! Pool water still warm...it's a glorious day in AZ.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262

That is a big drip for +2, over 150 points. Often these early fast drops are what add to the big bounces, not just low numbers. Maybe you should talk to Sienne or Libby about how to start controlling the drops with food.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262

oh don't i wish it were a 20 minute drive!!!!
that's more than a bit. that's a nice dip.
i think there should be a serious discussion about this dose, perhaps it premature, it is causing mucho bouncing. a discussion with eyes on the chart. this dose almost requires help in not going too low. is that good?
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +3 207 +4 120

Looks like Gracie wants to clear her bounce and go for a green day. We're still feeding 6% right now. Given the fast drop, we'll recheck in 30 unless someone recommends rechecking in 15. Thanks!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +3 207 +4 120

Thanks, Ann....I will ask them about that. We've been trying to feed her to control the drops. For instance, this morning, with the AMPS, I gave her 2 tsp 6% and as her number has dropped, we've given 6%. Yesterday when she started dropping, I gave her 10% to try and slow it down and I wonder if I could have gotten her to surf longer if I had done 6%. It is a question I've had so I'll post it. Thank you. Hugs to the most lovely Tess.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +3 207 +4 120 Need help pls

Libby or Sienne: Can you pls help me with these huge drops? Tess said there might be a better way to keep them from dropping down and popping up so radically with food control. I enter all the food on my SS so you can see how much, when, and what %. Please let me know if there is a better way to do this to get her more regulated and less drastic ups and downs...which aren't good for her are they? Thank you!!!!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +3 207 +4 120 Need help pls

Obviously....and it concerns me!!

Help question posted prior to these so please look back through condo to see question I need help with. Thanks.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +3 207 +4 120 Need help pls

I think Mannie has done a bit of curve-feeding too to keep the surfboard from sinking. I'd say he owes you a lesson after teaching you to dive.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +3 207 +4 120 Need help pls

When a kitty shows that they like to drop early in the cycle, we have found that feeding a little at +1, +2 and +3 can help slow the large drops. You fed a little at +2 and again at again after the drop at +4.
Now....you see how Gracie wants to leave that bounce and get back down to the nice numbers. that is a good thing! :razz:

Had you been a mind reader when you saw that red and knew in your mind that she would be blue by +4, you might have fed at +1, +2 AND +3. BUT, you and I are not mind readers...LOL... This is good data to have! Hindsight is always 20/20. Who knew how long she would stay n the red, right? Good for YOU that you tested at +4 and added to the other tests this morning, you have very sound data on her SS. This shows the dose is working and she is doing great!

So with the data you have collected today, you will be prepared to watch how she drops in the beginning of all her cycles.
By feeding her mini meals in the first few hours drops can be slowed a bit. It looks to me that she drops in the
AM cycle a lot faster than she does at night, no?
Mini meals at preshot time, +1, +2 and +3 can help spread the food spike or rise over the first few hours. That will give you things to do too... ;-) It is a matter of trial and error as to how much you feed and if you need to use LC or something higher. IMHO, I would start out tomorrow feeding her a little bit at prehot, and then again at +1, +2 and +3 to get ahead of her drops. As her numbers get better in the PM cycle, you might want to try it then too.

You may test her again and see if she is going lower or if that food you gave her at +4 is keeping her steady. She is doing great today in my opinion. Getting back to those healing numbers is a good sign. :razz: Make sense?
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +3 207 +4 120 Need help pls

Hi Marjorie -

oh my - Mannie has a reputation! And yes I do feed early in the cycle to manipulate the curve - as Mannie is a huge diver. I am in a rush this morning, but promise you I will get back to you on what and how I feed. Sienne does this as well.

For now - I would test every thirty minutes to see where Gracie is taking this. she is in no danger right now - so don't worry, but you may want to slow down the dive. If she still is dropping fast then up the carb content of what you are feeding her. Maybe to 10%?. similar to what you did the other day when she went so low.

I hope this helps, sorry I can't go into detail right now - have an appt. at least this will bump you up in line so that others can help too.

ah I see pat is out there ! YAY!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +3 207 +4 120 +4.5 114 help pls

Do you need help Marjorie?
I see the question in your header....that is a good number....114...nice going!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +3 207 +4 120 +4.5 114 help pls

Pat...yes...I do...she dropped to 73...I gave her 1 tsp 6% w/1 tsp 10% topper. Retest in 30 or sooner?
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +4 120 +4.5 114 +5 73 help pls

It does look like Gracie's nadir is between +4 and +6 so the drop should be slowing down.
You did feed so retest in 30 minutes......this is a good number for Gracie to start surfing. :mrgreen:
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS 415 +2 262 +4 120 +4.5 114 +5 73 +5.5 87

No food @ +5.5 as she is getting near nadir and I want her to surf. If there are other recommendations, pls let us know. We will retest @ +6.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415+2 262+4 120+4.5 114+5 73+5.5 87 +6 92

Hi Gracie some day you are having again look at her go anyway I use mini meals for Do Lou as well he eats about every 2-3 hours except when its close to amps and pmps time I try to never feed past +9 so avoid food affecting your pre shot numbers
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415+2 262+4 120+4.5 114+5 73+5.5 87 +6 92

Thanks, Lisa!! Yes...I'm happy she came out of the bounce so quickly and I hope I can somehow keep her from bouncing again. I do feed her small meals every few hours (usually on even numbers +2, +4, etc.); our last feed during the day is 2 hours prior to PMPS and at night, I feed at +5 or +6 and do not feed until I have done her AMPS. But I think I might need to feed her at +1 to slow her dive from her AMPS.

Hope all is well with Do Lou today. We're going to try and get a few things done this afternoon...like buying CAT FUD!!

Thank you!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415+2 262+4 120+4.5 114+5 73+5.5 87 +6 92

Hi Marjorie. I think Gracie is doing wonderfully, but I feel your angst. I was there too. There was a time when the greens terrified me more than the pinks and reds.
I found that experimenting with the food and carb percentages in the first few hours of each cycle helped to control Achilles' bounces.
I followed Pat's advice of the +1, +2 and +3 feedings and it worked for Achilles -- but please keep in mind that every cat is different, so you will have to see what works for Gracie.
To keep Achilles from getting too full too early I split his pre-shot meal in half. He gets the first half at pre-shot and the second half an hour later. At first, he would look in his bowl and then look up at us and I knew he was thinking "excuse me, umm...this bowl is a little on the light side....fil'er up" But it's amazing how quickly he adjusted. Now, he comes back an hour later and patiently waits for breakfast #2.
You are lucky that you are home to test and fine tune the curve. You are doing a great job with Gracie.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415+2 262+4 120+4.5 114+5 73+5.5 87 +6 92

Eva did a great job with Achilles....and she did have to leave so early in the morning...
a lot of people have great success with the mini meals. But you do have to try to experiment with the food and see how Gracie reacts. Feed a little less at breffis as Eva said...and then do the mini meals. You can't loose anything by trying it at least. Usually, people feed less later in the cycle, eliminating food after +8 or so. Giving most of the food earlier on...
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415+2 262+4 120+4.5 114+5 73+5.5 87 +6 92

Thanks, Eva!!! That helps...I've looked at your SSs so many times but it helps to get the info straight from you instead of trying to read the notes each day. We do feed Gracie a couple tsp after her PS and then a little while I'm shootin gjust to distract her. But what I haven't been doing and need to do is try +1, +2, +3 instead of +2 and +4. So do you not feed after +3 until after PS? Thank you!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415+2 120+4.5 114+5 73+5.5 87 +6 92 +7.5 153

since marjorie always has to 'steer' this dose would it be adviseable to do a skinny?
i don't like the idea of having to steer a dose to be ok....think the steering means it might be a hair too high.
fwiw, and probably not much :razz:
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415+2 120+4.5 114+5 73+5.5 87 +6 92 +7.5 153

When a kitty is in a bounce and then begins to get back down to the nicer numbers, they sometimes go low too quickly and drop too far. With the longer duration insulins, we use food to soften the drop.

Eventually, the bounces stop being so high and then finally, they stop altogether.
We are giving the same amount of food but it is separated into different mini meals.
We do this all the time Lori...it is quite efficient and successful.

When the kitty goes <50 we lower the dose. It's the steep drops we are trying to avoid. Marjorie is asking a lot of good questions and she is getting the hang of this. She's doing great, isn't she?
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415+2 262+4 120+4.5 114+5 73+5.5 87 +6 92

Marjorie and Gracie said:
But what I haven't been doing and need to do is try +1, +2, +3 instead of +2 and +4. So do you not feed after +3 until after PS? Thank you!
Click to expand...

The automatic feeder has been our saviour because I am out the door for tbp before Achilles got his AM shot and I wasn't home until past his PM shot. Looong day....

When I was feeding +1, +2, and +3 I was also feeding a +8 or +9 before the PM shot -- and I repeated the same cycle at night. I've revamped his feeding schedule a bit now, but he still gets that +8 snack as I found it got his pancreas working and gave us a nicer AM number. Once you start experimenting you will figure out what works best for Gracie. I would be remiss if I didn't give many thanks to Sienne, Libby, Pat, Roni and many others whose names escape me at the moment, who offered advice on using food to "feed the curve."
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415+2 120+4.5 114+5 73+5.5 87 +6 92 +7.5 153

Hi Marjorie! Looks like alot of folks have chimed in on the mini meals. In essence all that they said is what I do. As they said ECID, and you will have to experiment with Gracie to see how much will work best.

This is what I do with Mannie:
Main meal at ps, for him it's about an ounce. He is then fed at +1, +2, +3 - about 1 tsp each feeding. The purpose of this is to slow/offset the effects of the insulin, allow less of a drop and by doing so hopefully create a flatter curve, which would reduce the tendency to bounce. He does not receive any additional feedings after that - except for a snack at +8, sometimes +9. It will not eliminate the bounces altogether - sometime these kitties just have mind of their own. But it will lessen their severity. It is important to remember too that this is not an overnight fix - it took us a few months to really see a change in Mannie's numbers, and the lessening of the drops and bounces. patience, and consistency in following the plan are important here. If you stick with this feeding plan I think you will see a difference in Gracie's numbers.

The thing to remember with this is that you won't always have the lower mid-cycle or nadir numbers that you were used to seeing. You may have to increase the dose to find the lower numbers again. There is saying in LL: sometimes you have to go up, in order to come down. I had to do this with Mannie once I started front loading the cycle with food. - you can probably see that from his SS.

Normally I feed Mannie LC - about 3%. There are times that I have had to adjust simply because he is in a drop situation, and I want to level him out - like what you have been doing for Gracie. it will take some experimentation for you to learn how Gracie responds to food.

Mannie has always been a diver - I have had times when he has gone from 400 down to 90 in one hour - that was scary. He's had dives where he has gone down 200 point in two hours. This mini meal approach has really helped with this - we see them less. And because there is food manipulation to control the effects of the insulin the curve is flatter - flatter curves mean less bouncing. He still will dive on occasion, but because I have learned how he responds to the different carb % I can control how much he dives when they start. :-D Well - most of the time.

I hope this helps. There was a post on my condo, sometime back in June I think, where Jill discusses the mini meal approach. it is very informative. I am sorry that I just can't remember when - my SS indicates that it was around 6/1/2010. If I can find it I will send it to you.

Good luck! I hope I haven't totally confused you. Just ask if anything is unclear. Sienne probably could help too - she was the one that got be started on feeding mini meals.

and very nice cycle today for Gracie!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415 +4.5 114+5 73 +6 92 +7.5 153 +11 330

marjorie..i can start the answer to your renal threshold question asked in moonie's condo...and then the more experienced folk can expound...

renal threshold is the bg level where glucose is extracted from the blood and dumped into the urine... can be detected by a ketone test. how it is related to DKA will have to be better explained by someone else. the studies i've read have varying ranges...avg seems to run from 130-270 or higher...but i'm not clear on the most well accepted range.

that's about the extent of my knowledge...hopefully someone will chime in with more info.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415 +4.5 114+5 73 +6 92 +7.5 153 +11 330

Michelle, Eva, and Pat: Ok...I think I have the basics down; now it will be figuring out the % carb to give her so I'm still off on that I think. Most of her regular foods are 4 to 7%; I have some 3% foods that she will eat but isn't crazy about and I need to be sure she eats. I was thinking if she is really high again tomorrow, it seems like a 6% would steer her down a little slower than a 3% wouldn't it? Like you said, we'll have to experiment. When I was trying to keep her surfing today, I chose to use her 6% with a little 10% topper and that caused her to start up again so I might need to stick with her 6% when she's in the 70s and hold off on the others until she's lower; however, the other day when she got to 57, we were giving her 18% and she was slow to respond. I wish my baby girl was not like my science project :lol: :lol:

We've been giving her a snack at +5 or +6 before we go to bed at night but I'm going to try the +1, +2, +3 and then get up at +8 and see if that helps. She is not even at PMPS and she's already bouncing back ridiculously. I can only pray that this is not causing any permanent damage to any other organs. She's so still on days like today and I can't blame her...she sleeps more.

Thanks again...your help is so appreciated and I know we'll get there. Hugs to you all!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415 +4.5 114+5 73 +6 92 +7.5 153 +11 330

I love the science experiment comment - it so seems to be that most of what I do with Mannie is one big science experiment. :-D Soon you will know what % carbs to feed. It does get easier... yes, it does. :-D

Good luck - I hope Gracie has a great evening! - you too!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415 +4.5 114+5 73 +6 92 +7.5 153 +11 330

Hey Marjorie, sorry I'm so late getting here today. Definitely a roller coaster ride for little Gracie today, huh? Nice to see her hitting the green tho!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie AMPS415 +4.5 114+5 73 +6 92 +7.5 153 +11 330

I'm going to add a couple of things to what others have said -- not a lot because you've gotten a ton of good information.

First, you've been dealing with Gracie's FD for 11 days. Her system is still adjusting to getting insulin. Bounces are expected and a part of the process. Some kitties have an easier time with them and others, not so much. Time is one factor that helps with the bouncing. You really do need to be patient and you can't rush this process. One HUGE factor you need to keep in mind is that you are not the person leading in this sugar dance -- Gracie is. And Gracie is a cat. You can be doing absolutely everything right and Gracie will decide that she's in the mood to rewrite the rule book.

Gabby is a drama queen. She bounces and, like Manny, can go from reds on both ends of the cycle and earn a decrease in between. Her bounces have gotten much, much better. Jill is very adept at helping people use food to manipulate the curve. She worked with me with Gabby and I've passed information along to Michelle and others. Even with the feeding schedule Gabby is currently on, I modify. This evening, when I was testing every 30 min., I was splitting up Gabby's +3 and +4 meals and giving half of what I normally give with each test. It's a way to keep her numbers in the range I wanted.

Using food is based on your cat. What others have said, every cat is different (ECID), applies.

Also, you asked in another condo about renal threshold. This is the point above which glucose spills from the kidneys into the urine. The level is different in every cat. It's generally in the mid- to upper 200s but it varies from anywhere from 220 to 290. See this information on renal threshold.
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie PMPS 365

marjorie, check out powder at +3 37 and mama bean cool as a cucumber...yikes!
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie PMPS 365

Michelle: thanks for your encouragement...things actually have already gotten better. We are not as overwhelmed and everything doesn't seem as daunting as it did before. Now it's just figuring Gracie out...oh yeah...and sleep deprivation! But I think we have a plan for that :lol: :lol:

Anne...thanks for checking in. Yes...it's been a bouncy day...like Binks. Well, we're trying something new and I hope it works or else we'll try something else.

Sienne...as always, you provide great info for us. We started the recommended protocol this afternoon so we'll see what happens and I understand it might take a few cycles. And you are right, it's only been 11 days and I am encouraged that in those 11 days, it hasn't been all pinks and yellows...we've seen some greens/blues so at least I know she is getting some insulin. And I've seen her have happier days and be quite her old self so that's happy for us. Any time you have anything else to share that Jill has taught you, I am all ears. I will learn anything I need to in order to best help Gracie. I am trying to figure out now what % carbs she best responds to in order to slow her down or get her back up. At this time, I certainly don't have the knowledge to know to feed like you do to address Gabby's situation but I need and want to learn so feel free to throw it at me!

Also...on the renal threshold: I actually did realize what that meant; my vet and I have discussed it but not put that term to it. I test Gracie's urine every day for ketones and also, when her BG gets below 300 for a bit of time, I check to see what her urine glucose is. She seems to spill closer to the higher number of 290 and it takes a bit to clear. If her BG is over 300, I don't even bother testing the urine for glucose..I know she'll have it.

Lori..yes...I've been watching Powder's numbers. So...I'm not quite yet to the cool as a cucumber at 37. I think I made great headway being relatively calm at 57! Baby steps!

Thanks again to all. Gracie says nini to you east coasters. Papabean is staying up for the night shift tonight :lol: :lol:
 
Re: 9/29 Gracie PMPS 365 +2 324

just popping in to see how ya'll are doing today. Wow, what a great day Gracie had. Sorry about the bounce, but it looks like it's clearing already. ni-ni.
 
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