9/27 Oberon AMPS 462, +2 412, +4 358,+6 337, +9 337, PMPS 331, +2 345, +5.5 357

Lisa & Oberon

Member Since 2020
yesterday: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB...-282-6-327-9-344-pmps-344-labs-update.235948/

And there's the big bounce I'd been expecting... 462 at AMPS. (Ketones 1.3.) Highest BG he's had, but it took a lot longer for him to get there from his dip (4 cycles ago).

This is his 10th cycle at 4.5 U. He's scheduled to get an increase tonight; any reason not to do it? He dropped really low (79 on an AlphaTrak meter at the vet) at this dose during the big dip. Should I wait until I see what happens when the bounce clears? The vet said to hold this dose until his appointment on Monday, but she doesn't know the protocol I'm following.
 
Definitely dropping back down already, so that's good.

Another thing I forgot to mention from Friday's vet visit: In the report, the internist suggests a Libre "to better evaluate blood glucose levels at home." I'm all about getting more data, but do you think there would be a huge benefit to this vs. the testing I've already been doing? I could test more frequently if they really want more data; betwen the two of us we've pretty much got all day coverage except from about 12 am to 4 am. My gut feel is that the Libre is unnecessary, but I'd like other opinions.
 
I would wait until the bounce clears, just to see whether it was a true indication of the dose, or just the circumstances. However, if his ketones go up, I'd increase sooner. He does need the increase, it's just a matter of timing.

As for the Libre, I'm not sure how it would be better than what you are doing now. Have you read this post in Think Tank about it? What that post doesn't mention is that we've had some cats managed to take it off within days of application. I rather suspect the manufacturer of the Libre has been doing some marketing to vets.
 
I would wait until the bounce clears, just to see whether it was a true indication of the dose, or just the circumstances. However, if his ketones go up, I'd increase sooner. He does need the increase, it's just a matter of timing.

As for the Libre, I'm not sure how it would be better than what you are doing now. Have you read this post in Think Tank about it? What that post doesn't mention is that we've had some cats managed to take it off within days of application. I rather suspect the manufacturer of the Libre has been doing some marketing to vets.

Sounds good. I'll hold off, but continue to check ketones at AMPS and PMPS. Do you think the increase should be 0.25, strictly following TR, or 0.5 because of the ketones, like I did with the last increase?

When I sent records over to the vet before Friday's appointment, I sent my graph because it's so easy to see the dip/bounce pattern that way, but didn't send the standard FDMB spreadsheet. (My top priority right then was having them understand that he was in the middle of a dip.) It's not as easy to see how frequent the tests are when you look at my graph, so it's possible the vet doesn't really realize how often I'm testing. I'll send the SS over before tomorrow's appointment.
 
337 at +6.

Also just heard from the vet to get a deposit for tomorrow's tests. They already had the Libre on the bill and I told them I want to discuss it with the vet before proceeding. They also still didn't have a CBC/blood chem panel on the list (!). I had sent over the results from July and I wonder if they didn't look closely at the date and don't realize it should be redone. The plan is to do the dexamethasone suppression test, plus test for IGF, fructosamine, and B12. I'll ask them to add the CBC/blood chem panel and the IAA test. Anything else I'm missing? Someone yesterday mentioned a urine cortisol:creatinine test? Maybe urine microalbumin?
 
Tell the vet to take the Libre off the bill, as well as the fructosamine. You don't need either. Make sure you get a full senior blood panel, including T4 test and hopefully they send it to Idexx and you get the SDMA value too. The urine cortisol:creatinine ratio (UCCR) test is often done first to test for Cushings, and can be done with urine taken from home, so you don't need to stress the cat taking it into the vet. From post How to Diagnose Cushings. You don't need urine microalbumin, are they suggesting it?

Increase would be 0.25 units.
 
Tell the vet to take the Libre off the bill, as well as the fructosamine. You don't need either. Make sure you get a full senior blood panel, including T4 test and hopefully they send it to Idexx and you get the SDMA value too. The urine cortisol:creatinine ratio (UCCR) test is often done first to test for Cushings, and can be done with urine taken from home, so you don't need to stress the cat taking it into the vet. From post How to Diagnose Cushings. You don't need urine microalbumin, are they suggesting it?

Increase would be 0.25 units.

Helpful link, thanks!

I'll make sure to request the senior panel w/T4 and SDMA if possible. He has to go in anyways for the blood draw, so I think I'm ok with the dexamethasone test, even though it means he'll be there all day, but I'll also ask about UCCR. I mentioned the urine microalbumin here because that was added on to his last test in July and was slightly elevated at that time (2.6, threshold is 2.5). If it's not necessary I won't complicate things more by asking the vet about it.
 
Holding steady from +6 to PMPS; ketones at PMPS were 0.5, so that's really good. He got fluids earlier, but he's still refusing the Baytril crushed in food. Looks like I may have to actually try to pill him. I was hoping to avoid it because so far I haven't had to force him to do anything. (On the other hand, we still don't have urine culture results back so we don't even know for sure that he needs the Baytril...)
 
Hello.

Please speak to your internist about the reason why they want to use the Libre so as to understand it better. It isn’t just another means of getting some numbers that are able to be obtained using a glucometer. If it is a cost issue right now, then maybe revisit it, but if you are able to do it, I would highly recommend doing it. I am going to explain the differences, reasons for using a CGM in addition to BG testing and if you want or need any additional info, including graph data, video explanations etc please let me know & I’m happy to share it.

I actually did BG testing for over a year (and still do) and then used the Libre recently to get the information that I was never going to get with BG testing alone. If I could go back in time, I would have used it sooner vs later. The reality is that I just didn’t fully understand its utility and then I allowed the fear of the unknown & how stressful it might be to get the best of me and delayed using it. I actually finally listened to 2 of the leading feline diabetes experts in the US and tried it. I wanted to use the device that would allow me to get and see information that I did not have and simply would never have without it. There are actually even cats that these top feline diabetes specialists thought they had regulated well as per BG curves, but then found out that they weren’t so regulated once they utilized the Libre. Sometimes, you get lucky and it turns out that they are regulated well, but it still is a game changer to be able to actually see and know what is happening vs worrying or guessing. Otherwise, also helpful with dosing-seeing what happens with dosing for a nice blueprint.

Blood glucose is incredibly dynamic vs static meaning it fluctuates quite a bit. The speed of the changes make it difficult at times, actually even impossible at times, to know what came before or after some BG checks and what the speed of the change was. With BG checks, you will read about the importance of data (i.e. get +1 or +2 or +11) & they are absolutely right that you need more data to eventually see the trends more clearly and make the best dosing decisions. The fact is, with BG checks alone you are simply limited with the amount of data you are able to get with a glucometer vs a CGM. Let’s say you get more BG tests.....one an hour for 24 hours. You’ve got 24 static BG checks (and loss of sleep :)) that will certainly put some pieces of the puzzle together for you, but a great deal of your puzzle will still be missing. The Libre will collect a measurement every minute, record the data every 15 minutes and you get the actual dynamic trends happening. So, 24 static BG checks and static info, loss of sleep, probably some anxiety OR 1440 checks which give you the more complete picture AND dynamic vs static trends that are happening.

People try to guess “did they bounce?” “Was it the food” “did they drop overnight”........all questions more easily answered utilizing the Libre. My ability to adjust and try dosing options became child’s play compared to using BG testing alone to do it & I was able to do it very safely not having to stall on a dose change because I actually knew what was going on.

I also want to try to put to rest that the manufacturer has reps talking to vets and that’s the reason why vets are using them more and more every day—-especially when it comes to the internal medicine vets/specialists. The leading experts in feline diabetes who are continuing to work tirelessly to advance research, diagnosis, treatment & management of diabetes are the ones who are influencing the internists and vets to utilize the Libre because of the simple reality of what they have studied and seen now over years and years of utilizing a CGM and seeing and showing how it is able to be helpful, even a game changer, when managing feline & canine diabetes. They are the ones lecturing, publishing papers and book chapters and recommending the use of the CGM.....and this is the reason why it is being recommended and will continue to be recommended to clients...not because Lilly has deployed a group of reps to the vet offices. I actually wish they could go to vet offices and share the info & data from the leading academic universities vet hospitals because it would help a lot of cats and dogs and the pet parents :rolleyes:.

As far as keeping the Libre on goes....one of the feline DM experts who was part of validating its use in cats & has literally applied it to 100s & 100s of cats over years now, applies it to the side of the neck below the ear and then uses the Kitty Kollar to provide some additional protection. Applying the sensor on the back of the cat is more of an issue when it comes to the cat messing with it. Some cats won’t mess with it, but it was less successful as far as keeping it on. The other key is to use less Vetbond glue, as they have discovered it can be more of an irritant as days go on vs the actual CGM adhesive causing the problem. The one other key thing to keep in mind is it does not have to stay on the entire 14 days. With 1440 readings per day, if you get a week or even 5 days—you have a lot of helpful info pertaining to what is happening from a dynamic sense and with respect to speed and direction of highs and lows after onset, meals, nadir, overnight etc., What is the consistency..or lack of consistency, transient highs or lows & speed they happen? You will now not only have a +1 through +12 am/pm cycles but the +1 and every minute in between to that +2 and so on. Bonus—while you sleep, no data lost or brought into question. Simply scan the sensor within 8 hours and you see what happened while you were catching some much needed sleep :cool:!

Do not get rid of the glucometer because if you see a low, you will check the BG. There will continue to be a place for the glucometer even while using the CGM :). However, in the next few years, as the CGMs become much smaller and cheaper, the potential to use them more regularly for pets vs for just a few weeks or month will become more of a reality.

Sorry for the crazy lengthy post! Again, please contact me if you have any questions or want more info now or in the future Re: application, best practices (including getting it OFF :p) :). Sometimes we take one step/one thing at a time and the added device right now in this moment may feel overwhelming, but try to keep it in mind for later if you decide to pass on it now. Best :bighug:
 
@Tomlin It would be incredibly helpful if Mr T's spreadsheet had permissions set so that we could look at it and see what you are talking about.

As it is, Oberon looks like he still is under dose, and I suspect a Libre would just show a lot of high numbers - not particularly useful at this point in time.
 
I do not utilize the spreadsheet anymore secondary to having my own :) where I am able to more easily see what I need to see pertaining to Tomlin’s medical info/med changes etc.

However, I am more than happy to share some data, including some screenshots from the Libre graph to show more about what I am talking about pertaining to dynamics—speed and direction :). The pictures really help :p. It would be great for people to understand why and in what situations they are usually recommended. Again, for now they are an added tool able to be used to help people and pets out.

I don’t want to consume this thread but will post one the main forum in the coming days when I have some more time :bighug:
 
Thanks, Tomlin! That's a lot to think about and I'm glad to have your input. I'll definitely talk to the vet tomorrow about why she's recommending the Libre right now. I'm intrigued by it, but as Wendy said, right now I think it'll just show a bunch of high numbers and occasional dips. There are a handful of overnight gaps where I suspect he had other dips but can't prove it, but the dips wouldn't have much effect on my current protocol (keep increasing!) even if I had measured them. Once we get him to a more effective dose and he has an actual daily curve, it might make more sense to try the Libre. The other reason to delay is simply that right now I'm trying to get a handle on some possible new problems (renal, GI, adrenal, etc.), and I think I want to sort that out before diving into something new. The good news is that I have a vet who'll be wiling to do it if I want to.

If you post more about this on the main thread, maybe pop me a note to let me know? I don't spend a lot of time there and I'd probably miss it.
 
Hello.

Please speak to your internist about the reason why they want to use the Libre so as to understand it better. It isn’t just another means of getting some numbers that are able to be obtained using a glucometer. If it is a cost issue right now, then maybe revisit it, but if you are able to do it, I would highly recommend doing it. I am going to explain the differences, reasons for using a CGM in addition to BG testing and if you want or need any additional info, including graph data, video explanations etc please let me know & I’m happy to share it.

I actually did BG testing for over a year (and still do) and then used the Libre recently to get the information that I was never going to get with BG testing alone. If I could go back in time, I would have used it sooner vs later. The reality is that I just didn’t fully understand its utility and then I allowed the fear of the unknown & how stressful it might be to get the best of me and delayed using it. I actually finally listened to 2 of the leading feline diabetes experts in the US and tried it. I wanted to use the device that would allow me to get and see information that I did not have and simply would never have without it. There are actually even cats that these top feline diabetes specialists thought they had regulated well as per BG curves, but then found out that they weren’t so regulated once they utilized the Libre. Sometimes, you get lucky and it turns out that they are regulated well, but it still is a game changer to be able to actually see and know what is happening vs worrying or guessing. Otherwise, also helpful with dosing-seeing what happens with dosing for a nice blueprint.

Blood glucose is incredibly dynamic vs static meaning it fluctuates quite a bit. The speed of the changes make it difficult at times, actually even impossible at times, to know what came before or after some BG checks and what the speed of the change was. With BG checks, you will read about the importance of data (i.e. get +1 or +2 or +11) & they are absolutely right that you need more data to eventually see the trends more clearly and make the best dosing decisions. The fact is, with BG checks alone you are simply limited with the amount of data you are able to get with a glucometer vs a CGM. Let’s say you get more BG tests.....one an hour for 24 hours. You’ve got 24 static BG checks (and loss of sleep :)) that will certainly put some pieces of the puzzle together for you, but a great deal of your puzzle will still be missing. The Libre will collect a measurement every minute, record the data every 15 minutes and you get the actual dynamic trends happening. So, 24 static BG checks and static info, loss of sleep, probably some anxiety OR 1440 checks which give you the more complete picture AND dynamic vs static trends that are happening.

People try to guess “did they bounce?” “Was it the food” “did they drop overnight”........all questions more easily answered utilizing the Libre. My ability to adjust and try dosing options became child’s play compared to using BG testing alone to do it & I was able to do it very safely not having to stall on a dose change because I actually knew what was going on.

I also want to try to put to rest that the manufacturer has reps talking to vets and that’s the reason why vets are using them more and more every day—-especially when it comes to the internal medicine vets/specialists. The leading experts in feline diabetes who are continuing to work tirelessly to advance research, diagnosis, treatment & management of diabetes are the ones who are influencing the internists and vets to utilize the Libre because of the simple reality of what they have studied and seen now over years and years of utilizing a CGM and seeing and showing how it is able to be helpful, even a game changer, when managing feline & canine diabetes. They are the ones lecturing, publishing papers and book chapters and recommending the use of the CGM.....and this is the reason why it is being recommended and will continue to be recommended to clients...not because Lilly has deployed a group of reps to the vet offices. I actually wish they could go to vet offices and share the info & data from the leading academic universities vet hospitals because it would help a lot of cats and dogs and the pet parents :rolleyes:.

As far as keeping the Libre on goes....one of the feline DM experts who was part of validating its use in cats & has literally applied it to 100s & 100s of cats over years now, applies it to the side of the neck below the ear and then uses the Kitty Kollar to provide some additional protection. Applying the sensor on the back of the cat is more of an issue when it comes to the cat messing with it. Some cats won’t mess with it, but it was less successful as far as keeping it on. The other key is to use less Vetbond glue, as they have discovered it can be more of an irritant as days go on vs the actual CGM adhesive causing the problem. The one other key thing to keep in mind is it does not have to stay on the entire 14 days. With 1440 readings per day, if you get a week or even 5 days—you have a lot of helpful info pertaining to what is happening from a dynamic sense and with respect to speed and direction of highs and lows after onset, meals, nadir, overnight etc., What is the consistency..or lack of consistency, transient highs or lows & speed they happen? You will now not only have a +1 through +12 am/pm cycles but the +1 and every minute in between to that +2 and so on. Bonus—while you sleep, no data lost or brought into question. Simply scan the sensor within 8 hours and you see what happened while you were catching some much needed sleep :cool:!

Do not get rid of the glucometer because if you see a low, you will check the BG. There will continue to be a place for the glucometer even while using the CGM :). However, in the next few years, as the CGMs become much smaller and cheaper, the potential to use them more regularly for pets vs for just a few weeks or month will become more of a reality.

Sorry for the crazy lengthy post! Again, please contact me if you have any questions or want more info now or in the future Re: application, best practices (including getting it OFF :p) :). Sometimes we take one step/one thing at a time and the added device right now in this moment may feel overwhelming, but try to keep it in mind for later if you decide to pass on it now. Best :bighug:

Thanks for posting that info. And as the former manager of a busy veterinary specialty practice, I would agree that it's unlikely that vets would push the Libre because of sales rep influence. My experience has been that the vets I've worked for (in specialty practice particularly, but also general practice) did NOT like to meet with sales reps and generally tried to avoid it whenever possible. They are busy and they don't like feeling that someone is pressuring them to try a new drugs or devices. It's much more likely that a vet will try something new if learning about it at a professional continuing education event, through a peer-reviewed journal, from another vet they respect, or because their techs hear about it and bring it to their attention (along with the appropriate research). And they generally want to see the same recommendations, research or advice coming from more than one direction before being willing to make a potentially risky change to drug protocols, medical devices or procedures.
 
:)Hi Lisa.

I am sorry Oberon is not feeling well & you are having to sort through disease states. I have been there and it can be stressful :(. I had to sort through Addisons, GI & chronic pancreatitis, rule outs of heart and kidney issues & the addition of med changes with the diabetes with my T last Fall & it was a lot :eek::nailbiting:! I will be thinking about you both & hoping that you get the info you need with the planned testing.

I didn’t see anything mentioned Re: a cystocentesis to get the urine specific gravity value and that is always an important test for kideny function. Even if/when creatinine, BUN & SDMA are elevated but high normal (and hydration can effect the creatinine value), if the USD is good, you will know the kidneys are able to concentrate the urine well & you are then able to push the other values aside for now. You would then just repeat the tests 3 months from now when hopefully the other issues are addressed and stable and see if the other values have come down as well :).

I am happy you are going to ask the IM her thoughts Re: the CGM. Without asking, there is simply no way of knowing his/her specific thoughts/plan. I always want to know the “why” or thoughts behind a plan! I can tell you that with other underlying illnesses still being ruled out, the CGM would give them substantial data and trends quickly—make absolutely sure nothing is happening in between the BG checks—which then allows them to push dosing, if they want to, more aggressively & more confidently both now and later. If anything, such as an underlying disease process discovered (i.e. GI typically involves inflammation which commonly increases BG and dysregulates DM) or any meds are added to treat what is diagnosed, the device allows them to establish a rock solid baseline now & then check it along the way for changes. Managing diabetes with disease states can be very challenging and vets are just looking to use the advancement in technology to increase the efficacy and safety of treatment decisions for your cat.

I will definitely let you know when I post additional visuals, videos etc on the main forum. In the meantime, I will be hoping and praying for the best for Oberon as you go through the diagnostic process. Hang in there! Best-Amy :bighug:
 
Thanks, Amy! They did do a cystocentisis on Friday; urine SG was slightly low. But he'd gotten fluids the night before, so that might account for it.

The vet's on board with all the tests I discussed above; we're going to hold off on the Libre for now but I'm definitely considering it for later. I'll follow up in today's thread when I get more info.
 
Definitely could be those fluids :)! They did the same to my Ts USG last Fall so we just followed up as he got better and repeated all the renal labs to make sure all was ok.

Sounds like you’ve got a solid plan of attack with your IM :). Take care of yourself as Oberon gets worked up:bighug:. Sometimes we forget to stay hydrated and eat while managing and caring for others. It’s easy to lose the ole’ appetite with stress :nailbiting:. I now pack a little snack bag and water bottle when I go to the vets if I will be staying in the parking lot because I find myself worrying about the timing of calls to go over info. Hopefully you are close enough to do a drop off and go home for the wait :).
 
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