9/25, Susie, 292 AMPS, 274 @+2

Summer and Susie (GA)

Summer and Susie (GA)

Member Since 2020
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/9-24-susie-212-amps-167-2-120-3.253387/#post-2857812

A really high AMPS (double checked). I increased her insulin slightly to 1F. I'm really afraid to do any major increases until she starts eating. I cannot afford to give a higher dose and have her refuse to eat if she drops. I have to get her appetite back, first.

She acted like she felt good today. Came out looking for food. Followed me in for it and then turned her nose up at it. I tried a second food and she took a few bites and walked away. At this point, I don't know what to do. Nausea was never confirmed. I'm afraid to use the Mirataz if it is nausea but it might help her appetite. Should I try the Mirataz?

Will try to get some urine over the next few days for the UPC test.
 
tiffmaxee said:
Question. Prior to her loss of appetite you were saying you wanted to feed her less so she would lose weight. Did you feed less and for how long? An average female cat weighs about 10 pounds. If larger 12. I didn’t realize Tiffany was overweight and she was 12 pounds. My vet wanted her at 10.
Click to expand...

I have kept her on the same food amount for months. I did not decrease the amount I was feeding at any point. Now I am putting down all kinds of food just trying to get her to eat something. What do you think of the weight loss, Elise? 13.80 lbs. on July 21st and 12.20 lbs. on September 23rd. Does this sound like a safe weight loss over this period of time?
 
Labs are entered. All in all the blood test wasn't bad except for the glucose and the Albumin went up slightly. Of course, the urinalysis is disturbing. Will have to see what the Albumin represents.
 
Like Suzanne said, Susie may be dehydrated. I will try to add more water to her food:

Albumin – Why does it become high?
"There are not many meaningful causes of elevated albumin in dogs and cats. The most common is dehydration. Occasionally pets fed a diet with very high levels of protein develop elevated albumin levels, but this is not a very common occurrence. Thus a finding of an elevated albumin in a patient who is fed a typical dog or cat food should raise concern for dehydration."

I am still trying to get an answer to what is considered high protein in cat food and what is considered a normal, safe % of protein. ANYONE KNOW?
 
I hope Susie will eat better for you soon. Here is the list of suggestions to try and get a cat to eat. I hope something helps. Sending prayers. :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:

Do you have any parmesan cheese? If you maybe sprinkle a little of that on her food, she will perhaps eat? usually ondansetron is better for nausea than cerenia but it doesn't hurt to give her the cerenia....it can help.

Can you finger feed her....either see if she will lick food off your finger or will she let you dab some on the front of her tongue or on the roof of her mouth? Just be careful that it's only a small amount and that you don't get it down her throat.

Here's some info Jill often posts when a kitty won't eat:Here are some things you can do do entice your cat to eat:

-sometimes in order to get a cat to eat you even have to resort to dry it is more important that they eat. there are a couple low carb / grain free brands -- EVO and wellness core.

-making a buffet to give him choices
- heating food

sprinkle food with :
- forta flora -- a probiotic you can get at vets or online. is very smelly and cats love the taste of it.
- parm. cheese
- smashed crumbles of dry food
- Purebites Duck Liver -- crushed and put on as a topper.
- bonito tuna flakes
- halo chicken treats -- crumble into dust over food
- poor a little water from tuna in water over food ( I use low sodium/no sodium added as other kinds in water has veg. broth in it and I assume that means onions, which are toxic to cats-- check labels)
-powdered oregano. yep sounds weird . but some cats like it and it will entice them to eat.

other ideas of foods to offer your kitty to stim appy:
- trader joe tuna for cats
-baby food -- beechnut turkey and broth or chicken and broth. they have no onions or other additives. some babyfoods have onions . please read labels if you can't find beechnut.
- kentucky fried chicken
- deli turkey /chicken
- plain cooked ( boiled or baked ) chicken breast
-canned chicken for people (watch the label that their are no onions)
- chicken broth -- low sodium
 
Kidneys look good!
Cholesterol is good now.
I'm sure you know, but BG at vet will be AT numbers (higher than home test with human meter).

I have proteinuria off and on, but never when my glucose is in very good control, or when I drink enough (like a cat, my thirst drive is low).

When not feeling great, it is even more important to try controlling the BG. Sometimes higher BG turns out to be the ONLY reason for feeling off. Glad you increased a bit.

Btw, don't scream at me!! Temptations - just look at the ingredients eek!! Corn I think. My non diabetic cats went wild for them, but I tossed them after reading ingredients. A real last resort! I've had great luck with crumbled FD chicken, and parmesan cheese.

Look at any cat food comparison chart, and notice the Protein and fat and carbs percentages. If you want to try decreasing protein, choose higher fat! It is really that simple since we have to keep carbs low. Wish I could quickly pull one of our good charts up . . .

Honestly, it is hard looking at a cat that looks skinny BUT I bet Susie really looks better!? Tina used to weigh 13, and now she is close to perfect at 11 1/2. She eats 5-6 very small meals a day, about 1 ounce at a time.

Try not to worry and take care of YOU! Susie says, be mellow mommy - my labs look pretty darned good!!!
 
Well said Tina. In cats albumin goes up with dehydration. It will come down with bg under renal threshold. Thats why feeding dry isn’t a good idea for cats. That’s the benefit of TR over SLGS. I would not have any more diagnostic tests done until she’s back to mostly blue and green unless of course she is sick or continues to not eat well and seems sick. Forgetting about the labs and poorer than usual apps how does she act?
 
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So a mod on my crf list posted about protein that the tests should be done on a fast. Gabapentin can cause protein in urine in humans. Vets including mine who is up on things never has me fast for labs. I intend to fast cats if at all possible in the future. A high protein meal can raise creatinine.
 
iu
 
carfurby said:
I hope Susie will eat better for you soon. Here is the list of suggestions to try and get a cat to eat. I hope something helps. Sending prayers. :bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:

Do you have any parmesan cheese? If you maybe sprinkle a little of that on her food, she will perhaps eat? usually ondansetron is better for nausea than cerenia but it doesn't hurt to give her the cerenia....it can help.

Can you finger feed her....either see if she will lick food off your finger or will she let you dab some on the front of her tongue or on the roof of her mouth? Just be careful that it's only a small amount and that you don't get it down her throat.

Here's some info Jill often posts when a kitty won't eat:Here are some things you can do do entice your cat to eat:

-sometimes in order to get a cat to eat you even have to resort to dry it is more important that they eat. there are a couple low carb / grain free brands -- EVO and wellness core.

-making a buffet to give him choices
- heating food

sprinkle food with :
- forta flora -- a probiotic you can get at vets or online. is very smelly and cats love the taste of it.
- parm. cheese
- smashed crumbles of dry food
- Purebites Duck Liver -- crushed and put on as a topper.
- bonito tuna flakes
- halo chicken treats -- crumble into dust over food
- poor a little water from tuna in water over food ( I use low sodium/no sodium added as other kinds in water has veg. broth in it and I assume that means onions, which are toxic to cats-- check labels)
-powdered oregano. yep sounds weird . but some cats like it and it will entice them to eat.

other ideas of foods to offer your kitty to stim appy:
- trader joe tuna for cats
-baby food -- beechnut turkey and broth or chicken and broth. they have no onions or other additives. some babyfoods have onions . please read labels if you can't find beechnut.
- kentucky fried chicken
- deli turkey /chicken
- plain cooked ( boiled or baked ) chicken breast
-canned chicken for people (watch the label that their are no onions)
- chicken broth -- low sodium
Click to expand...
I saw this the other day when you posted it - maybe on someone else's site. She was interested in the smell of the forta flora. I had some for one of my dogs but she wouldn't eat. I got her to eat Purebites this morning and put a few in her morning meal. She did pretty good eating that but hasn't touched her mid morning meal of her lunch. She is just curled up sleeping. I will see if I can finger feed her. I'd like to get a 1/4 of a cerenia in her but don't know how to do it - especially with her swallowing issues. I also got some Gerbers chicken baby food I might try to get her to eat. She won't eat any human food. Thanks, Carla. I am hoping that she just got full from eating a pretty good breakfast and will be hungry at dinner.
 
Tina Marie and Jan said:
Kidneys look good!
Cholesterol is good now.
I'm sure you know, but BG at vet will be AT numbers (higher than home test with human meter).

I have proteinuria off and on, but never when my glucose is in very good control, or when I drink enough (like a cat, my thirst drive is low).

When not feeling great, it is even more important to try controlling the BG. Sometimes higher BG turns out to be the ONLY reason for feeling off. Glad you increased a bit.

Btw, don't scream at me!! Temptations - just look at the ingredients eek!! Corn I think. My non diabetic cats went wild for them, but I tossed them after reading ingredients. A real last resort! I've had great luck with crumbled FD chicken, and parmesan cheese.

Look at any cat food comparison chart, and notice the Protein and fat and carbs percentages. If you want to try decreasing protein, choose higher fat! It is really that simple since we have to keep carbs low. Wish I could quickly pull one of our good charts up . . .

Honestly, it is hard looking at a cat that looks skinny BUT I bet Susie really looks better!? Tina used to weigh 13, and now she is close to perfect at 11 1/2. She eats 5-6 very small meals a day, about 1 ounce at a time.

Try not to worry and take care of YOU! Susie says, be mellow mommy - my labs look pretty darned good!!!
Click to expand...
I was really happy with her labs, too. You would think if she had a kidney problem that would be reflected in the labs. I really do want to get her glucose under better control but not until she is eating better. I just have no idea why she doesn't eat like she used to. I know Temptations are bad but I have seen them actually stimulate her appetite to eat her cat food. What is the crumbled FD chicken? Susie used to have a really good appetite. It didn't matter if her glucose was high or low, she always wanted to eat. That is why I am so worried right now. I am trying to get more water in her food. Thank you, Jan. I appreciate the advice.
 
tiffmaxee said:
Well said Tina. In cats albumin goes up with dehydration. It will come down with bg under renal threshold. Thats why feeding dry isn’t a good idea for cats. That’s the benefit of TR over SLGS. I would not have any more diagnostic tests done until she’s back to mostly blue and green unless of course she is sick or continues to not eat well and seems sick. Forgetting about the labs and poorer than usual apps how does she act?
Click to expand...
Sometimes she acts fine and acts hungry. She came out for food this morning but when I put it down she wouldn't eat until I got some Purebites in her and then she ate her breakfast. She has been very sluggish since breakfast and has that scowl on her face. I know when she is not feeling well and she is not feeling well. Something is destroying her appetite. I think I have to go ahead and get the UPC test. I need some answers.
 
Summer and Susie said:
Pamela, when you have had to feed baby food did you have to syringe?
Click to expand...
I just fed my Ginger Gerber chicken (or was it Turkey?) baby food because she will not eat anything else right now. I just put it in a dish and she ate it - not a lot, bit at least a little. Just got home from a long morning at the vet! She’s got an elevated white count and we are putting her on Baytril ( vet wanted to do Convenia but I said No!). Anyway, you CAN syringe feed baby food or other food, but you may not need to at all.
 
Summer and Susie said:
Does anyone know if cerenia or ondansetron can be compounded into liquid form so I could syringe it into her mouth?
Click to expand...
I guess anything can be compounded? I would ask a compounding pharmacy or my vet. All they do is grind up the meds and mix with a liquid suspension ingredient and they calculate the strength based on the prescription strength needed.
The Ondansetron mini melts are oral dissolving tablets - very small tablets that dissolve in the mouth so don’t have to be chewed (as long as you get the ODT (oral dissolving tablet) form. But watch out, Ondansetron can be constipating and, to a lesser extent so can Cerenia. So you may need to give Miralax or psyllium fiber or similar laxatives in her food (which she right now doesn’t want to eat! ):banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
Okay, so this is my thinking. When I look at what causes Proteinuria there are several factors. Some of them, I believe, have been eliminated by her good labs. Can you good folks look at my assumption and tell me if you agree that I don't need the UPC test or I still should have it done.

Causes of Proteinuria:

CKD - If this were the problem, wouldn't it be indicated in the blood work? I saw no signs of kidney disease in her lab results.

Infection and/or bleeding - If Susie had an infection wouldn't her WBC count be elevated? Also, there was no blood in the urine.
  • Urinary tract infection - again, wouldn't this be indicated with the WBC count?
  • Kidney infection or inflammation - Also, should be indicated in blood work
  • High-protein diet - Could be. I will have to look closer at this.
  • Hypertension - No. Her blood pressure was good and that was at the vets where it can normally be high due to stress.
  • Uncontrolled diabetes - Yes. A distinct possibility
  • Parasites (such as lungworms and hookworms) - She could have lungworms but I think that would have shown up in her lab work. I believe, back in April, she had high ABS test in her blood and there was a possiblility of lungworms due to that. But, she does not have high ABS now. Her fecal was clean.
  • Cancer of the bladder or kidneys - Always a concern and I don't think this would be picked up on any bloodwork.
So, my thinking is that the proteinuria is due to a high-protein diet - not likely. I am more inclined to suspect uncontrolled diabetes or cancer. Still, this does not explain the loss of appetite unless it is cancer. If it is cancer, how do I go about finding out what kind of cancer it is?
 
I made a call to the vet this afternoon. They were getting ready to close. I'm going to try to get Susie in for fluids tomorrow. I'm probably going to skip the UPC. If I cannot get a guarantee of the cause of her problem I am not going to spend my money on it. I do think she will feel better if she is hydrated. I remember Simon, my CKD kitty, always felt better and ate a little better after fluids.
 
Summer and Susie said:
I can not afford numerous UPC test.
Click to expand...
I know. By the time I got to the bottom of the article, I thought it sounded like a bad can of worms to open by doing that test. I was thinking… who can afford all this? And you know this is really on my mind today since I had to take Ginger to the Emergency vet today. We drove the 25 minutes up to our regular vet, who has had Saturday hours from 9-1 ever since we’ve been going there for 15 years. Nobody was there! Parking lot empty! There was a sign on the door saying that their new hours were Monday through Friday! Soooo… back we went to the Emergency Vet another 35-40 minutes in the opposite direction! I sent in a handwritten paper with Ginger saying what was going on and authorizing them to do a CBC and Chemistry Panel. About an hour and a half later I spoke with the vet and found out that she had run other tests amounting to $150.00. I was really upset. She ran a pancreatitis test, an SDMA, and a T4. All but the panc test I had already done at her last checkup this year. The vet wanted to do a Convenia injection. I declined and asked for oral antibiotics, which I got. Anyway, my bill was a little over $500. I did speak with the vet tech about it and she knew that I had only authorized $180 in tests plus the (outrageous) exam fee of $125. I paid, but she said she would speak to the practice manager about it. They just called me back and said they are refunding me the $150 for the unauthorized tests! Whew. It already was bad enough that my vet is not open on Saturday mornings anymore - so I had to pay ER prices .. but extra tests are ridiculous. I am glad that I held their feet to the fire about it!
So I am with you on unaffordable testing! I get it. That’s why I don’t think you should do the test when the other indicators of kidney function are good. I’m agreeing with you!
 
Summer and Susie said:
I made a call to the vet this afternoon. They were getting ready to close. I'm going to try to get Susie in for fluids tomorrow. I'm probably going to skip the UPC. If I cannot get a guarantee of the cause of her problem I am not going to spend my money on it. I do think she will feel better if she is hydrated. I remember Simon, my CKD kitty, always felt better and ate a little better after fluids.
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I gave Bama subq fluids today and he seems to have perked up. He ate well at his PM meal. If part of Susie's problem is due to dehydration, then subqs will definitely help.
 
Bama Kitty Mom said:
I gave Bama subq fluids today and he seems to have perked up. He ate well at his PM meal. If part of Susie's problem is due to dehydration, then subqs will definitely help.
Click to expand...
I gave some to Ginger too. It’s so convenient (and cheaper) to do them at home. I wonder how much the ER vet would have charged me? I told them no, I would do at home. Of course, I keep the supplies always on hand. I did let them give her Cerenia but really I have boxes of the stuff at home and could have done that too since she hasn’t been vomiting. She’s perked up a bit. Still 34 breaths per minute which is too fast.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I know. By the time I got to the bottom of the article, I thought it sounded like a bad can of worms to open by doing that test. I was thinking… who can afford all this? And you know this is really on my mind today since I had to take Ginger to the Emergency vet today. We drove the 25 minutes up to our regular vet, who has had Saturday hours from 9-1 ever since we’ve been going there for 15 years. Nobody was there! Parking lot empty! There was a sign on the door saying that their new hours were Monday through Friday! Soooo… back we went to the Emergency Vet another 35-40 minutes in the opposite direction! I sent in a handwritten paper with Ginger saying what was going on and authorizing them to do a CBC and Chemistry Panel. About an hour and a half later I spoke with the vet and found out that she had run other tests amounting to $150.00. I was really upset. She ran a pancreatitis test, an SDMA, and a T4. All but the panc test I had already done at her last checkup this year. The vet wanted to do a Convenia injection. I declined and asked for oral antibiotics, which I got. Anyway, my bill was a little over $500. I did speak with the vet tech about it and she knew that I had only authorized $180 in tests plus the (outrageous) exam fee of $125. I paid, but she said she would speak to the practice manager about it. They just called me back and said they are refunding me the $150 for the unauthorized tests! Whew. It already was bad enough that my vet is not open on Saturday mornings anymore - so I had to pay ER prices .. but extra tests are ridiculous. I am glad that I held their feet to the fire about it!
So I am with you on unaffordable testing! I get it. That’s why I don’t think you should do the test when the other indicators of kidney function are good. I’m agreeing with you!
Click to expand...

Is Ginger okay, Suzanne? I hope so. Sounds like a nightmare to have driven 25 minutes to your regular vet only to find he was closed. And then to have to drive the additional miles to the ER clinic.

I think I will be taking Susie to the ER clinic tomorrow. She is not eating. What more do I need to say about that? If anything I will take her to the clinic on Monday when the Intern is there. I hope Ginger is okay. I'm sorry, I am so tired tonight.
I am happy that you got a refund on your Ginger. How is she?
 
Summer and Susie said:
Is Ginger okay, Suzanne? I hope so. Sounds like a nightmare to have driven 25 minutes to your regular vet only to find he was closed. And then to have to drive the additional miles to the ER clinic.

I think I will be taking Susie to the ER clinic tomorrow. She is not eating. What more do I need to say about that? If anything I will take her to the clinic on Monday when the Intern is there. I hope Ginger is okay. I'm sorry, I am so tired tonight.
I am happy that you got a refund on your Ginger. How is she?
Click to expand...
Not sure yet if she’s getting better but she’s on antibiotics. I’m very worried about Susie. Be sure to bring the labs with you tomorrow. Maybe she will start eating again. :bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Summer and Susie said:
Is Ginger okay, Suzanne? I hope so. Sounds like a nightmare to have driven 25 minutes to your regular vet only to find he was closed. And then to have to drive the additional miles to the ER clinic.

I think I will be taking Susie to the ER clinic tomorrow. She is not eating. What more do I need to say about that? If anything I will take her to the clinic on Monday when the Intern is there. I hope Ginger is okay. I'm sorry, I am so tired tonight.
I am happy that you got a refund on your Ginger. How is she?
Click to expand...
Healing hugs,prayers and strength:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
Summer and Susie said:
I saw this the other day when you posted it - maybe on someone else's site. She was interested in the smell of the forta flora. I had some for one of my dogs but she wouldn't eat. I got her to eat Purebites this morning and put a few in her morning meal. She did pretty good eating that but hasn't touched her mid morning meal of her lunch. She is just curled up sleeping. I will see if I can finger feed her. I'd like to get a 1/4 of a cerenia in her but don't know how to do it - especially with her swallowing issues. I also got some Gerbers chicken baby food I might try to get her to eat. She won't eat any human food. Thanks, Carla. I am hoping that she just got full from eating a pretty good breakfast and will be hungry at dinner.
Click to expand...
I put FortiFlora on all of Dolly’s food. That’s how I got her switched to wet food in the beginning of her diabetes. I get good prices on it through ebay. Way too expensive from Chewys or Amazon.
 
Summer and Susie said:
Does anyone know if cerenia or ondansetron can be compounded into liquid form so I could syringe it into her mouth?
Click to expand...
There are folks that say don't do this, but I pulverize my Monkeydo's cerenia tablet, mix the powder into a few big drops of gravy and stick it into the side of his mouth.
My vet is fine with this. He does not drool when it is disguised in this manner. Liquids and pilling him do not go well.
He only gets 1/4 of a 24mg tablet which I cut using scissors.
It doesn't taste great, but the misery is short lived.
At it works.
Hugs,
 
Our Dolly Girl said:
The Mirtazapine transdermal was our miracle med as long as there is no nausea. It got Dolly on track a few times in the past.
Click to expand...
@Summer and Susie On the Mirataz, I have given Monkeydo a little when Cerenia has not kicked in after a few hours. Sometimes he vomits water when he is really nauseous, and I fear he vomited the Cerenia dose. Mirataz, along with being an appetite stimulant, also addresses nausea. On the rare occasion that I do this, I find that the Mirataz appetite stimulant properties do not cause him to eat and vomit which was a concern.
 
Ann & Sister said:
@Summer and Susie On the Mirataz, I have given Monkeydo a little when Cerenia has not kicked in after a few hours. Sometimes he vomits water when he is really nauseous, and I fear he vomited the Cerenia dose. Mirataz, along with being an appetite stimulant, also addresses nausea. On the rare occasion that I do this, I find that the Mirataz appetite stimulant properties do not cause him to eat and vomit which was a concern.
Click to expand...
Thank you for weighing in. My fear is that I do not have confirmed nausea. I have the Mirataz but have been warned not to use it if she is nauseous. So, what do I do? She has not been eating well and I don't know if it is nausea or something else. I'm just worried about getting her to want to eat again.
tired of trying to help her eat and get her back on track with the insulin.

I love your Sister's profile. I have a true fondness for black and/or tuxedo cats. Your kitty's picture is intense. Reminds me of my Simon, who I lost two years ago to CKD.
 
Summer and Susie said:
Thank you for weighing in. My fear is that I do not have confirmed nausea. I have the Mirataz but have been warned not to use it if she is nauseous. So, what do I do? She has not been eating well and I don't know if it is nausea or something else. I'm just worried about getting her to want to eat again.
tired of trying to help her eat and get her back on track with the insulin.

I love your Sister's profile. I have a true fondness for black and/or tuxedo cats. Your kitty's picture is intense. Reminds me of my Simon, who I lost two years ago to CKD.
Click to expand...
I do not understand the warning about nausea and Mirataz. It is prescribed for nausea and appetite both.
Sometimes cats do not provide ample evidence of being nauseous. My Monkeydo gives me lots of signs, and if I overlook them, we have barf-o-rama.
I am now giving him preventative Cerenia each day.
I had one thought about you saying Susie is not eating as much as she used to. Once a kitty is on insulin, the appetite does change. Sister used to be ravenous pre-diagnosis. Now she gets hungry, yes, but is easily satisfied with the small amount of high protein foods she gets because her pancreas is healing and working again. She actually leaves food in her bowl.
Yes, Sister's profile photo is intense. I tried to get a soft, feminine shot, but she only does "mean" or "bully" poses. ;)
Hugs,
 
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