9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363
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matya13
Member Since 2013
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 +5 368 pmps 363
Are we sure he isn't bouncing with the lower carb diet? Sometimes, people recommend taking the cat off insulin entirely with a diet change and starting over after a "detox"...but again, I'm no expert!!
Will be thinking good thoughts for the Tibbmeister!
Are we sure he isn't bouncing with the lower carb diet? Sometimes, people recommend taking the cat off insulin entirely with a diet change and starting over after a "detox"...but again, I'm no expert!!
Will be thinking good thoughts for the Tibbmeister!
matya13
Member Since 2013
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
I hope the more knowledgeable folks will post, but here's something for you to read in the meantime: http://www.diabeticcatcare.com/DCCCOK/Detox.htm It's mainly intended to people who are starting on TR, but I'd think the principles would be generally applicable to anyone who's changing their kitty's diet to a lower carb one.
Also, if you've never read Dr. Lisa Pierson's site, you really should! Here's the link to the diabetes-specific page: http://catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes
I hope the more knowledgeable folks will post, but here's something for you to read in the meantime: http://www.diabeticcatcare.com/DCCCOK/Detox.htm It's mainly intended to people who are starting on TR, but I'd think the principles would be generally applicable to anyone who's changing their kitty's diet to a lower carb one.
Also, if you've never read Dr. Lisa Pierson's site, you really should! Here's the link to the diabetes-specific page: http://catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
I wish I had profound advice to give on this topic but I honestly got nothing. But then again my kids are special cases either their diets were already changed by the time I adopted them or as in Cassanova's case he was so overdosed I didn't dare shoot for several days just to let a shed the size of Lake Michigan drain.
My concern would be the ability to get ketone checks daily if you do go with a detox.
Mel and The Fur Gang
I wish I had profound advice to give on this topic but I honestly got nothing. But then again my kids are special cases either their diets were already changed by the time I adopted them or as in Cassanova's case he was so overdosed I didn't dare shoot for several days just to let a shed the size of Lake Michigan drain.
My concern would be the ability to get ketone checks daily if you do go with a detox.
Mel and The Fur Gang
tibbs5
Member Since 2014
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
i know. i can't believe how much insulin he was on. yikes. tibbs has been switched over for a while now and his numbers are still high. i just increased to 1.75 2 days ago so the low carb should have taken hold by now??? what would you personally do if he was yours?
thanks Mel
i know. i can't believe how much insulin he was on. yikes. tibbs has been switched over for a while now and his numbers are still high. i just increased to 1.75 2 days ago so the low carb should have taken hold by now??? what would you personally do if he was yours?
thanks Mel
KPassa
Member Since 2012
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
As far as detoxing, if your cat isn't prone to ketones, it's not a bad idea when making a food switch. Otherwise, you find yourself chasing lower numbers as you try to keep up on the dose decreases. The only downside is that some cats can take up to two weeks before the food change fully impacts their BGs, so if you do a detox for a couple of days and think your kitty is now all set and these are the BGs on the new food, you might find yourself in for a bit of a surprise.
As far as detoxing, if your cat isn't prone to ketones, it's not a bad idea when making a food switch. Otherwise, you find yourself chasing lower numbers as you try to keep up on the dose decreases. The only downside is that some cats can take up to two weeks before the food change fully impacts their BGs, so if you do a detox for a couple of days and think your kitty is now all set and these are the BGs on the new food, you might find yourself in for a bit of a surprise.
tibbs5
Member Since 2014
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
hi Kay
i've been doing some reading and i think because he is Ketone prone it may be too dangerous for him. that is great info about it taking up to 2 weeks for the food to show effect. he actually had some better mid cycle numbers today so i am just going to keep a close eye on him. he had a low mid cycle of 213 so i was happy with even that. thank you
hi Kay
i've been doing some reading and i think because he is Ketone prone it may be too dangerous for him. that is great info about it taking up to 2 weeks for the food to show effect. he actually had some better mid cycle numbers today so i am just going to keep a close eye on him. he had a low mid cycle of 213 so i was happy with even that. thank you
KPassa
Member Since 2012
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
When it comes to changing food, ECIRD (Every Cat Is REALLY Different :lol: ). Some cats, the food change is reflected in BGs literally overnight. Other cats, the BGs gradually go lower and lower over a week to two week period, and still other cats, it doesn't look like anything is happening until BAM! numbers drop out of nowhere. Only way to know which one your cat is is to keep testing. ;-)
When it comes to changing food, ECIRD (Every Cat Is REALLY Different :lol: ). Some cats, the food change is reflected in BGs literally overnight. Other cats, the BGs gradually go lower and lower over a week to two week period, and still other cats, it doesn't look like anything is happening until BAM! numbers drop out of nowhere. Only way to know which one your cat is is to keep testing. ;-)
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
Hi,
You don't know me from Adam, and I never used Lantus. But I wanted to point out a couple of things that other people have already mentioned in this thread.
First, the link to DCC -
That site advocates "detoxing", usually before insulin is started, or before going to a "TR" protocol. The key to me is the TR protocol they follow. It IS NOT the Roomp/Rand TR protocol that Lantus people use here. It is the Hodgkins TR Protocol. Dr. Hodgkins is a vet who recommends using Prozinc insulin rather than lantus or levemir. In fact, she claims (I don't agree) that Prozinc is the best choice, and she doesn't seem to put too much stock in the study that led to the creation of the R/R TR Protocol. The protocol on their site is primarily for Prozinc cats. IMHO, it's actually a lot more aggressive than the R/R protocol is.
The detox process they advise:
24 hours is what they say it takes to detox the high carb food carbs. The other important thing - because they use Prozinc primarily, the 24 hours might be logical because Prozinc is NOT a depot insulin. There is no "shed" that needs to go away or drain.
Dr. Pierson says this about how long the carbs take to go away:
So Dr. Lisa seems to agree that the carbs go away very quickly.
I agree and disagree with what Kay said:
I am not sure, because I've never seen it, that it can take a week or two for the carbs to disappear.
But I agree strongly that the only way to proceed safely when changing to a low carb diet is to test frequently in case the bottom does drop out all of a sudden on the BG numbers. And if you decide to stop or significanly lower the dose at any time, testing for ketones is pretty much a "must do".
I think what I would suggest is to keep doing what you're doing. It looks like you are using the "SLGS" protocol? I would probably let the numbers you get direct your next step(s) based on the guidelines set forth in SLGS.
Just my opinion. Like I said, I've never used Lantus. I do however get antsy whenever I see someone thinking about withholding or severely reducing insulin dosage because of ketones. Bob was DKA and on his way to a 2nd episode when he crossed the bridge last year.
Carl
Hi,
You don't know me from Adam, and I never used Lantus. But I wanted to point out a couple of things that other people have already mentioned in this thread.
First, the link to DCC -
That site advocates "detoxing", usually before insulin is started, or before going to a "TR" protocol. The key to me is the TR protocol they follow. It IS NOT the Roomp/Rand TR protocol that Lantus people use here. It is the Hodgkins TR Protocol. Dr. Hodgkins is a vet who recommends using Prozinc insulin rather than lantus or levemir. In fact, she claims (I don't agree) that Prozinc is the best choice, and she doesn't seem to put too much stock in the study that led to the creation of the R/R TR Protocol. The protocol on their site is primarily for Prozinc cats. IMHO, it's actually a lot more aggressive than the R/R protocol is.
The detox process they advise:
24 hours is what they say it takes to detox the high carb food carbs. The other important thing - because they use Prozinc primarily, the 24 hours might be logical because Prozinc is NOT a depot insulin. There is no "shed" that needs to go away or drain.
Dr. Pierson says this about how long the carbs take to go away:
So Dr. Lisa seems to agree that the carbs go away very quickly.
I agree and disagree with what Kay said:
I am not sure, because I've never seen it, that it can take a week or two for the carbs to disappear.
But I agree strongly that the only way to proceed safely when changing to a low carb diet is to test frequently in case the bottom does drop out all of a sudden on the BG numbers. And if you decide to stop or significanly lower the dose at any time, testing for ketones is pretty much a "must do".
I think what I would suggest is to keep doing what you're doing. It looks like you are using the "SLGS" protocol? I would probably let the numbers you get direct your next step(s) based on the guidelines set forth in SLGS.
Just my opinion. Like I said, I've never used Lantus. I do however get antsy whenever I see someone thinking about withholding or severely reducing insulin dosage because of ketones. Bob was DKA and on his way to a 2nd episode when he crossed the bridge last year.
Carl
KPassa
Member Since 2012
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
Great point about them using ProZinc vs. a depot-insulin, Carl. :thumbup
Great point about them using ProZinc vs. a depot-insulin, Carl. :thumbup
Sorry, I should have clarified that this also depends on how fast you're switching out the food (i.e. taking 2-5 days to fully transition to the new food).Carl & Polly said:
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
Since you asked what I'd personally do if Tibbs was mine. Well ketones and DKA scare the bejeezes out of me so I would stay the course and test like a mad woman when I could. If I did withhold or substancely lower the dose you can bet they would never pee alone lol I'd be camping next to the litter box with ketostix in hand. And the slightest trace of ketones would have him right back on insulin.
Mel and The Fur Gang
Since you asked what I'd personally do if Tibbs was mine. Well ketones and DKA scare the bejeezes out of me so I would stay the course and test like a mad woman when I could. If I did withhold or substancely lower the dose you can bet they would never pee alone lol I'd be camping next to the litter box with ketostix in hand. And the slightest trace of ketones would have him right back on insulin.
Mel and The Fur Gang
tibbs5
Member Since 2014
Re: 9/15 Tibbs amps 433 pmps 363 detox? pls read amy's pos
thanks everyone. well i don't think i will be stopping his insulin. at 1.75 he had a nadir of 213 and i'm going to test on the pm cycle tonight too. and yes i have been camping out at his litter box but he's a tough one to catch so....... i just ordered a ketone blood test meter. it's a nova max that does glucose and ketones. i'm going to stick with my relion for glucose and use the same blood stick to get a ketone test with this new meter. i think this will be easier than scaring the crap out of my kitty by racing to the litterbox every time he goes near it. LOL. i'm going to give him a heart attack. LOL
thanks everyone for your advice.
thanks everyone. well i don't think i will be stopping his insulin. at 1.75 he had a nadir of 213 and i'm going to test on the pm cycle tonight too. and yes i have been camping out at his litter box but he's a tough one to catch so....... i just ordered a ketone blood test meter. it's a nova max that does glucose and ketones. i'm going to stick with my relion for glucose and use the same blood stick to get a ketone test with this new meter. i think this will be easier than scaring the crap out of my kitty by racing to the litterbox every time he goes near it. LOL. i'm going to give him a heart attack. LOL
thanks everyone for your advice.
C
Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)
I had a nova max ketone meter also because Bob wasn't peeing on a stick come hell or high water. The strips are pricey but it was well worth it. Peace of mind is priceless.
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