9/15 Charlie PMPS 306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.45 48.6 +7 50

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charliesmom

charliesmom

Member Since 2012
yesterday

Sunny day on the balcony this morning. It's amazing how much nice weather can have an impact on the soul. Today, I feel calm and relaxed. Saturdays can do that to a person. If only there were a way to have it be Saturday every day.

So far, Charlie's numbers are not coming down much. I will test again in awhile and will increase her dose to 1.5 units as recommended for this evening's shot.

Have a great weekend, everyone!
Jill
 

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Re: 9/15 AMPS 360 +2 355 +5 346

What a great set of photos. Charlie you so totally rock. :-D :-D Good luck with the new dose. Time for some yellows and blues Charlie! Enjoy your weekend Jill, sounds like it is off to a great start!
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie AMPS 360 +2 355 +5 346

Hi Michelle,

Mannie is a big old bundle of joy. I just saw his photos on facebook. What a little cutie pie. What cat likes bananas? Haha. He is too cute.

Jill
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie AMPS 360 +2 355 +5 346

What great lazy day pictures! It's a nice day here, too. I hope to get some patio time in later in the day. Have a good weekend!
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 8 +4.5 72 +5 65

Hi guys. Charlie had a pretty DRAMATIC drop between +2 and +4 so far tonight. Should I be concerned? We just increased her dose to 1.5. It's definitely having an impact, but now I"m scared to go to bed. What to do?

I fed her LC at PMPS and also when I noticed her bowl was empty at +3.

Jill
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72

Wowie. That's quite the change up.
I think we need someone to come online and advise that.
I don't see anyone at the moment.

Congrats on seeing green! :mrgreen:
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65

The last two times that you saw green on your ss. They both went up on the +6, was that a natural rise or did you feed?
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65

I understand. It's 12:15 AM. Thought I was going to sleep at 11 when I first started feeling drowsy. Then Charlie threw me a curveball as she always does.

She's hiding behind the TV stand right now, but a moment ago after last test, she didn't look so concerned about her lower numbers. See below.

This is a little bit the trouble with this cute kitty. She likes to look cute even in times of potential risk! ;-)
 

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Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65

8/28 -PM: Fed maple syrup at +5.
9/2 - Fed MC with maple syrup. Increased at +5. Likely due to intervention?
9/7 - Also saw green but not sure it increased at +6.
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65

Some cats can go lower than we think they should so it's pretty easy to get nervous when you start getting in numbers close to the
earned reduction.
I'm watching to see if she goes up next.
Were the 2 last green runs you had a natural rise after the low or did you give foods to raise the numbers?
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

See thread above. Last green runs mostly controlled runs with maple syrup. I will test again now at +5.5 and repost.
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65

Wow - what a drop. Looks like that new dose is doing it's thing. Are you doing the recovery like you did the last couple times Charlie went green after an increase?
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

Not sure what you mean by "doing the recovery"?

As Charlie's +5.5 test showed her even lower at 50, I just put a little maple syrup on her LC food, but she didn't seem to want to eat it. She did eat some tuna with each test, but now she's hiding behind the couch. I guess I should test again at +6? It's 12:40am right now so I can also do an immediate test again in 5 mins?

Jill
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

Do you have a higher carb food? not super high but if you had waited for the 49 you could have had a decrease.
She meant , have you given something to counteract the drops yet?
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

Hi Jill,
Rhiannon sent me a pm and asked me to drop by. Let me catch up, and I'll be right back.

Carl
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

Tried giving a little maple syrup on her LC food but she hasn't touched it yet. I will test again now as it's 15 mins later. Just to see where she's at. If needed, I do have an HC food that can be syringe fed. Or I have maple syrup + HC.
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

Thanks for looking out for us Rhiannon and Carl.
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

I would test again 20 minutes from the last test.
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

Sorry - I meant that you used maple syrup and HC to bring Charlie back up the other times, and I just wondered if you were doing the same thing this time. I see now from your post you did give a little but Charlie isn't biting. I'm a newbie, but I'd try to get Charlie to eat the food you provided. From the advice I've been given, test in 20 min.
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

I'm confused. Where did Charlie go lower than 50?

I would rather see you give Charlie a HC food with gravy unless she has a hard time with the gluten in that sort of food. These are great numbers -- and not dangerous. So, deep breath. You want to steer the numbers not slam on the breaks.

When steering the numbers, you want to test every 30 min. until you see 2 rising numbers without HC.

See this post: handling low numbers
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306 +2 256 +4 85 +4.5 72 +5 65 +5.5 50

Recap so far

PMPS 306 (shot 1.50u) fed LC
+2 256
+3 fed LC
+4 85
+4.5 72
+5 65
+5.5 50
+5.75 58
+6

What I don't know for sure what you've fed along the way.

Carl
 
Re: 9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+4.5 72+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58

My only concern with the food was that it appears Charlie only got tuna treats between tests and no other food, and then started refusing the food, with the numbers still falling.
 
Re: 9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+4.5 72+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58

Sorry guys. Maybe this is going perfectly actually. Test at +5.75 was 58 so she's going up.

All I've given is tuna with each test. As I said, I put maple syrup on Charlie's LC food (as I still haven't been able to effectively find any of the HC foods on binky's list here in Amsterdam yet). That said, Charlie never touched the maple syrup or her food so this increase is natural.

I read on the "shooting & handling low numbers" sheet the following:

"Low numbers are under 50mg or 2.8 mmol/L"

So when I saw Charlie get to 50 at +5.5 I just got concerned and posted as I wanted to be ahead of the game. I think I got a little worried earlier since Charlie had such a FAST drop from +2 to +4. If this has taken attention and needn't have, I'm sorry.

Right now Charlie is lying on the living room floor cleaning herself. VERY good sign, I think, right? :smile:
 
Re: 9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+4.5 72+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58

I think these things always need attention after all, you never know for certain. They lead in this dance.
 
Re: 9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+4.5 72+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58

Oh, don't worry that your "taking attention" or anything! Everyone here is so helpful and wants to be there for any questions you have, especially at a time when you are really worried about what's happening with lower values! Especially with such a drop! In my opinion, you did exactly the right thing in reaching out for advice, okay? It's good the last number went up, but not by much, so you need to keep testing to see a few more numbers increasing before you take a snooze. The gurus here will keep you posted on the specifics and will look out for you. :smile:
 
9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58+6.25 58

To be clear, Charlie didn't really "refuse" the food. I sort of look at it like "she didn't think she needed the food".

At PMPS I gave her half a can of LC. I didn't think it was enough and had planned on giving another 1/2 can or even 1 can before bed. Then at +3 I noticed her staring at her bowl, so I thought: "this is Charlie's system telling her she needs food" so I better give her a bit more. I then put out 1 can of LC just so she'd have enough throughout the night since we had just increased her dose tonight and I wanted a bit of a safety net.

Our testing methodology is to give tuna during the testing. Since the beginning, this is the only treat that we've tried that Charlie responds to. Also, she doesn't allow us to test and then give the treat. We give the treat and while she's eating it and is distracted, we test. So each time she had a test, she got a little bit of tuna.

Right now she looks great actually. She's up on the couch right next to me hanging out right ON TOP of my "handling low numbers" papers. So I will test again at 1:15am, but my gut tells me this is going in the right direction.
 

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Re: 9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58+6.25 5

+6.25 (1:15AM) BG = 58

:smile:

She's sitting here on the couch right next to me giving herself a bath!
 
Re: 9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+4.5 72+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58

I think your gut is well informed!!

If you can contact food manufacturers and find out the "as fed" values, there's a way to calculate carbs. I suspect that any food that has gravy (vs. broth) will be higher in carbs.

I want to make an observation. Given where Charlie's numbers have been, I'm glad she didn't drop below 50. In fact, feeding the number to allow you to keep this dose for a bit longer may help to give Charlie's body a chance to get used to hanging out in lower numbers. I feed Gabby's numbers to try to prevent her from earning reductions. I want her to surf green.
 
Re: 9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58+6.25 5

Recap so far

PMPS 306 (shot 1.50u) fed LC
+2 256
+3 fed LC
+4 85
+4.5 72
+5 65
+5.5 50
+5.75 58
+6.25 58

It's good that you have gotten to this point without having to carb her up, and with only tuna. When you consider meter variance, she's been right about the same since +5, so staying steady. Another test in 30 minutes would be a good idea, because you want her to be rising for sure before you assume all is okay. The key, I think, in the "handling low numbers" sticky is to not get complacent. Are you able to stay up a little bit longer?

Carl
 
Re: 9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58+6.25 5

I will stay up for sure and test again at 2AM. No problem. At this point, I'm actually quite awake and would rather see her in the safe zone so I can get a few good hours of calm sleep than rush to bed now and wake up worried.

One thing we haven't been doing too well in the past weeks has been measuring out the food to be sure Charlie gets the exact same amounts each day. From all the formulas people gave us, we figured out that she needs about 200 grams a day, but currently she may be getting more than that. It varies as we haven't been real disciplined about controlling this. We're just religious about giving the LC food ONLY.

As of tomorrow morning, we will start to be more disciplined in this as I think that this too can have an impact on regulation.

We can basically feed at AMPS and then we will need to try and get a feeder machine that can feed Charlie again at +4 since both of us are at work during that time. Then we can feed again at PMPS when we're home and we will use the feeding machine to trigger feeding at +4 again (or we'll just give a bit more right before bed).

Today I met with a Dutch woman whose cat had diabetes for 4.5 years. She went through the entire dance and gave us a lot of good advice. I think it was just nice to have a human being across from me who could relate. She told us about another vet office in Amsterdam that gives Lantus (Dierenkliniek Europaplein). She also reinforced to us a few principles that she learned:

- Food control is critical for regulation (give the exact same amount each day at fixed times)
- Hold each new dose for 3 days minimum (as sometimes it takes awhile to kick in). Wasn't sure if this applies if a cat goes low on day 1 though?

I WISH I tested Charlie at +5.25 tonight. If there was a time when she went lower than 50, that could have been it?

Tomorrow we will need to be away during the day and will back by PMPS. I think we will shoot 1.5 again in the morning and leave food out for her, but I'm wondering your perspective on something:

- I have heard that new doses usually don't kick in on the first cycle. They kick in on the 2nd cycle. If that's the case, is there more risk in the day tomorrow than there was tonight? Is leaving food out tomorrow adequate? Or should we revert back to 1.25 during the day and go back to 1.5 at night when we're home? I'm tempted to keep her at 1.5 and leave food out.

Jill
 
9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.25 58 +6.45 48.6

Test at 1:45am (+6.45) was 48.6! Going back down again, it seems.
 
Re: 9/15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+5.75 58+6.25 5

- I have heard that new doses usually don't kick in on the first cycle. They kick in on the 2nd cycle. If that's the case, is there more risk in the day tomorrow than there was tonight? Is leaving food out tomorrow adequate? Or should we revert back to 1.25 during the day and go back to 1.5 at night when we're home? I'm tempted to keep her at 1.5 and leave food out.
Click to expand...

I think the "1st cycle" thing applies more to a decrease than to an increase, because the depot is still at the "old level" and when you reduce, it can take a couple cycles for the shed to adjust itself down. Not sure how quick you would see the effects from an increase, but I have seen it happen quickly, and at other times, take a couple of days to show any effect. ECID applies, I'm sure. I'm not sure what you should shoot in the morning, but I'm thinking you would stay with the same dose?

Today I met with a Dutch woman whose cat had diabetes for 4.5 years. She went through the entire dance and gave us a lot of good advice. I think it was just nice to have a human being across from me who could relate. She told us about another vet office in Amsterdam that gives Lantus (Dierenkliniek Europaplein). She also reinforced to us a few principles that she learned:

- Food control is critical for regulation (give the exact same amount each day at fixed times)
- Hold each new dose for 3 days minimum (as sometimes it takes awhile to kick in). Wasn't sure if this applies if a cat goes low on day 1 though?
Click to expand...

It is awesome to be able to talk face to face with another person who has dealt with FD! I would agree that food control plays a big part. But I am not sure as far as giving the exact same amount at fixed times applies to every cat. You've probably seen with Charlie and lots of other kitties here that sometimes the timing of the nadir can change? Using food to manage curves is possible to some extent. The only real things we have any control over are food and the dose of insulin. Once both of those are put "in" we sort of have to just sit back and let the body do what it is going to do with them. We can't control that, and there are all sorts of inside and outside factors that effect our kitty on a day to day basis that will result in completely different cycles even when we control the food amounts and timing, and the insulin amount and timing. I think it helps to make sure as much as possible is kept "constant", but the amount of variables in the FD equation tend to work against us!

Carl
 
Re: /15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.25 58 +6.45 4

Recap so far

PMPS 306 (shot 1.50u) fed LC
+2 256
+3 fed LC
+4 85
+4.5 72
+5 65
+5.5 50
+5.75 58
+6.25 58
+6.75 49

OK, can you get her to eat something besides tuna? Anything higher than low-carb, but not syrup?
Carl
 
Re: /15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.25 58 +6.45 4

If you have medium carb (MC) or high carb (HC) food on hand you can use a bit right now if you'd like to keep her from dropping down further. The gravy should work. Try a 1/4 tsp, or a bit more and test in 20-30 mins. You don't want to give too much as it may raise her BG's too quickly. If in 20-30 mins there's no change, try a bit more.

Mark on your SS how much you gave and when so that the experienced folk can see.
 
Re: /15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.25 58 +6.45 4

She's definitely liking this dose.

With regards to the affects of a new dose increase, I think it can take about 1-2 (sometimes another day after that) for a kitty to settle into a new dose. It'll take some time for the shed to fill up to the new level, and then the kitty will settle down. In the meantime, see if you can find another wet food for Charlie that's either MC or HC to help her get her #s up. You don't want her dropping any further. Even a bit of wet dog food would work if you have nothing else. Keep in mind, though, that with the MC or HC food, and the new dose, Charlie will bounce a bit, and then settle down.
 
Re: /15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.25 58 +6.45 4

The food rule she gave you isn't affecting Shadow.
She free feeds partly and the only time I make her go without is between the +7 to PMPS part just to give the PMPS number a chance to get
a little lower.
 
Before reading this, I noticed that we had 1 can of "gourmet gold beef" on hand. I put about 1/2 can in front of Charlie and she ate the entire thing. Sorry I didn't see your advice to give a lesser amount. I reacted first & posted/read the board second as I was a little nervous when she dropped back to 48.6 again at +6.75.

I looked up the contents of gourmet gold beef on this link:

gourmet gold beef contents

My understanding is that if I add all these things together and subtract from 100%, I get the amount of carbs. Is this correct? If so, this seems to have 5.5% carbs. That's MC right?

Jill
 
Re: /15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.25 58 +6.45 4

there was a post the other day about that.
I think that fits in the low carb category being right there at 5%. I haven't done the calculations for any foods so I can't help with that.
I don't volunteer for math. :lol:
But it should give you some indication as to how Charlie reacts to low/med carbs.
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.45 48.6 +

Jill,
The list of data on the can doesn't really help, you need the "as fed" values which are usually only available by contacting the maker directly, but no matter. This from the website:
Meat and Animal Derivatives (Beef min. 4%), Cereals, Minerals, Various Sugars.
Click to expand...
and it sounds like there's gravy in the can? I'm guessing it's MC or even HC food so it should bring her numbers up.

Carl
 
Re: /15CharliePMPS306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.25 58 +6.45 4

Hi Jill,
If a food is not specifically marked as a paté, it probably has some kind of gravy or sauce. In the future, look for foods that say they contain "slices" of meat, or "chunks" of meat (I would think that in Europe the cans would have such things on the label so that people know what to expect). When you find one and you are in a situation similar to the present one, squeeze out the gravy through a strainer and feed only the gravy when you want to raise Charlie's bgs. The high carbs are in the gravy, not the meat. Also, by licking only gravy, Charlie will not get full, as she can get from eating the meat and gravy. You don't want her to get so full that she will not eat!

For now, keep testing every 20-30 minutes until you get two rising numbers. It would seem that Charlie should be close to her nadir and will start to come up, especially since she got a dosecrease. Good luck!

You are doing a great job!

Ella & Rusty

p.s. Charlie is beautiful. Her markings remind me of Stu (our GA).
 
There's a light amount of a sort of gravy in the can, yes.

I will test again at 2:30am in a moment. Hopefully then I can confirm that it's getting her numbers up.

If this is the case, can I safely go to bed as I need to wake up again at 7? Or, do I need to test again at 3 and 3:30 just to be sure and have 2 more examples of her numbers going up?

Also, should I leave out the other 1/2 can of the gourmet gold beef? Or leave no food until AMPS in a few hours?

Thanks for all your advice tonight everyone.
Jill
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.45 48.6 +

Giving 1/2 can was fine, as long as you get her #s up, which it did. That's ok that you reacted first, and it's perfectly normal to be nervous, too. As you learn Charlie, and what she's capable of, you'll eventually learn how much to give, and the panic won't set in as much over time. :lol: You did great! Just remember that she may be bouncing for a day or due to the combination of the new dose, and the food that you gave her. She'll go through New Dose Wonkiness (NDW) for a day or 2, or perhaps 3 days. Every cat is different. Keep up the excellent work! You both did great! :-D
 
Re: 9/15 Charlie PMPS 306+2 256+4 85+5 65+5.5 50+6.45 48.6 +

For future reference -

If so, this seems to have 5.5% carbs. That's MC right?
Click to expand...

When we refer to foods as LC, MC, and HC:

LC is anything 10% or lower
MC is between 10% and 18%
HC is above 18%

At least that is my understanding.
Carl
 
+7.5 test at 2:30AM was 97. She's going up.

Back on the couch lying here next to me. I will test again at 3am and if it's still going up, I will go to bed.

Leave more food out or no?

Thanks for the reminder about the LC/MC/HC. I read that before but that is among the MANY post it notes scattered throughout my house. Due to info overload, I sometimes forget things I've already read or been told. This diabetes management is taking some time to sink into the old noggin'.

Thanks also for the tip to squeeze out the gravy through a strainer. I will try that next time. This gourmet gold has chunks of meat with gravy. It's not a pate. So I think I will buy more of this stuff.

Jill
 
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