9/12- Lucky - Still not so good...

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all4mymarine

all4mymarine

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AMPS: 394
+4: 198
+7.5: 366


I'm curious to see what his PMPS is going to be. I'll try to get a +10 after we get home tonight. I just don't think he's liking these higher doses. He was giving these kind of numbers before when we got too high in dose. Maybe the answer is that he needs less and not more? Maybe instead of increasing from f1.2, I should have decreased to get better numbers? I have no idea at this point but I'll try anything.

I can't remember the difference in rebound and bouncing...are we seeing either of these possibly? He did see blue today....
 
The difference in rebound and bounce is the 64 million dollar question! I don't know that anyone has ever been able to explain it to my understanding.

But, one thing that is a classic sign of rebound--- is a bg test at the +9 period that is considerably higher than your +12/preshot. A lot of times with rebound, you will see a spike toward the end of the cycle that comes down at preshot. Normally, the spike is not minimal, but something substanially higher.
 
Do a board search on " rebound bounce". About a zillion hits. The terms seem to be used interchangibly (is that even a word?)
Most posts say they are the same thing. I always understood a bounce to be a short term thing and rebound to be more of a chronic thing. You can also google "somogyi effect". He's the guy who came up with the rebound theory about 90 years sgo.
Carl
 
only cause we just went through this
Shakes has been surfing the blues and greens for awhile
he has been sting in blues for hours at a time


until the last 2 weeks
he would hit the blues, eat like crazy and go back up to the 300's
that is why I thought rebound and I was right...
If he is bouncing right back up to higher numbers
I would back down a little
 
While I was looking up "somogyi", I found an interesting tidbit, called "Dawn Phenomenon".
This applies to human diabetics, and not sure if it would also apply to sugarcats:
Dawn Phenomenon is when a human diabetic wakes up in the morning with a higher BG than they went to sleep with at night. This wouldn't make logical sense, because while sleeping, you aren't eating, so there's no logical reason for your BG to increase. It seems that overnight, when your liver detects a drop in BG, it will dump glucose into your bloodstream and cause a "bounce" that you detect when you check your sugar in the morning. So, basically, "liver panic" due to not eating for 10-12 hours. Diabetics who see this happen are encouraged to eat a snack just before bedtime.

IF (big IF) a sugarcat goes for an extended period of time without food, then maybe their livers do the same thing? That might explain some inexplicable increases of BG numbers when no food has been given for some time.

It would appear that many small meals over the course of a day (like some people advise) are better than 2 reguarly scheduled meals....

Just food for thought,
Carl
 
As far as I understand it, bounce is slang for rebound.

From what I have read, Somogyi rebound comes in 2 forms - acute and chronic.

Acute is a one-cycle event, where there is either a drop to a low enough # that their body kicks in to defense mode to save the day, or a steep drop in which their body thinks it needs to kick in to prevent dangerous lows. With acute rebound, they will often spike high right after the low or steep drop, and then can either start coming back down soon after that (hence the pattern of the +12 being lower than the high +9), or they may stay high all through the next cycle.

Chronic rebound supposedly is when they have an extended period of acute rebounds, their body just freaks out and throws glucagon (? what's it called again?) at everything. Chronic rebound looks like high flat numbers. From what I have read, there is very little known about chronic rebound - it is hard to pin down, disputed, etc. etc.

Liver training is the fake-out rebound, where their body *thinks* it's in scary low numbers when it's not. So if they go down to a pretty nadir of 80 say (in a cycle with no steep drop) and get all freaky-freaky and throw rebound numbers at you, even though 80 isn't dangerous.

I think it's also important to know that a low number or a steep drop does not necessarily result in rebound. From what I have seen, the first line of defense is that they get hungry, and will eat to raise their BG to a safer level. So just b/c they hit a nice green number and then end up with a higher +12 doesn't necessarily mean rebound. Sometimes it's just that the insulin has worn off.

When it's Somogyi rebound, you need to lower the dose. When it's liver training, you don't want to lower the dose, you want to keep them in the greens til it settles down.

From what I have seen, people generally do a LOT better when they don't worry too much about rebound. It tends to mess with your head and make you doubt every move, I know that's what it did to me. IMO if you are getting low numbers or if you are seeing overly steep drops then you need to reduce the dose, simply b/c you don't want low numbers and you don't want overly steep drops. The rebound is just a side effect. If it's liver training (i.e. you are not seeing low numbers and the drops aren't too steep), then you just ignore it.
 
Thanks everyone, I do understand a little better. I did read up on Somogyi and I do understand that concept. Just wasn't sure about the difference between that and a bounce. So now I know that they are meant to be the same thing (rebound and bounce). I understand liver training too. The hard part is figuring out which one is going on.

I didn't get a +10 tonight :( I was actually about an hour and a half late with his insulin tonight. I just totally forgot! He usually bugs me for dinner and it reminds me but our schedule was all thrown off and Lucky was snoozing so I didn't think about it. I thought for sure that his BG was going to be in the 400's but nope, it was 332 @ +13.5, which is lower than the 366 we got at +7.5. He sure appreciated his dinner and pigged out as usual.

One part of me says I need to lower back down but another part of me wants one more day to see what happens. I just need to be totally sure. One more day and if the same thing is going on, I'm going to lower. Does that sound reasonable to do?
 
Oh and I read that some cats will rebound even if they hit somewhere in the 150's, so it doesn't even have to be super low numbers.
 
I've read about the Dawn effect and I believe thats what Henry has. His AMPS is always considerably higher than PMPS.
He does eat during the night. When I have checked him at various times after his PM shot, he will get a good drop, then shoots back up a lot by AMPS. He sometimes is quite a bit lower in the 2 hours before AMPS.
Because of his much higher AMPS numbers is reason for switching him to a 10/14 shooting schedule instead of a 12/12 schedule. His AMPS did come down some from this change, but still are much higher than PMPS regardless of insulin dose it seems.
I'm not sure if it looks like rebound or not for Lucky. He did drop about 50% at nadir and his AMPS and PMPS seemed in similar range.
This sugar dancing is so complicated!
 
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