8 Aug | Girlie | AMPS 227; +1=205; +2=113; +3=106 & Food carb confusion

[Girlie's mom]

Condo: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/7-aug-girlie-amps-hi-709-day-3-in-black.181841/

Girlie's numbers are out of the black, finally. I gave her ZiwiPeak Lamb (4 carb(?)). Should I give her something in the 7-9 range, or just see how she goes this morning?

Food carb questions:
I've been looking at various food charts/carb ratings and am a bit confused as the carb ratings/levels are so different for the same type of food. I know with TR that the carb should be under 10% (or should it be under 5%? not clear on that one), but is that

• Dr Pierson: carb % as calories
• Carbs % as fed (Australian list)
  
• DMA (example would be Tanya's chart)

So if I look at these three lists for one food, I get these different carb levels:
ZiwiPeak Beef:
Dr Pierson Carb 10 / Phos 298
Aussie list Carb 3 / Phos 296
Tanya DMA Carb 13.3 / Phos 1.38
Ziwi website TNA Carb as fed 3% / Phos 0.41 DMA: Carb 13% / Phos 1.82

Wellness Core Beef, Venison, Lamb:
Dr Pierson Carb 13 / Phos 266
Aussie list Carb 2 / Phos 171 (says product of Canada on can)
Tanya DMA Carb 7.24 / Phos 0.85

ProPlan Savor Chicken and Rice in Gravy:
Dr Pierson Carb 13 / Phos 266
Aussie list Carb 4 / Phos 255
Tanya DMA Carb 3 / Phos 1.05

I'm so confused!

 

[Mandy & Rex (GA)]

I can't help with the food question. Did you shoot this morning? That field is blank. I'm glad Girlie saw a blue today!

 

[Girlie's mom]

I can't help with the food question. Did you shoot this morning? That field is blank. I'm glad Girlie saw a blue today!

Yes, 0.5 insulin: I put my numbers in the World chart, and it looks like that didn't automatically go over to the US chart.

And I'm getting better! I test/feed/shoot within 10 - 15 min max (as I have to wait for Girlie to finish eating); some days I can do it under 10 mins. I still can't do your whirlwind 5 minutes, though!

 

[Mandy & Rex (GA)]

Yes, 0.5 insulin: I put my numbers in the World chart, and it looks like that didn't automatically go over to the US chart.

And I'm getting better! I test/feed/shoot within 10 - 15 min max (as I have to wait for Girlie to finish eating); some days I can do it under 10 mins. I still can't do your whirlwind 5 minutes, though!

I look at the US chart. That's too bad the numbers aren't transferring over every time.

Remember I'm shooting Rex right after I put down the dishes when he's eating. If I had to wait, then I'd be similar with your times.

Have you gotten any more tests after that blue?

 

[Marvin's Mom - Nat]

wow she really broke that bounce.....

 

[Girlie's mom]

wow she really broke that bounce.....

Should I be doing a snoopy dance, Nat? I'm so happy to see her out of the black (let's hope that stays...). I'm only feeding food that I know for sure is LC.

With the TR, do I am for under 10% or under 5%? I can't seem to see that on the protocol page...

 

[Girlie's mom]

I look at the US chart. That's too bad the numbers aren't transferring over every time.

Remember I'm shooting Rex right after I put down the dishes when he's eating. If I had to wait, then I'd be similar with your times.

Have you gotten any more tests after that blue?

15 minutes to go for the next test...now let's see if she can stay a little bit level and not go down to the 60s or low 70s. I wouldn't mind a day that was a wee bit stable and flat, even if it is just yellows and blues. But I guess that - doing TR - I should be hoping for dark greens. Let's hope she can be a little less multi-coloured today...

 

[Mandy & Rex (GA)]

With the TR, do I am for under 10% or under 5%? I can't seem to see that on the protocol page...

With diabetic cats, stay below 10% carbs. I don't know why 3 charts say different things.

 

[Marvin's Mom - Nat]

I'm so happy to see her out of the black (let's hope that stays...).

If she keeps wanting those blacks, I suggest that you reach out to @Wendy&Neko there are different things that can be done to try and minimize the amount of time in the black. Girlie seems to go back to black. I don't have much experience, but with how well she does mid cycle. she's still new to all this, so she may need the time to get used to all this.

 

[Marvin's Mom - Nat]

ok, that post I just wrote makes no sense.... maybe I should have a drink and see if that helps.....

 

[Girlie's mom]

With diabetic cats, stay below 10% carbs. I don't know why 3 charts say different things.

Thanks re confirming the 10%. The three very different values for the same food do my head in (but any number does my head in: I can't do numbers) as a difference between 3% on one chart and 16% on another is a big difference.
Test: 106 (blue)
So this is good, right? Drops aren't too big yet?

 

[Girlie's mom]

ok, that post I just wrote makes no sense.... maybe I should have a drink and see if that helps.....

No worries, Nat! She's now 106 (5.9) so still blue...

 

[Girlie's mom]

I was just looking through her chart: she doesn't seem to have a predictable AM nadir, does she? She can go quite low at +4 but also at +7. Or has she been bouncing too much to be able to figure out what her nadir is?

I'm letting her eat what she wants and not trying to feed her curve - she's not having a curve right now that I need to feed, is she?

 

[Girlie's mom]

I was just reading Dr Pierson's explanation re: calculating carbs:

"You will see conflicting carbohydrate values listed for the same food depending on how the value is calculated. There are three basic methods used to calculate the value of an individual nutrient:

1. As a percentage of food weight (includes water)
2. As a percentage of dry matter
3. As a percentage of calories

When determining the carbohydrate content of a food, method 2 and 3 will yield roughly the same number."

I am just utterly HOPELESS with math and numbers, though, so any discussion of them does my head in. What do the rest of you go by when deciding whether a food is low carb and okay to feed?

 

[Mandy & Rex (GA)]

That's a great number. She's staying fairly steady after the initial drop. I wouldn't worry about getting the curve as it's very gradual. You may see dark greens around the nadir. Cats don't have nadirs at the same time every day. I couldn't figure it out for Rex, but I knew if he dropped at +2 or +3 that I would have to watch for a while.

 

[Girlie's mom]

That's a great number. She's staying fairly steady after the initial drop. I wouldn't worry about getting the curve as it's very gradual. You may see dark greens around the nadir. Cats don't have nadirs at the same time every day. I couldn't figure it out for Rex, but I knew if he dropped at +2 or +3 that I would have to watch for a while.

Just curious: tomorrow I have to go in to work for a meeting at about this time. If I see similar numbers tomorrow, and no huge drops, would I be able to consider her safe enough to leave for a few hours? Or - given her dramatic diving history - should I make sure to leave out some MC or even a small amount of HC food just to be safe while I'm away? I'm still terrified of low, low greens.... I know I can deal with that if I'm at home, but it's not being here that's my worry.

I'll test her again at +4 to see where she's going. I'm still a bit unsure about how often I need to test on TR and - again - taking her dramatic dive history into account. How do all of you decide how closely to watch and monitor?

 

[Mandy & Rex (GA)]

The +4 will be very informative. It's hard because both ECID and Know Thy Cat apply here. We don't have much data where she's not bouncing.

But let's say +4 is 100. I would offer LC to keep her surfing. That's what I would do if she has similar numbers tomorrow. How long would she go without testing during your meeting?

 

[Tanya and Ducia]

Whoa, you do have a bouncy kitty!
My cat used to do early in the cycle drops by a lot - I put a cap on it by front loading her food. She eats at pre-shot, at+1, +2, +3 and a smaller portion at +4 sometimes - and that's all until +7 snack and +9 supper - 2 tsp LC. I wonder if Girlie would benefit from this feeding schedule, too? I haven't seen dives for a while, thank goodness, and it smoothed her bounces, too.

How do all of you decide how closely to watch and monitor?

I plan my testing based on +2 mostly.

 

[Girlie's mom]

The +4 will be very informative. It's hard because both ECID and Know Thy Cat apply here. We don't have much data where she's not bouncing.

But let's say +4 is 100. I would offer LC to keep her surfing. That's what I would do if she has similar numbers tomorrow. How long would she go without testing during your meeting?

I'd probably be gone for ca 3 hours at this exact time...
122 @ +4! Good kitty...

 

[Girlie's mom]

Whoa, you do have a bouncy kitty!
My cat used to do early in the cycle drops by a lot - I put a cap on it by front loading her food. She eats at pre-shot, at+1, +2, +3 and a smaller portion at +4 sometimes - and that's all until +7 snack and +9 supper - 2 tsp LC. I wonder if Girlie would benefit from this feeding schedule, too? I haven't seen dives for a while, thank goodness, and it smoothed her bounces, too.

I plan my testing based on +2 mostly.

Yes, she's bouncy, bouncy, bouncy. I asked the diet question as I wasn't sure whether some of this might be due to diet...? Getting the carb values straight is a bit confusing for me given the different charts and the fact that I'm in Australia, so there might be some differences with the US values.

I was doing testing at +2, but then she decided to enter the deep dive competition (before the blacks), so I was trying to get ahead of her early and see if she was dropping earlier.

Girlie grazes, and she'll usually eat some food on the hour. The LC doesn't seem to make a huge difference if she's diving, so it appears (so far) that I have to give her a tsp or so of MC or HC to keep her from going down too quickly. Initially, getting her to eat enough was really difficult, so I would tempt her frequently just to get enough into her.

Since we started on the Mirtazapine, though, things have been looking up. She's not ravenous by any means, but she's more interested in eating, and she tends to finish off a 3 oz can of food by +4 - unheard of earlier. I generally take her food away by +4 - +7 (at the latest) if she hasn't finished it off earlier.

How much would your cat eat in the morning by the +4 cut off point?

 

[tiffmaxee]

With your food lists only the Wellness is quite different. You want to look for 200 or less phosphorus on Lisa's list and under 1% using DM. For me managing CKD along with FD was impossibly hard. Does she have early CKD or trying to keep it from rearing its ugly head ? Max did great until I changed his food for FD. Good to find foods with lower phosphorus. Good luck.

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

know with TR that the carb should be under 10%

Yes, under 10% for our sugar babies DX with diabetes.

How much would your cat eat in the morning by the +4 cut off point?

This answer would be different for different size cats and their feeding schedules. For instance, my cat Bubba is 16.5 lbs and he eats about 6 oz of raw food a day and by +4 he would have only had about 1.5 oz of food since I am feeding him 1.5 oz of raw food 4 times a day ( every 6 hours) . So, I guess what I am trying to say, is that is going to be different for different size cats on different feeding schedules. No one fits size feeding amount and schedules.

I am going to give you this formula for how to calculate how much food to give your cat. I really like this formula . It is the lbs of your cat X 13.5 +70.

As an example: A 10 pound cat would be 10 X 13.5 =135 +70= 205 calories a day. So, using that formula, divide up the feedings a cat into the calories a day.

Then take into consideration any other health issues that your cat has to work into what you are feeding.

 

[Tanya and Ducia]

How much would your cat eat in the morning by the +4 cut off point?

8 or 9 tsp of Tiki cat wet food.

ETA: just seen Bobbie's post and agree with her completely. My Ducia ideal weight is 9 lb. She is a bit over so we are in the losing weight mode. My feeding gives her below 200Kcal/day. To maintain I'd feed over 200 - 215 Kcal/day.

 

[Girlie's mom]

With your food lists only the Wellness is quite different. You want to look for 200 or less phosphorus on Lisa's list and under 1% using DM. For me managing CKD along with FD was impossibly hard. Does she have early CKD or trying to keep it from rearing its ugly head ? Max did great until I changed his food for FD. Good to find foods with lower phosphorus. Good luck.

Thanks for clarifying that re: the phosphorous - that really helps. The carbs are quite different, though, aren't they, depending on the different calculations used in the different charts?

Girlie is 18 years old, so the vet says that there's no way that she doesn't have some renal failure. Her creatinine is 190, so on the edge. She's still drinking way more water than she should, as well. She could have higher creatinine and urea now due to the diabetes and all of the stuff she's been through since 20 June. Right now the vet isn't concerned but it is something she wants to keep an eye on. Does that make sense? We're going in on 15 Aug to get a blood test to check her Phenobarbitone levels; should I ask the vet to do other tests then as well?

Re: feeding a diabetic CKD cat: that does look pretty challenging from what I've been reading, but it does seem like an awful lot of cats here have CKD in their profile as well, so I'm not sure...? How is Max doing?

 

[Girlie's mom]

Yes, under 10% for our sugar babies DX with diabetes.

This answer would be different for different size cats and their feeding schedules. For instance, my cat Bubba is 16.5 lbs and he eats about 6 oz of raw food a day and by +4 he would have only had about 1.5 oz of food since I am feeding him 1.5 oz of raw food 4 times a day ( every 6 hours) . So, I guess what I am trying to say, is that is going to be different for different size cats on different feeding schedules. No one fits size feeding amount and schedules.

I am going to give you this formula for how to calculate how much food to give your cat. I really like this formula . It is the lbs of your cat X 13.5 +70.

As an example: A 10 pound cat would be 10 X 13.5 =135 +70= 205 calories a day. So, using that formula, divide up the feedings a cat into the calories a day.

Then take into consideration any other health issues that your cat has to work into what you are feeding.

Thank you SO MUCH for being so explicit re calculating that! My numbers-phobia brain appreciates all the help it can get.

Girlie is currently 8 pounds (3.64 kg), so that calc works out to 178 cal, which is spot on with what the vet originally calculated for her, suggesting she get 176 cal/day. She's old and not very active, so I guess she took that into account as well.

So this morning with the ZiwiPeak Lamb and Mackerel she's had ca 71 calories. Because she's not a big eater, I have to find a high calorie food that also is low carb and low phosphorous (if possible)... that's my wish list!

Plus, although I'm at home now, I'll be back at work full-time soon, so she'll have to just eat what I leave out for her during the day, I guess.

 

[Girlie's mom]

So back to food and carb values: do all of you look at the dry matter carb value or the as fed carb value to decide whether the food is under 10% and okay? Or do you just go by Dr Pierson's chart?

 

[Tanya and Ducia]

I go by Dr. Pierson's chart.
But here is the link to Tanya's blog - many use it instead for their CKD kitties. Tanya's list is for US but hopefully it'll help somewhat. I see your signature lists CKD starting.

 

[Girlie's mom]

I go by Dr. Pierson's chart.
But here is the link to Tanya's blog - many use it instead for their CKD kitties. Tanya's list is for US but hopefully it'll help somewhat. I see your signature lists CKD starting.

Yes, but that's where I get confused re: just the carb levels, because Dr Pierson uses % as cal and Tanya uses DMA. So

Tanya: Wellness Core Beef, Venison Lamb is 7.24 carb
Dr Pierson: Same food = 13 carb

So I'd avoid that food if I were looking at Dr Pierson's chart, but I'd buy it if I were looking at Tanya's chart (simply looking at the carb levels right now). Sigh...

 

[Tanya and Ducia]

I do understand. We are very fortunate having Dr. Pierson...
Have you spoken with any fellow Aussies? They might help with sorting the food out.. Do you know anyone?

 

[Girlie's mom]

I do understand. We are very fortunate having Dr. Pierson...
Have you spoken with any fellow Aussies? They might help with sorting the food out.. Do you know anyone?

Yes, @Bron and Sheba has been a lifesaver and real support since I started here on FDMB.

There is an Aussie food list, but that makes things even more interesting: the same Wellness Core Beef Venison, Lamb is 2 on that list. BIG sigh!

 

[Tanya and Ducia]

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Using Dr. Pierson's chart, you want carbs under 10% and phosphorus under 200 (or as close as possible). That phophorus number you want is under 1% dry matter on Tanya's site. Tanya's site is dry matter carbs, but you want carbs per calories under 10%. Until you get the b/w with phosphorus numbers, you may be able to go a little bit higher phosphorus. I ended up feeding raw most of the time to Neko - it was just too hard finding a wet food that met all the criteria. Then of course she had to add heart disease (low salt) to the picture and I wanted to reduce the amount of gums/carageenan for the IBD/lymphoma and increase calories.

Where are the Wellness cans made? If the US or Canada, then you can use Dr. Pierson's chart. Unfortunately they changed their formula recently, hence now higher numbers.

Nice cycle today - way to break the bounce.

 

[Girlie's mom]

I'm doing a happy, happy dance! Girlie is 184 (10.2) at +6 - no deep dive yet. Good Girlie! She's up 62 points in two hours, but I'm assuming that's okay - that's not a bounce, is it?

 

[Girlie's mom]

Using Dr. Pierson's chart, you want carbs under 10% and phosphorus under 200 (or as close as possible). That phophorus number you want is under 1% dry matter on Tanya's site. Tanya's site is dry matter carbs, but you want carbs per calories under 10%. Until you get the b/w with phosphorus numbers, you may be able to go a little bit higher phosphorus. I ended up feeding raw most of the time to Neko - it was just too hard finding a wet food that met all the criteria. Then of course she had to add heart disease (low salt) to the picture and I wanted to reduce the amount of gums/carageenan for the IBD/lymphoma and increase calories.

Where are the Wellness cans made? If the US or Canada, then you can use Dr. Pierson's chart. Unfortunately they changed their formula recently, hence now higher numbers.

Nice cycle today - way to break the bounce.

Thanks so much, Wendy re: the carbs difference. I rang Purina today re: the ProPlan, and they said they'd be more than happy to send me the TA (TNA) of any food I wanted - just send them an email - so I'm going to pin them down re the ProPlan and the Fancy Feast. I've just sent an email to Wellness to ask where their foods are produced; if the US, then I'll just go with Dr Pierson's chart, although the increased phosphorous levels are disappointing there. Do phosphorous binders help with that? I'm just starting to read up on all of this...

I've also been reading Dr Pierson's page in depth today about feeding raw food and the preparation, etc. Girlie actually ate a raw chicken heart the other day (to my utter shock!) - though I'd cut it up into tiny pieces for her (ick, ick, ick). Still, I never thought she'd eat raw food. Given that CKD and/or renal issues are on the horizon, I'd really like to switch to raw if I could. I'll take baby steps and see how she goes...

Did it take you long to get Neko onto raw food?

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Can you read the Wellness cans to see where they are manufactured?

Did it take you long to get Neko onto raw food?

About half a nano second. She was an unregulated acrocat and would eat anything. The civie took a little longer, maybe a week. But I also did it slowly, starting with a tsp on the side, and slowly increased the amounts of raw and reduced the canned.

 

[Girlie's mom]

Thanks for the hugs, Tanya!

 

[Girlie's mom]

Can you read the Wellness cans to see where they are manufactured?

About half a nano second. She was an unregulated acrocat and would eat anything. The civie took a little longer, maybe a week. But I also did it slowly, starting with a tsp on the side, and slowly increased the amounts of raw and reduced the canned.

How did you handle the specific needs of Neko with the civvie? I've also got a civvie (Max), and life has been really challenging (to put it mildly) as I've been monitoring everything going in and out of Girlie so closely. He's been in exile which he's tolerating pretty well considering he's a velcro cat. Girlie finds having me all to herself fantastic and smacks him if he comes near when I do let him into the inner sanctum....sigh...

 

[Girlie's mom]

Wow! That was quick. Wellness just replied and asked what foods I'm interested in so they can share the carbohydrate content with me. I'm surprised that they're so forthcoming given some of the things Dr Pierson mentioned about how hard it can be to get answers. They said that the bulk of the foods are produced in North America, but some packed in Thailand (those are the Divine Duos according to the packages).

@Wendy&Neko I just took out my magnifying glass: the Wellness Grain Free are "a product of Canada" (hence the North America answer). Are the Canadian Wellness the same as the US ones (which would mean I could use Dr Pierson's list)?

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Certain size Wellness tins are made in Canada, other sizes in the US. They are supposed to be the same formula, but there seems to be a slight texture difference. Some cats prefer one over the other of course! Sounds like you can use the Dr. Pierson list.

How did you handle the specific needs of Neko with the civvie? I

I fed them the same food. I also fed in opposite sides of the kitchen and had to do a lot of patrolling/civie protection at the beginning. She would wolf her food down then try to eat his - and he would let her if I didn't block her. Other than that, I had no specific Neko needs. After testing, they both got treats. He waited in his spot while she got tested. Neko was remarkably predictable on times she used the LB and didn't mind me following her in when I wanted a ketone test. He was a stealth LB user. We have two laps in the house. The civie was a momma's boy only. Neko liked both of us and I tried to make sure I had some quality Neko time during the day. After dinner TV times was his.

 

[Girlie's mom]

Certain size Wellness tins are made in Canada, other sizes in the US. They are supposed to be the same formula, but there seems to be a slight texture difference. Some cats prefer one over the other of course! Sounds like you can use the Dr. Pierson list.

I fed them the same food. I also fed in opposite sides of the kitchen and had to do a lot of patrolling/civie protection at the beginning. She would wolf her food down then try to eat his - and he would let her if I didn't block her. Other than that, I had no specific Neko needs. After testing, they both got treats. He waited in his spot while she got tested. Neko was remarkably predictable on times she used the LB and didn't mind me following her in when I wanted a ketone test. He was a stealth LB user. We have two laps in the house. The civie was a momma's boy only. Neko liked both of us and I tried to make sure I had some quality Neko time during the day. After dinner TV times was his.

Sounds like you are a great cat mom. Right now, Girlie would say I'm the best cat mom, and Max would say I'm a bit average as he can't sleep with us. Oh joy!

Yes, I was looking at the little tins that are produced in Canada.

Good grief: I've been scrolling quickly through Dr Pierson's list and there are very few foods that I can get here in Oz that are under 200 for phosphorous AND that are low carb... They had better both decide that a raw food diet is for them, I guess!

Girlie was looking for food, so I gave her some Holistic Select and snuck some raw chicken hearts in there. She had the funniest expression on her face when she realized she'd gotten raw food! Maybe it's the texture: pureed would probably appeal more to her. She likes mushy food...

Girlie has no problem with me doing whatever I like when she's using the LB, thank goodness; makes getting wee samples very, very easy. At least something is easy!

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

Just a monkey wrench, but don't get too too hung up on low low carb.
Under 10% is good..... it doesn't necessarily get better to find all 1 % ....
finding the better ingredients, avoiding carageegan and those other problematic add in's is more important.


In my cat, I learned over time that she wasn't so carb sensitive and that her numbers actually went down if she got 8 or 9 % .

You learn it by trial and error.... and keeping notes....

With my new kitties, I am avoiding all seafood and so many of the other proteins foods have fish added even tho' the name of the food only says chicken.

 

[Girlie's mom]

Just a monkey wrench, but don't get too too hung up on low low carb.
Under 10% is good..... it doesn't necessarily get better to find all 1 % ....
finding the better ingredients, avoiding carageegan and those other problematic add in's is more important.


In my cat, I learned over time that she wasn't so carb sensitive and that her numbers actually went down if she got 8 or 9 % .

You learn it by trial and error.... and keeping notes....

With my new kitties, I am avoiding all seafood and so many of the other proteins foods have fish added even tho' the name of the food only says chicken.

Thanks so much for those tips. Going through Dr Pierson's list and trying to find low carb and low phosphorous that's available here in Australia is like finding the Holy Grail...

I don't know yet how sensitive Girlie is to carb levels as I'm still sorting out what's what here in Oz; some foods from Dr Pierson's list are okay, but others aren't. So far, I've found three! Trying to laugh here. ..
I do know that I messed up and have been giving her Fancy Feast that was higher in carbs (12-14), and I still saw some blues, but that was a while back. I did notice when she was diving a lot that LC didn't seem to slow her down much: could that indicate that she might not be as carb sensitive?

My vet said that she's showing the signs of some type of renal failure, but that we won't be able to really know from tests until it's more advanced. I might have bungled up what she said to me, but does that sound right? More research clearly needed on this on my part...