8/8 Chester's amps 441, +3=398, +4=386, pmps 404

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Jaye and Chester

Jaye and Chester

Member Since 2010
Chester is driving me NUTS! Things aren't working as hoped. Anyone have a suggestion?

I don't have a condo from yesterday, but the jist is this: I've been trying a compromise since the big emergency room Convenia issue. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=49128

We're trying to get Chester to put some weight on...he's a skinny boy (not ultra skinny, just not needs a pound or so). I had him at a low dose of between .5 and .25 units 2x only on canned LC but he NEVER leveled out. We would easily go from 300-400 in the am to 70 by mid-morning. Lots of rollarcoaster rides here.

Decided to try LIMITED kibble (lower carb Evo), some crushed and mixed in with canned and the rest free feed. I've restricted the free feed until 9:00 (+3.5) because he seems to have an early-ish nadir, so he's not getting any kibble as his shot is on the up-swing. All this with raising his dose bit by bit to counteract the kibble. I'm past thinking I'll every get the "Poster Boy for a Bad Pancreas" off the insulin. Since we started this change, he's now up to 1.25 units.

It's been working...and not working. Except for being too high and some weird occasional spikes (high amps, for instance) he's been more level than I've ever seen him. He's never has issues with Ketones before. I just tested him. They are not in the danger zone, although are higher than I like, which is, of course, none. The ketone meter says 1.1 which either means that something might be happening or he is unregulated. Well, we know that's the case. I think I'll give him some fluids this morning just in case. I called the vet...said to give fluids, watch him, up his insulin tonight and maybe postpone his dental.

Numbers for the day before yesterday and yesterday:

amps: 384
+3 = 348
+4 = 319
pmps: 348
+4 = 281
+5 = 320

amps: 460
+ 4 = 350
pmps: 365
+3 = 344
+4 = 331

I would LOVE these numbers to stay flat like this but, of course, be lower. The scary thing is going from such a low dose to potentially quite a bit higher. Chester is a pukey boy...just vomited breakfast in fact (canned LC) so I opened his kibble a bit early for him. I like having the kibble available for situations like this, expecially when I start back to work (school) in two weeks. But it scares me to death to have him on such a high dose for the very same reason...if he pukes and then doesn't bother to eat, that's a LOT of insulin in him.

PLUS (to make matters worse) he's got a dental on Thursday. Vet is suggesting normal breakfast at 5:00 a.m. (minus the kibble snacking through the morning), half the regular insulin dose, then a late dental (1:00 p.m. so the food is out of his system).

I'm getting frazzled (again) with this little guy. Help!
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

I'm not sure that I see what you're seeing on Chester's SS. Gabby can be the poster kitty for bouncing. She's gone from the 400s at AMPS to 40s back to the 400s at PMPS (see 11/2/2009). What I do see is a lot of red and pink.

Given the range and your observation that these are high, flat numbers, I do think it's the kibble that's in part responsible for both high and flat. You're feeding something that is elevating numbers and taking a long time to be metabolized. That's your choice -- I just don't think it's a good strategy. I also don't think Chester's on that high of a dose. Compared to the dose he was at when you started his SS, this is much, much less. Dose is relative. You need to give as much insulin as your cat needs and based on these numbers, Chester needs more insulin. He certainly needs more insulin if you are going to continue to feed kibble. Is there any reason you can't leave out canned food if he wants to graze? Also, is there any chance the vomiting is due to a food allergy? How about trying Chester on a LC food that's a novel protein (e.g., duck, lamb, quail)?

As far as the dental, there's nothing that says you need to give any insulin.
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

I've tried leaving out canned food (in fact, I do because I have lots of other kitties that need to eat during the day). I've watched Chester a lot this summer, both before the kibble and now...he really doesn't touch the canned. You're right about the dose..I looked at a few other spreadsheets and they have much higher does than Chester and that's what I guess needs to happen. Tonight we definitely up the dose. I like the flat numbers that the limited kibble has been giving him and it does give me a some peace of mind that there is a food he can munch on that he likes that's available at least part of the day.

I've tried duck and venison...turns his cute little nose away. I've tried fortiflora on all different types, doesn't help. Parmesean cheese...he'll give it two licks maximum. He's not even a fan of turkey. I've tried baby food even. He'll only eat chicken. Doesn't even like seafood much (and he calls himself a cat?) :)

That dang dental is a Catch 22. It might help regulate him if his gingivitis is gone, yet a struggle with giving him a dental when his sugar is so out of whack and he's feeling poorly. Especially after the nightmare convenia issue of two weeks ago. (That's going to take longer for me to bounce back from than him, I think.)

If you don't think it's a problem to keep upping his dose, I'm fine with that. I'd rather have him on a higher dose and be nice and flat than the lower one and have to worry about him rollercoastering all day...and losing weight, which was one of the reasons for the reinstating some kibble...just to get him to eat. Vet did not like his weight at last check-up (which, with Chester, seems to be just about every week).
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

Hi Jaye,

I am Beth and Atlas is my diabetic cat. I don't think I've stopped in this condo before so Hi!

First of all...breathe. It is important that we breathe, because that often helps us step back and see a bigger picture of what is going on with our cats.

Now I am sure you will get a few on here chattering away at you about the kibble. I won't necessarily as I still use kibble on a very limited occasions. The draw back is the excessive carb bump. I too use EVO as it seems to be the lowest of the kibble out there, but it sure does seem to bump the kitties way too high for the claims they make.

The kibble amounts I use are literally counted out by pieces. 20 pieces here...20 pieces that are alternated with LC or Med Carb canned foods in a 5 chamber timed feeder from PetSafe. When do I use the EVO? Not daily. When Attie is running low into his pre-shot and decides to stay hanging low and I need to leave! And by low, I am talking about below 100, you are not there yet. I look to the kibble not to spike him up, but to level him out at a slightly higher range 100-250.

Now, looking at your SS those high numbers are kibble carbs. So, I would say to you...really cut back on the amount of kibble. Kibble spikes them up and then it causes a crash in the next cycle. Sort of think of being like a candy bar and a sugar rush...and then the sugar let down...then the demand for more sugar...and the let down. You see how it creates the 'swing' and or rebound appearance. The kibble is making it difficult to regulate your cat.

Your dose isn't very high really since you are using kibble. If you keep using kibble in the amounts your are ...expect to need more insulin. That is the result...more insulin and an unstable blood glucose.

Take a look at Atties spreadsheet and you will see we had to work our dose up and then come back down. (several times :? )

And I agree with Sienne...Chester needs more insulin.
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

Jaye and Chester said:
I've tried leaving out canned food (in fact, I do because I have lots of other kitties that need to eat during the day). I've watched Chester a lot this summer, both before the kibble and now...he really doesn't touch the canned. You're right about the dose..I looked at a few other spreadsheets and they have much higher does than Chester and that's what I guess needs to happen. Tonight we definitely up the dose. I like the flat numbers that the limited kibble has been giving him and it does give me a some peace of mind that there is a food he can munch on that he likes that's available at least part of the day.

I've tried duck and venison...turns his cute little nose away. I've tried fortiflora on all different types, doesn't help. Parmesean cheese...he'll give it two licks maximum. He's not even a fan of turkey. I've tried baby food even. He'll only eat chicken. Doesn't even like seafood much (and he calls himself a cat?) :)
Click to expand...

Nature's Variety makes a canned chicken. It is medium carb. 13%. Attie has IBD so I have to be very careful what I feed him, but we're able to maintain decent BG's on the 13% carb. stuff or the raw foods. A trick I use with Attie is I will sometimes crush 4-5 pieces of EVO kibble between two spoons and sprinkle it on top of his wet fuds. Maybe that would work for Chester too?
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

The problem we're having with sticking to low carb canned food is the weight issue. He won't eat enough of it to maintain a healthy weight. We're sacrificing body mass to keep his insulin level down and keep him on low carb food. We've been trying that almost two years now and it's just not working for him.

I've been trying the crushed kibble in with the canned. He'll eat it a bit more but I can't say that he's sold on it.

It's not that we haven't tried to keep him strictly canned low carb. I've been doing that diligently for a long time (well, unless he snuck some when someone left the kibble bowl open accidentally) and that's what has caused the weight issue.

I appreciate all these suggestions. Thanks for taking the time to offer them!
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

Carbs and calories are not necessarily correlated. You need to look at the calories in the food. If Chester is losing weight on a LC diet, give him more food. Are you sure your other cats aren't shoving Chester away from his bowl?
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

That's been the problem with him...not the shoving, just the eating.

I've not seen anyone shoving him or keeping him from eating in any way...we have lots of bowls around the house on each level (gets to be quite a task keeping things straight sometimes!) He just doesn't like canned food. I stay with him when he eats, doing everything I know to coax him. Spoon feed him when necessary, put the food into little balls and make it move around like it's alive (I'm thinking this makes me sound a bit like a kook!) Follow him around the room with it. Often times I have four or five bowls out for him to try. I put it on his nose to tempt his appetite. I've even resorted to cyproheptadine and even mirtazapine to stimulate his appetite. Nothing so far has kept him eating but the kibble.

He's a "high maintenance" kitty.... :(
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

Sienne and Gabby said:
Carbs and calories are not necessarily correlated. You need to look at the calories in the food. If Chester is losing weight on a LC diet, give him more food. Are you sure your other cats aren't shoving Chester away from his bowl?
Click to expand...

That's right and EVO is actually a high calorie kibble. If you read the bag you actually feed less? I learned that from our Innova Representative when they came to do a product rollout at our store. They even provided special little EVO measuring cups. :lol:

Jaye I am sorry Chester is being so hard headed about canned fuds. Like I said the canned fuds we're using right now with Attie are med carb, not LC either. I just find the EVO, which recently claimed to be 6.6% carbs, is not better than the canned MC for Attie. The canned MC anecdotally seems to work better.

We have to work within the parameters of what our cats will eat sometimes. My MudCat is a kibble kat, she won't even do tuna juice! But, she is not diabetic either and her weight is well maintained on the EVO. Some cats just do not like the pate canned. Perhaps trying something else a bit higher in carb, not pate, might help?
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

I'll check out the Innova for sure.

I hate to sound difficult. Well, actually, it's Chester who is difficult, I'll eat just about anything! We've done every kind of canned food, from the expensive stuff to the cheapest. He's just not a good canned eater. When he's really hungry he'll clean it up, but usually so fast that it comes right back up a few minutes later (or even sooner). That's why I like having that kibble on hand, especially when I'll be away from home.
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

Hi guys .. You have gotten a lot of good advice here on feeding suggestions .. just wanted to say I know you are getting frazzled and frustrated .. it is hard work trying to account for this while still watching that while balancing whatevers .. you are doing a great job and I know chester appreciates all you do for him!!
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441, +4=386, Questions (again)

Awww, thanks!

Ketones are down considerably. From 1.1 which was getting a tad scary to 0.3 which is close enough to normal not to worry me. His bg is down a tad. Sub-Q fluids are a wonderful thing! Don't think I'll ever be without them.

Looking forward to raising his dose tonight.
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

Just wanted to stop by and say hello and welcome! I wish there was a quick answer on the food issue. Tarragon was a crunch addicted cat and I never thought he would eat canned. I am happy to say that, after two months, all kibble was gone and it is only canned now. Hopefully you will find the right trick for your house to make that happen.

Have a wonderful day!!
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

Hello Jaye and Chester!

I don't have any 'tricks' up my sleeve for getting a kitty to eat wet food...just some thoughts. Boo (my healthy kitty) stopped eating wet food when I started Lantus shots with Stella (my sugar cat). She just refused and was quite bull headed. I tried everything you suggested (minus the little balls like 'live' food :lol: ) for about a month.

If you think about it, cats are a lot like people. If you tell someone to do something under stress, they are not going to want to do it. So, for a couple of days when Boo was around and I fed Stella I would just call out both of their names and not try to get Boo to eat...knowing Boo was watching me put down her bowl of food too (so she knew it was there). After a few days of this, I called out both of their names, put down both bowls and dropped Boo in front of hers and walked away. Miraculously, she has returned to eating wet food again. All I am saying is I think your kitty is stressed. Also, ask your pet store if you can return cans of opened food if your kitty won't eat them. Try every low carb food until you find one that you can drop your kitty in front of and he will eat. Mine was Wellness Chicken & Herring. After Boo ate that, she will now eat any wet food I drop. It was frustrating...you can do it!!! :-D
 
Re: 8/8 Chester's amps 441 - Questions (again)

I wish it were two months...we're going on two years! He likes the Blue Wilderness Chicken and will eat that almost exclusively, but only about 1/2 can and that's if I beg, plead, and offer to buy him a car. ;-) Meanwhile, I'm trying to get my final stage CRF cat to eat anything and have to be careful that Chester doesn't get into that, because the higher carb the better as far as she's concerned.

* He's on the hunt for his kibble right now, little sneak....but it's after his nadir so no more for him. *
 
Raised his dose to a fattish 1.5 units. He ate LC for supper...and has so far kept it down. Will be watching him through the evening with fingers crossed that he comes down a bit.
 
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