8/5 Sushi: AMPS ~342|+2 ~270|+4 ~307

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Sushi said:
Hi!
Here we are again, with a whole new batch of questions. Here's our history so far:
Hi! Our Story + LOTS of questions! : ) Mon Aug 1
In danger of hypo? Wed Aug 3
So I've been testing; I'm trying to do a good thorough curve* today. I've done some more reading and research, so I have a better (but not complete!) understanding of how to interpret our results. I have a spreadsheet set up here. Our schedule** was thrown off yesterday as I had to leave town at 2pm and didn't return until 11pm. Schedule changes are one of my hugest questions and challenges, but let's take one thing at a time.
**Normal Schedule -
5-6u [AM] 6:45-7ish [PM] 5:30
My main concern at the moment is why/how did he go from 270 to 307? Shouldn't his BS be going DOWN right now? Thoughts? Interpretations? Advice?

Other questions:
- *How do you do a thorough curve? Test every 2 hours, right?
- What a curve for a normalized cat look like?
- What should BS be before insulin in a normalized cat?
- How much of a change from hour to hour or injection to injection is too drastic? It would be too drastic if I gave Sushi a big ole dose in an attempt to drop him from 342 to 120, right?

Thank you!!!

good job getting over here, getting the testing going and getting a spreadsheet going! wahoo!
 
your questions:

everytime you change anything to do with the routine - the dose changes or the time of the shots change, you'll see dose wonkiness. you're not going to worry about individual numbers unless they go to low. what you're doing now is gathering information so you can look at trends. just guessing, i'd say that the 270 might've been measuring a little low - your trend is still overall lowering from the preshot this morning until the +4. trends are what's important. with his shot time being off last night he might even go up today - that's not important in the big picture.

oh lord, no, don't give him a big old dose!!!!! not for any reason. just hold the dose flat and try to keep the other factors stable. we'll help you get him better.

here's the link on what a "normal" curve would look like. if sushi reads your computer you might see this eventually - but we all work to get it there. actually, i'm not going to repost it - i think ann gave it to you a couple of days ago. the place that you'll find these answers is in the starred "stickies" at the top of the lantus forum. try the one that says "new people start here" first.
 
oh yeah, and it's a marathon, not a sprint. you have time. the only time it's a crisis is if sushi goes too low - which is under 50. as you test over the next few days you'll see patterns emerge. that's going to tell all of us a lot about sushi's dose and how he's doing.

for now, read those stickies. i test every 3 hours from 7am til 10pm unless punkin does something that grabs my attention. it's amazing how you can work life around your cat when there's a need.

if sushi drops below 50 then you can hit a 911 on the post icon and we'll help you through it. until then - read and ask us lots of questions!

great to have you here ashley!
 
Thanks for this Julie!

julie1220 said:
actually, i'm not going to repost it - i think ann gave it to you a couple of days ago. the place that you'll find these answers is in the starred "stickies" at the top of the lantus forum. try the one that says "new people start here" first.
It probably doesn't seem this way, but I've really put a lot of effort into trying to find answers on my own. It's just so much to wade through! And there's not an easy way to "search" for one specific answer. I also keep running into situations where I know I read or saw something before, but I can't find it again (like the "normal" info)! Def my biggest frustration with all of this right now, and I'm pretty resourceful and tech savvy.
I feel like I've read the "new people start here" a million times; if it's not too much trouble, would you mind posting the link? If not, I'll scour some more and hopefully find it. Thank you so much for everything!
 
Great!!

julie1220 said:
the only time it's a crisis is if sushi goes too low - which is under 50.
...and I don't think I have to be worried about that with his #s being so high. Am I right?

But can you tell me overall how you think he's doing? Or is it too early to tell? How rough of shape is he in? How is he doing on a scale of 1(dying) to 10(normalized)?
He really started to worry me on Tuesday. It was like he was taking a few steps toward the shape he was in when he was first diagnosed. He's still not eating great, he's warm, sleeping more than usual, and sighing/groaning (but sadly that's now normal since he was diagnosed. I even call him my little "hound dog," that's what he sounds like!), and most of all, he's lost a lot of weight. I fear it's muscle mass weight. He feels more bony and I'm pretty sure his leg muscles have gotten smaller.
...Plus the concerns I mentioned in my very first post:
Sushi said:
- He doesn’t groom himself. He may wash his face after eating, but that’s about it.
- He sheds a LOT. I live in South Louisiana and it’s in the dead of summer, but I feel as if he’s shedding too much.
- He started to develop minor dandruff right around the time summer started.
- Since he was diagnosed, I’ve noticed his eyes glow/reflect more. He has “laser beams coming out of his eyes” about 75% of the time when I look at him. Is this normal?
- He squeaks/whimpers when he poops.
- About half the time, he does not poop in the litter box. There doesn’t seem to be a rhyme or reason for when he does, when he doesn’t, or where he decides to go (he goes all over the house!). This is a PROBLEM!!!
- His poop SMELLS!! It’s so pungent it will burn your eyebrows off!
I just don't know how worried I should be or if I'm already heading in the needed direction to fix all of this! ; )

>>Just tested at +6 and got 187.
 
Melissa & Tarragon said:
Welcome Ashley & Sushi! We just wanted to stop by and say hello! Look forward to getting to know you. You are in great hands.
Hi!! Oh you too! I'm SO glad to be here and so thankful for everything and everyone already! : ) Look how beautiful Tarragon is!!!
 
Hi Ashley, I'm glad you got over here. There are a lot more eyes that have experience w/ Lantus dosing.
It would be too drastic if I gave Sushi a big ole dose in an attempt to drop him from 342 to 120, right?

Yes! Other insulins may be given for bringing a too high number down quickly, BUT NOT LANTUS! Lantus is a long lasting insulin that is more or less timed release. A big dose can cause a hypo situation that can last for hours!!! That is dangerous! We don't aim for instant results here but long term tight control.

Really for a cat that is just starting his numbers are quite good!! :-D :-D :-D You had a blue number and the shed is still filling!

I notice on you SS (congrats by the way :-D ) that you changed from 5 units to 6 units this am. I cannot stress enough that you hold steady dose! Even when we do adjust doses we only do it by .25u at a time, in very rare cases by .5u. Never whole units, it is too easy to miss the right dose. You will be amazed at what that .25u can do.

When we give too large an increase it can actually raise the BG numbers, actually any increase can make them go wonky for a few days. But a cat getting too much insulin can have very high numbers just like a cat getting too little.

Consistency is key w/ Lantus.
 
It is still pretty early Ashley, but I will say you are definitely headed in the right direction. I know exactly what you are going through and how much anxiety you are having. When Tarragon was diagnosed, he had went from 13 pounds to 7.5 pounds, did not groom himself, had terrible dandruff and a really greasy coat, peed A LOT, ate everything he could find, his poop stunk up my house. I cried and cried thinking I would have to do the unthinkable because there was no way I could do this.

Now, he is my fluffy pretty kitty, back up to 11 pounds (Yay!), pees a normal amount, doesn't even finish his plate most days, etc. I tried to work with the vet and follow what they wanted me to do. However, ECID (Every Cat Is Different) and they were using a generic rule and they weren't used to owners who home test. So...along came The Feline Diabetes Message Board (FDMB), who my vet referred me to, and I started following the protocol. I was SCARED TO DEATH and wasn't sure if I was capable of figuring all this out without killing my cat. It hasn't been all roses, but my cat is very much alive and well! :lol: We all mess up, but it is a very strong community and they will sit up with you all night long if they have to to get you and Sushi through it.

I hope this helped ease your anxiety at least a little. It is a lot of info and it is scary, but you will do great and you will learn things about yourself and your cat that you never would have known.
 
julie1220 said:
i test every 3 hours from 7am til 10pm unless punkin does something that grabs my attention.
Every day?!?
>>Do I have this right? The minimum is to test before every dose, and the maximum is to test every 2 hours during the 12 hours between doses?

Really for a cat that is just starting his numbers are quite good!!
Thank you for this assurance! Not to nit pick, more of a point of clarification: Sushi has been on insulin for 7 months now. Does that change your perspective at all?

I notice on you SS (congrats by the way) that you changed from 5 units to 6 units this am. I cannot stress enough that you hold steady dose! Even when we do adjust doses we only do it by .25u at a time, in very rare cases by .5u. Never whole units, it is too easy to miss the right dose. You will be amazed at what that .25u can do.
Thanks so much for this. So how should I proceed since I gave 6u this am? Stay at 6u?

...you will learn things about yourself and your cat that you never would have known.
Well put! I've already found that to be true over the past 7 months since Sushi was diagnosed, and I know we have a LONG way to go from here!


Okay, here's a big one: I feel like I have a handle on hometesting and I'm ready to move to making the switch to canned food. Should I go ahead with that now? Wait a while? How should I proceed? Give me a timeline.
 
The sooner you can switch to canned the better!!! You will need to really test Sushi's BG's with the switch, but it is really necessary!
 
The minimum is to test before every dose, and the maximum is to test every 2 hours during the 12 hours between doses?
Yes the minimum is to test before every shot and you should try to get at least one more in between shot in. This can vary so you will see a better picture of when the nadir occurs. It doesn't have to be every three hours, we call that a mini curve. Staggered over a few days you can hit most of the bases. Some of us test hourly or even every half hour if our cats are going very low. Look at Tess's SS from 8/1 and 8/2. (but don't take what I do w/ Tess as a standard, ohmygod_smile ) Then she bounced from the low numbers and I didn't test as much the next 2 days. You will gradually get to know what to expect: if Sushi tends to drop early, get an early test in: if his nadir seems to be later, the early tests may not be needed.

As I said before, I like to get a +10 or 11 test, especially if I haven't tested much during the cycle, to see if the BG is rising or falling. It gives me a heads up. Especially in the beginning, shooting a falling number is not recommended. But ECID and Tess is an exception to that rule as she has a late onset and very late nadir. I know from all the testing we have done I have wiggle room.

Sushi has been on insulin for 7 months now. Does that change your perspective at all?
You are just getting started on the Tight Regulation Protocol, this is basically like starting over.

I notice on you SS (congrats by the way) that you changed from 5 units to 6 units this am. I cannot stress enough that you hold steady dose! Even when we do adjust doses we only do it by .25u at a time, in very rare cases by .5u. Never whole units, it is too easy to miss the right dose. You will be amazed at what that .25u can do.
Thanks so much for this. So how should I proceed since I gave 6u this am? Stay at 6u?
I think you need to see what Sushi does today. Get a +11 test and post it w/ "dose ???" in the subject line and that question in the post. Others who have a lot of experience w/ dosing will weigh in. What was your normal dose lately?
I'm ready to move to making the switch to canned food. Should I go ahead with that now? Wait a while? How should I proceed? Give me a timeline.
With a cat already on insulin we have to be careful, because once the dry is out of their system BGs can drop suddenly. Now that your are testing you will be able to catch any drop early. :-D I switched Tess by putting a small amount of wet beside her bowl of dry, she loved it. Gradually over a week I gave less dry and more canned. Some cats refuse to eat canned food. They have been brainwashed into not recognizing anything but kibble as food. That is a much harder switch. Dr. Lisa has a great page on transitioning to wet.

You are doing great, this just takes patience. :roll:
 
Hi Ashley,
Not going to comment on any of the dosing advice. These people are much more familiar with Lantus that I'll ever be. I will however try to reenforce a couple things you've been told on this thread.
1 - You shouldn't increase or decrease the dose except in very small increments. 1/4 or at most 1/2 unit changes.
2 - You need to establish some degree of consistancy with dosages. Keep them the same for several days in a row, and continue testing every day, as many times as you can fit it into your schedule.
3 - You MUST test before every shot, and you CAN test every 2 hours (or 3 or 4 if that's the best you can do with your schedule).

If you can hold the dose the same, and provide plenty of data points on your curves and add them to your SS, then experienced lantus users will have a heck of a lot more information at hand that they can evaluate prior to giving good advice. You're looking for PATTERNS, not just NUMBERS. Like many people have said, the "bad" number is the really low one that can indicate a hypo situation. Higher numbers can be dealt with much more easily than really low ones.

What I thought I could add was in reference to your questions about "how do I remember where I saw all these posts or threads when I want to read them again later?"

Bookmark everything. Create new bookmark folders in your browser and if you see something you want to be able to find quickly later, they will be there.

I would personally recommend that you install Firefox Browser if you don't already have it. There is a great "add-on" for Firefox called "Read It Later". It enables you to save a page, and very easily locate it later off a dropdown menu. You can even save things for offline use, so you can revisit web pages without even being connected to the 'net with Read It Later.

Those are 2 things that I have used heavily to save and retrieve information I've gathered from FDMB. I think that'll work for you too.

Carl in SC
 
well i'll be - i didn't know about the "read it later" feature. i use google chrome most of the time now, but used to use firefox. cool


here ya go on the links:

Lantus & Levemir New to the Group? Please Read

Tight Regulation Protocol

This is the part of the Protocol that you're going to be following for right now:

WHEN FOLLOWING A TIGHT REGULATION PROTOCOL WITH LANTUS OR LEVEMIR:

Kitty should be monitored closely the first three days when starting Lantus or Levemir.
Blood glucose levels should at least be checked at pre-shot, +3, +6, and +9.
More monitoring may be needed.
It will be necessary to test kitty's blood glucose levels multiple times per day.
Learn the signs of and how to treat HYPOGLYCEMIA and prepare a HYPO TOOLBOX.
Test regularly for ketones and know about DIABETIC KETOACIDOSIS (DKA).
Use U-100 3/10cc syringes with half units marked on the barrel for fine dosing.
Feed a high quality low carb canned or raw food diet.
Feed small meals throughout the day. Some kitties adapt well to free feeding.


Many Lantus and Levemir users in this forum have been successful following a somewhat modified version of this Tight Regulation Protocol for the last few years. These "general" guidelines are based on anecdotal evidence and personal experiences of laypersons frequenting the forum.

"General" Guidelines:
Hold the initial starting dose for 5 - 7 days (10 - 14 consecutive cycles) unless the numbers tell you otherwise. Kitties experiencing high flat curves or prone to ketones may want to increase the starting dose after 3 days (6 consecutive cycles).
Each subsequent dose is held for a minimum of 3 days (6 consecutive cycles) unless kitty earns a reduction (See: Reducing the dose...).
Adjustments to dose are based on nadirs with only some consideration given to preshot numbers.

Increasing the dose:
Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose.
After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.
After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.

My gut reaction about your dose is maybe you should go back to the 5units you did last night and this morning and stay there - but i'd like Sienne, Jill or someone more experienced to look at it and tell you. If no one answers you by the time you need to shoot today, i think go with 5u - then stay with it. Your testing is going to tell us how good of a dose that is. once you have a dose tonight you're going to stay with that dose for 5-7 days. i bolded the part above. if i were you i'd probably try to test at +3 and +6 along with the preshot tests during this time - you're going to be changing food and you want to keep a good eye on how sushi's doing with the transition. so only one change at a time - this time it's the food - unless he goes low, then the dose will change too. you get the idea, it's a balancing act and we don't want to tip sushi too far with too many changes at once. safe is the most important thing.

You're going to need to transition sushi off of dry food - but do it over the course of several days. I think i saw someone suggest 5 days earlier for making the gradual transition. Again, see if one of the more experienced people have a thought on that. gradually increase the percentage of canned food and decrease the amount of dry food. if sushi doesn't take to it easily, there are ideas in that link ann gave you for making the changeover. you can pulverize the dry and use it as a sprinkle on the wet.

You can add water to sushi's food. diabetics are considered dehydrated, so water is good. cats have a poor thirst mechanism so it's good for you to help him on that.

as far as the overall health questions - i think grooming seems to be the first signal that a cat doesn't feel good. i think it took about 2 months for punkin to begin grooming again, but he seems to have stopped again. his hair is greasy and icky. i buy pet washclothes at the pet store that are ok for cats and help with that. then i can delude myself into thinking he feels just fine, because other than the greasy coat he does seem fine.

dandruff - it's probably related to not grooming. i also use a fine tooth comb to comb out excess hair. i had a spare human comb from one of my girls - a rattail comb - that is now punkin's.

stinky poop - when you change his food that will change. what goes in is what comes out. hurting when he goes - maybe he's a bit constipated and it just plain hurts. there are folks here who give their cats miralax daily to help them with that. i don't have experience about it. not going in his box - might just be related to him not being regulated. also not sure on that one.

i have no idea about the eye thing. although my vet said punkin could go blind overnight from cataracts from too high of sustained blood sugar. maybe sushi's developing cataracts? i really don't know.

overall - i think he's doing really good. this is a marathon process - when you posted as a possibly hypo the other night i thought he might be in crisis. if you hadn't started hometesting none of us would have known. one thing about lantus is that it's a slower, gentler insulin and sometimes cats don't seem to show hypoglycemic signs until they are in their 20's. that's incredibly dangerous. punkin registered a 32 not long after i started testing him and he had zero other signs of being hypo. you don't want to risk brain damage or death on your cat, so you truly can't just rely on other symptoms besides measuring the BG to tell you how sushi is doing. that's why we're all such testing fanatics. you don't have to go overboard, just have to become educated and test enough to know sushi's safe.

Q: does he breathe noisily? like wheezy at all? he looks pretty good sized in his avatar - are his feet big? how much does he weigh? has he grown any in the past few months? he really is a gorgeous cat - looks positively regal!

i've only been in this since february - so while i'm trying to answer your questions there are people with a lot more experience than me, and if they tell you otherwise, like about the dose, for example, i defer to them. i don't know it all and am just trying to be helpful as far as i do know.
 
almost forgot - have you gone and bought some low carb canned food? do you need the list and info on how to figure that part out?

and i have sympathy about the looking for stuff - truly - i felt the same way. you read til your eyes fall out. we'll help you. after a while you learn where the info is, but in the meantime, just ask us. btw, someone suggested printing out some of these basic things and i thought that was a super idea!
 
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=49283

here ya go - that's the link for the question about his dosage today. just to keep it together.

yes, you keep one long condo per day, just change the subject line on the first post of the day. that way each time you change the subject line any subsequent comments will have that subject line until you change to a new subject line. does that make sense.

then the next morning you open a new condo and link yesterdays. in theory, you end up with a perfect string of condos strung together! some someone giving you advice today will click yesterday's link and be able to read what was up yesterday.

ok, your scheduling issues. go ahead and just lay out the whole thing so we have a complete picture and can try to figure it all out.
 
Hi Ashley!

I agree with what several people have suggested -- stick with the 5.0u dose.

Has Sushi been on Lantus the entire 7 mos. since diagnosis? This will make a difference with regard to how long you need to stick with this dose.

As Carl mentioned, it is also true for Lantus that you do not want to increase in whole unit amounts. Lantus dose changes are typically in 0.25u amounts. If you increase in large increments like 1.0u, it's very likely that you will miss an optimal dose or end up giving your cat too much insulin. It is very true for Lantus that consistency is key. It will help Sushi if you are consistent with your shot times and with dosing. Lantus will teach you patience if that isn't already part of your repertoire.

As far as testing, a pre-shot test is essential. It is the only way of knowing whether it's safe to shoot. Do not assume because you tested at +10 or +11 that you don't need to get a pre-shot test. Shooting a dropping number if you are new at this is a lesson you may not be ready for. We ask that you also get, at the bare minimum, one additional test per cycle. Lantus dose decisions are based on the nadir, not on the pre-shot value. If you don't get spot checks during the cycle, you will not have the data to make a good decision about adjusting the dose.

There is a huge amount of information that people have provided. I wouldn't be surprised if your head was spinning. I'd suggest you read the "New to the Group" and the "Tight Regulation" sticky notes to start. And please, ask questions. If you have a question, edit the subject line in your first post in the thread. People will come by to respond.
 
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